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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 4:35:42 PM
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awaken
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A manifestation is something made visible, or evident in the senses world. So the manifestation is the Holy Spirit... making himself evident through believers in this world. Right?
So what most people are saying is that we still have the Holy Spirit, but He is not manifested the same as He was back then. I do not see where scriptures supports this.
The Holy Spirit came upon people in the Old Testament and it was manifested through the miracles/power.
The New Testament is the same way....Acts 1:8...But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you....
Now people are saying that the Holy Spirit is out of Power? That the church(believers) do not need this anymore? I see that we need it more today than ever.
So the purpose of the Holy Spirit is the same.......the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is the same...Those that do not believe in the manifestations....will not walk in them. The purpose of the gifts are for , the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ.
What part of the purpose do you feel is not needed?
< Message edited by awaken -- 6/24/2008 4:42:00 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 8:55:09 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Please do some simple research on glossalalia over the past 2000 years
I have, and I've found that it did not occur in the mainstream Church until the revival here in America. I took a Bible college class on pneumatology from a Professor who was very open to both sides of this argument, and I trust his opinion on it entirely. He said that, aside from very few fringe groups who were borderline, if not overtly, heretical, there seems to be no recorded example of tongues being practiced in the Church for most of Her history.
quote:
The Holy Spirit came upon people in the Old Testament and it was manifested through the miracles/power.
It also came upon select individuals to craft the Tabernacle. Does that still occur today?
quote:
So what most people are saying is that we still have the Holy Spirit, but He is not manifested the same as He was back then. I do not see where scriptures supports this.
Do you believe we still have Apostles today, just like the twelve and Paul?
quote:
Now people are saying that the Holy Spirit is out of Power?
Anyone who says this is a fool, and arguably a heretic, heh. But just because His power is expressed in a different way does not mean that the power is lesser.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 11:56:02 PM
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awaken
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The Old Testament is a shadow of what was to come...we are now the tabernacle of the Holy Spirit. We house Him and He gives us the power to change.
I am still studing the office of an apostle and prophet.....so I can not comment on this right now.
If the power of the Holy Spirit is manifested different now, what scripture backs this up. THe only difference is that he is in us and not just upon us.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 12:06:54 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2655
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quote:
The Old Testament is a shadow of what was to come...we are now the tabernacle of the Holy Spirit. We house Him and He gives us the power to change.
Taking this to its logical conclusion, given the meticulous nature of the Tabernacle's construction, do you believe every Christian will be exactly alike?
Also, how can you say
quote:
If the power of the Holy Spirit is manifested different now, what scripture backs this up.
Yet also claim this?
quote:
I am still studing the office of an apostle and prophet.....so I can not comment on this right now.
It seems to me that if the Holy Spirit is operating exactly as it was during the early Church, you should be willing and ready to accept modern apostles and prophets. If this is not the case, could you explain why?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 12:43:10 AM
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awaken
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I have been studing scriptures concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit......I have not studied out the apostles and prophets. From what I have read and understood...He placed them in the church. I have not read where they were done away with.
If I recall correctly there will be prophets during the tribulation.
I do not uderstand your question on the tabernacles being exactly alike...but I do know that scripture say that he will manifest himself different in different ways...word of knowledge, word of wisdom, faith.....tongues.
He is like the wind we can not see the wind but we can see what the wind does(manifest). The trees blowing, the wind on our face. Same wind....different manifestations.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 1:04:03 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I do not uderstand your question on the tabernacles being exactly alike
My basic point is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be suggesting that the Holy Spirit is working today, 2008 AD, the same as He always has, including back in Old Testament times. If that is the case, there are a few things that must be true. 1, there should be Christians around today that are divinely empowered to craft literal, physical aspects of the Tabernacle, since that was a distinct manifestation of the Holy Spirit back in the time of Moses. 2, I have to wonder, where were tongues in the Old Testament?
quote:
If I recall correctly there will be prophets during the tribulation.
Perhaps, I'm not sure. That would be something worth looking into. : )
However, the tribulation, 2nd coming, etc., are all a distinct period of God' plan, different from the early Church and, in my opinion, the rest of the Church age, which began at the close of the biblical canon (or perhaps the death of the Apostle John... I'm not entirely sure about exactly when it began).
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 9:29:17 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I have to wonder, where were tongues in the Old Testament?
Why would there be tongues in the Old Testament.
The Holy Spirit came to dwell in Christian Believers and that started very plainly in Acts 2.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 10:13:35 AM
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awaken
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I was questioned on another forum and I think here too.....Did Jesus speak in tongues?
Unless.....as rcjames said, before Pentecost the Holy Spirit did not manifest himself in this way. So could this be a sign of the indwelling Holy Spirit. If so....this manifestation should still exist, because people are still being indwelt.
Wasn't Jesus indwelt with the Holy Spirit?
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:14:10 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Why would there be tongues in the Old Testament.
If the manifestations of the Holy Spirit do not change, and I still haven't heard for sure from those who advocate modern tongues if this is held to be true, so a clarification there would be helpful; if they do not change, then tongues should be present throughout Scripture.
