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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:56:20 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
You do when you state that gifts are only for the edification of the body
I'm confused. How does something being a sign negate something edifying the Body?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 12:15:44 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I'm confused. How does something being a sign negate something edifying the Body?
Correct me if I am wrong, but have you not implied that you do not think praying in tongues - praying being the definitive no no - is scriptural as the individual is being selfish and using a gift to edify themself rather than the body? If tongues is also a sign, then it is not just a gift - the NT explicitly employs the use of tongues in prayer as well.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 12:30:10 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Keep the personal squabbling off the thread, please.
If you have a problem with another poster and feel you must discuss it, take it to pms. Bear in mind that the Terms of Service apply to pms, also.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:37:23 PM
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rcjames
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Is praying in tongues Scriptural?
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
This is specific man speaking to God (prayer) in this verse it does not refer to prophetic tongues (God speaking to man). Prophetic tongues must be interpreted.
(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Paul says he prayed in tongues and prayed in his native language, says he sang in tongues also.
(Jud 1:20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude speaks to edifying ones self by praying in tongues.
And there are others, but yes praying in tongues in definatley Scriptural.
Now not everyone prays in tongues as Paul speaks to that also;
(1Co 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Paul wishes everyone spoke/prayed/sang in tongues, but they don't. Now concerning about prophesying in tongues being greater; I don't think that on the balance being great should be our goal; only being obedient.
The one passa that we all should pay attention to and be obedient to is;
(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:40) Let all things be done decently and in order.
Forbid not the speaking/praying/singing in tongues, but be sure to do keep things decent and in order.
Thanks
RC
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 3:05:05 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Actually, this is straight from the Bible and I absolutely agree and completely fail to see what other interpretation could be had. There is only one thing that can explain variations on the scripture you quoted.
The only thing that would keep an individual from understanding the above, is trying to understand it with their own intellect. Scripture is very concise in telling us that we cannot understand the Word of God with our own understanding. ONLY the Holy Spirit can give understanding to the things of God. Of course, we can always ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit so that we can understand and practice what Paul is talking about.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 4:28:55 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but have you not implied that you do not think praying in tongues - praying being the definitive no no - is scriptural as the individual is being selfish and using a gift to edify themself rather than the body?
That depends on what you mean by "praying in tongues." While I personally don't believe that personal tongues-prayer is taught in Scripture, I also don't think it's especially harmful - it's not a big deal to me.
But if by "praying in tongues," you mean praying publicly, in a disruptive manner, in a tongue that goes untranslated, then yes, I think that is selfish and explicitly unbiblical.
quote:
If tongues is also a sign, then it is not just a gift - the NT explicitly employs the use of tongues in prayer as well.
I never said a gift couldn't also be a sign simultaneously, unless I'm forgetting something. If I said that, I would appreciate knowing which post it was, so I can try and figure out what I was trying to say!
---------
RC, I feel I've addressed those verses multiple times already in this thread, so I will refrain from commenting on them once again. Though I would like to point out that nothing in Scripture says that "praying in the Holy Spirit," as Jude 20 says, is automatically tongues.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 5:00:19 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
But if by "praying in tongues," you mean praying publicly, in a disruptive manner, in a tongue that goes untranslated, then yes, I think that is selfish and explicitly unbiblical.
Yes, that would be wrong to do. Obviosly I would agree because Scripture teaches against that.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 5:11:21 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I never said a gift couldn't also be a sign simultaneously, unless I'm forgetting something. If I said that, I would appreciate knowing which post it was, so I can try and figure out what I was trying to say!
With regards to tongues, both applications do apply according to Scripture so apparently we agree as far as tongues go and that is the discussion for this thread - not any other gifts or signs.
With regards to praying in the understanding and in the spirit - I do not know why Paul would mention both unless they were different - I believe that the meaning is that we are to pray both ways - Paul says "I will" - meaning he will do both.
Anyway, I really do not see what else there is to discuss here - I am not trying to persuade anyone - it is hard enough on these boards just to get someone to understand what you believe or think yourself, never mind get them to believe what you, yourself believe. I think that the scriptures quoted by RC say what I would have had to say - they are quite easy to understand - and straight from the Bible.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 5:29:35 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
MrFribbles,
The Apostles and those gathered in the upper room on Pentecost seemed to receive something that they didn't believe in - since they hadn't yet received the Holy Spirit, it seems unlikely that they could have believed in tongues, as they had never seen or experienced it before.
I'm pretty sure that the Apostles believed in the Holy Spirit when they received Him on Pentecost- they weren't waiting to receive tongues in particular,tongues was merely the signification that the Holy Spirit had come to them.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 5:51:06 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I'm pretty sure that the Apostles believed in the Holy Spirit when they received Him on Pentecost- they weren't waiting to receive tongues in particular,tongues was merely the signification that the Holy Spirit had come to them.
I agree with that. I was responding to a poster who appeared to be claiming that you couldn't receive something from God unless you believed in it, which would make the Apostles receiving tongues impossible at Pentecost.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 6:55:38 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
That depends on what you mean by "praying in tongues." While I personally don't believe that personal tongues-prayer is taught in Scripture, I also don't think it's especially harmful - it's not a big deal to me.
But if by "praying in tongues," you mean praying publicly, in a disruptive manner, in a tongue that goes untranslated, then yes, I think that is selfish and explicitly unbiblical.
So now you are claiming that puplic prayer in tongues is inherently disruptive, or just what are trying to say.
Scripture says that man speaking to God (prayer) is not understood by any man, and I guess I will stand by that.
During prayer time yesterday at Church (we usually have around an hour of prayer time on Sunday monings) there were some praying in english, some in spanish, some in Choctaw, and many praying in tongues. There was nothing disruptive about it. Just a room full of people joining in prayer to their God as the Scripture instructs.
During the praise service there was one prophetic utterance in tongues and it was interpreted.
Also during the praise and worship time there was a time when most joined in praising God by singing in tongues, nothing orchastrated just happend; no disruption and it was a blessing to all who were there, including those who do not prophesy, pray, or speak in tongues.
All was done decently and in order.
Thsnks
RC
edited for spellling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/30/2008 7:03:04 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 7:35:52 PM
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MrFribbles
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RC, how does such a service fit, in light of 1 Corinthians 14? Paul seems to clearly say that only 2 or 3 should speak in a tongue in any given service.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 8:47:25 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
MrFribbles
I agree with that. I was responding to a poster who appeared to be claiming that you couldn't receive something from God unless you believed in it, which would make the Apostles receiving tongues impossible at Pentecost.
I was aware of your reason for posting what you did.
I thought your response was a weak diversion ( actually a fallacious argument which uses an extreme understanding of your opponents point to make it appear ridiculous) from what the scripture in Mark says ,since a knowledge of tongues indicates that the book of Mark was written after the Pentecost of Acts 2.
Your attempt then to invalidate the necessity for a person to have faith in the operation of tongues falls short, since scripture which takes into account a knowledge of tongues clearly states that belief is necessary.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 9:27:38 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
scripture which takes into account a knowledge of tongues clearly states that belief is necessary.
I'd be interested if you could share a reference for that Scripture(s). : )
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 12:51:23 AM
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TJO5
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quote:
MrFribbles
I'd be interested if you could share a reference for that Scripture(s). : )
It is the same scripture already under discussion- Mark 16:17
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
toiV <3588> {T-DPM} pisteusasin <4100> (5660) {V-AAP-DPM} tauta <5023>
As you may notice from the Dative form pisteusasin followed by the determiner tauta this passage refers to -the ones believing in them (the signs).
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 1:08:35 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
As you may notice from the Dative form pisteusasin followed by the determiner tauta this passage refers to -the ones believing in them (the signs).