I'm getting this from awaken's statement at the top of this page:
quote:
The Holy Spirit came upon people in the Old Testament and it was manifested through the miracles/power.
and
quote:
So the purpose of the Holy Spirit is the same.......the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is the same...
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:56:31 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1719
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What is this Jesus speaking in tongues stuff? My Bible - and I have several translations and some well used commentaries, does not say He did. After He was baptized by his cousin, God said, apparently in an audible voice - at least to those with ears to hear - "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." And, the Holy Spirit alighted upon Jesus in the form of a dove. After that, Jesus went into the desert.
The Holy Spirit is described as coming upon people in the OT - also giving rise to the conclusion that he left, too. In the NT, however, He is indwelling. Actually, the Holy Spirit alighting UPON Jesus in the NT after His Baptism, is inline with OT scripture. It is not until Jesus has ascended, that we read of the Holy Spirit indwelling or filling, believers.
Jesus told His disciples that He had to return to His Father in order to send the Holy Spirit. NT - OT, another story.
If Jesus had to go back up into heaven to send the Holy Soirit, why are people asking if Jesus spoke in tongues? 
The word dispensation mean anything?
Mr. Fribbles, pls do not exhaust me with your endless questions - I have a high regard for how polite you are (sorry u did not like my poem - it was meant to be funny) I would have removed it had you asked. Just my tongue in cheek humour...... 
It would be interesting if you post what you do believe, concerning this thread, as I really don't have the time to do an exegesis on your posts.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 12:19:31 PM
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wacotton
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Once again here is a link to an article entitled
"Speaking in Tongues Throughout History"
http://www.geocities.com/robert_upci/speaking_in_tongues_throughout_h.htm
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 12:21:30 PM
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awaken
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I brought up the Jesus and tongue issue because I have been confronted with it by people that do not believe in tongues(which I do believe).
They say that if tongues was a manifestation on the Holy Spirit then Jesus should have spoken in tongues. I can not come up with a good answer to that....I was just hoping someone could help.
Mr. Fribbles.............Maybe I worded my statement wrong about the Holy Spirit not changing....I believe the same Holy Spirit is from Genesis to Revelation and beyond. How he manifest himself is different as I stated in another post.....word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues etc......He is still manifesting Him self to the church(believers) in these ways. I believe the purpose of the Holy Spirit manifestation-. The purpose of the gifts are for , the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. Why would anyone believe they are not for today? We still need them for this purpose!!
I just had a thought....the disciple did not speak in tongues until the day of Pentecost either, so why would Jesus?
< Message edited by awaken -- 6/25/2008 12:29:51 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 12:48:04 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1719
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
I brought up the Jesus and tongue issue because I have been confronted with it by people that do not believe in tongues(which I do believe).
They say that if tongues was a manifestation on the Holy Spirit then Jesus should have spoken in tongues. I can not come up with a good answer to that....I was just hoping someone could help.
Actually, you didn't. Someone else on this thread did before you began posting.
If you read my post, I addressed Jesus speaking in tongues.
DISPENSATION
Sometimes people cannot think of anything true to address their rhetoric, so they think up what they perceive as a clever argument ( and I don't mean you or Mr. F) to put a stick in the spokes - ie. why didn't Jesus speak in tongues. They need to read their Bibles and do a little homework or they would not even ask such a question! Seriously
< Message edited by solarflare -- 6/25/2008 1:00:24 PM >
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 12:54:44 PM
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solarflare
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I do not have a problem with speaking in tongues. I have a problem with the wrong use of same and the confusion which exists because of people not studying Scripture for the proper applications. I also have a problem with people coining phrases to describe what they do as spiritual when there is no Biblical basis for what they do.
The Bible is our guide and final authority - and there is enough in there to keep us all busy for a very long time. Way too many Christians look for verses to support what they believe, rather than address there beliefs with what the Bible actually says.
Pls, no one be offended - this is a general statement and not intended to
address any individual - other than those that participate in the above observed behavior(s).
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 1:35:47 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 654
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
I brought up the Jesus and tongue issue because I have been confronted with it by people that do not believe in tongues(which I do believe).
They say that if tongues was a manifestation on the Holy Spirit then Jesus should have spoken in tongues. I can not come up with a good answer to that....I was just hoping someone could help.
There is also no scripture that states that He did not speak in unknown tongues.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 4:06:16 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2655
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quote:
It would be interesting if you post what you do believe, concerning this thread, as I really don't have the time to do an exegesis on your posts.
It would be my pleasure.
I believe that anyone who teaches tongues are required for salvation is teaching a heretical false doctrine by adding to the work of Christ (thankfully, I haven't met anyone on here who believes that. ...At least, not that I'm aware of).
I believe that modern tongues, as I have seen them practiced (only twice in person, the rest of the time has been on videos or in documentaries such as Jesus Camp), are not being practiced in a biblical manner. I see tongues being spoken by many members of a congregation, all at once, and none of them are being translated - all of which are against Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14.
I believe that there is no biblical evidence for praying in an unknowable "prayer language" or "angelic language." Spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the Body of Christ, not the edification of the believer. However, I certainly will not break fellowship with anyone who claims to do this, as it ultimately is not a big deal in my mind.
And finally, I believe that if I witnessed tongues being practiced in a biblical fashion as described in 1 Corinthians 14 (which is to say, two or three people speaking in tongues, and each one being translated/interpreted), I would be much more inclined to believe in them. But as that has not yet happened, I believe that the gift of tongues, much like the gift of apostleship, has ceased to have a beneficial function in the Church today.
quote:
I believe the same Holy Spirit is from Genesis to Revelation and beyond.
I absolutely agree. : )
I also agree, as you do, that how He works is different in different people. However, I believe that with the completion of the canon/the end of the apostolic era, the use of some Spiritual gifts were no longer needed, just as He does not empower modern believers to craft Tabernacle parts.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 4:23:09 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6542
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I believe that there is no biblical evidence for praying in an unknowable "prayer language" or "angelic language."
Well shucks how about these two verses;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
This is certainly not a prophecy in tonguse as it is man speaking to God (prayer) and not God speaking ot man.
(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Paul says that he will pray and sing in tongues and pray and sing with the understanding depending on the circumstance. He gises this example in the next verse;
(1Co 14:16) Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
If one is praying over fook or other corporate prayer that seeks for others to agree then you should pray in a language they understand. Well duh.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 5:16:07 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1719
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quote:
It would be my pleasure.
Oh Mr. F. thank you. Sincerely.
I would like to discuss further with you - I agree on much of what you have posted.
It will have to be later tho. - but again, I do thank you.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 5:25:24 PM
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schupfNoodle
Posts: 99
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the Body of Christ, not the edification of the believer.
I Cor 14
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
As I have posted here, I had a churchmate that interprets tongues. She hears the tongues in English. I was with a small group and we were all praying in tongues at the same time. My churchmate interepreted mine but it didn't edify the group at all since my tongue was my personal prayer.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 10:15:36 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1719
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
It would be interesting if you post what you do believe, concerning this thread, as I really don't have the time to do an exegesis on your posts.
It would be my pleasure.
I believe that anyone who teaches tongues are required for salvation is teaching a heretical false doctrine by adding to the work of Christ (thankfully, I haven't met anyone on here who believes that. ...At least, not that I'm aware of). I agree.I believe that modern tongues, as I have seen them practiced (only twice in person, the rest of the time has been on videos or in documentaries such as Jesus Camp), are not being practiced in a biblical manner. I see tongues being spoken by many members of a congregation, all at once, and none of them are being translated - all of which are against Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14. Pretty much.I believe that there is no biblical evidence for praying in an unknowable "prayer language" or "angelic language." Spiritual gifts are given for the edification of the Body of Christ, not the edification of the believer. I agree that the gifts are given for the edification of the Body and not just the believer. However, I do not see where we are told that there would never be a gift practiced for the good of one individual or for the edification of same. For example, Acts 21: 10-11 The prophet Agabus delivers a personal message to Paul - telling him THE HOLY SPIRIT SAYS and then proceeds to advise Paul he will be put in prison - this prophet even went so far as to take Paul's belt and tie his own hands and feet - a physical illustration of the fate that awaited Paul. Once could say, perhaps, that many people were involved because of who Paul was - but, the truth is, Paul was addressed as an individual - this was not group edification - although it did effect - and actually still effects - us all. However, I certainly will not break fellowship with anyone who claims to do this, as it ultimately is not a big deal in my mind.
And finally, I believe that if I witnessed tongues being practiced in a biblical fashion as described in 1 Corinthians 14 (which is to say, two or three people speaking in tongues, and each one being translated/interpreted), I would be much more inclined to believe in them. Well, I know what you are saying. However, if I were to believe in Christianity using the same criteria, I am afraid I would not believe in Christ as so many of His followers do not exhibit the love He said would make them known as His own. But as that has not yet happened, I believe that the gift of tongues, much like the gift of apostleship, has ceased to have a beneficial function in the Church today. This last sentence seems to indicate that rather than believing that these two are no longer present, you believe they are no longer functional as they were meant to be. Is this so?
Well, that's a few comments re your answer to me. Happy to discuss further. It's better than being yelled at (in writing) and sarcastically dismissed as has happened on one other post in particular .  quote:
I believe the same Holy Spirit is from Genesis to Revelation and beyond.
The above is not my post.I absolutely agree. : )
I also agree, as you do, that how He works is different in different people. However, I believe that with the completion of the canon/the end of the apostolic era, the use of some Spiritual gifts were no longer needed, just as He does not empower modern believers to craft Tabernacle parts.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 10:20:09 AM
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awaken
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I know this has been discussed and I have read the post concerning the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit-He was born without sin, RIGHT?
When the Holy Spirit came upon him at baptism, wasn't this for power?...because he did not start his ministry until after this. If I recall he did not do any miracles etc. until after the Holy Spirit came upon Him. So Jesus was filled.. indwelt..upon...He had the Spirit without measure. But The church was not indwelt until the day of Pentecost...the tongues is for the purpose of edifying of the Body of Christ. So how can the body be edified before it's birth the day of Pentecost?
If we keep the purpose of tongues in view of all of this it makes more sense to me.
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