That is one possibility. However, "believe" appears in verse 16 as well. I tend to assume that when the same word appears so close to each other, they refer to the same thing. In my view, this verse is not teaching that belief in the signs is required, but rather a saving faith is required before God can do the signs through someone.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 9:59:50 AM
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Dougeb
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but accordig to mark 16: they did believe in it . you are assuming they did not belive in it before that day. for the day of petnicost on that day every one was filled in that upper room . that is why he quoted from the book of JOEL. Mark clearly states about tounges and that was before penticost. for that is what they where all excited about every one got filled.on that day. JOEL 2 verse 28 and it shall come to pass afterwards that i will p[our my Spirit out on all flesh. acts 2 peter knew what was happening. he explained it. for the crowd to understand he quoted joel. the word tounges is not even mentioned. in JOEL and i certanly dont think just those in the upper room were all flesh. so according to Mark they were already speaking in toungs before that day. and Paul clearly states as a prayer lanuage also. aS YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN SO MANY TIMES sorry for the caps. Paul clearly talks of praying in the spirit and in the understanding and even singing in the spirit.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 10:24:22 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
RC, how does such a service fit, in light of 1 Corinthians 14? Paul seems to clearly say that only 2 or 3 should speak in a tongue in any given service.
It lines up perfectly for only one spoke to the congregation (prophetically in tongues), the rest was praying and singing (speaking to God). And all was done in decency and in order.
Question;
If tongues are not permitted in a Church; is the Church not in line with Scripture.;
(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(1Co 14:40) Let all things be done decently and in orde.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 10:24:25 AM
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Dougeb
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clearly in reading from verse 16 and he is talking believing to be saved and and yes they will follow those who believe they still have to believe to receive. for if you dont believe in somthing how will you recieve it .as with salvation we must first believe. even a word you must belive it to recieve it. that is why the religious of jesus's time could not recieve. so it is true in verse 17 u must believe in it for if you dont belive in salvation cant recieve that eitiher. so i say it is a for sure they believed in tounges for Jesus told them about both ,so the had to belive in both salvation and tounges why would we speculate he was only talkingabout one thing when they had to believe in all the subject matters.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 10:33:22 AM
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Dougeb
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your right it does fit and it was in order for they were praying and singing in the spirit which would be order. for it was not an out of order prophtic tounge so clearly there is a dif.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 11:17:59 AM
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Dougeb
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truthfully wether they spoke in toungs before peticost or not is not the subject for it could just be in ref. to acts .but clearly JESUS told them about salvation and tounges before the day of penticost. so they knew about both. in order to recieve both.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 11:30:29 AM
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solarflare
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We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. none of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. but, God has revealed it to us by His Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man' s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak. not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: For who has known the mind of the Lord that he many instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
I Cor.2: 6-16 Word of God - spiritually understood - not intellect
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 12:01:09 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
MrFribbles
That is one possibility. However, "believe" appears in verse 16 as well. I tend to assume that when the same word appears so close to each other, they refer to the same thing. In my view, this verse is not teaching that belief in the signs is required, but rather a saving faith is required before God can do the signs through someone.
An interesting theory,I only have a couple of issues with it.
I do not like it because of the way some denominations twist it from there to show that-unless a person speaks in tongues (which is the most evident sign to them,when combined with scriptures that show those newly filled with the Holy Spirit doing so {Acts 2,Acts 10}) then they are not really saved,nor have they received the Holy Spirit- which things I don't believe.
Secondly-the fact that the adjective tauta is placed after the verb rather than in proximity to the term "signs",while still modifying that term,seems to emphasize the relationship between the signs and the need for belief.
It may be however that the verse supports both understandings,for certainly one must have the initial belief before moving on to the necessity to believe for other things.
A sad but true fact of christianity is that many churches are so focused on the need to get people saved that they don't consider the fact that we are sent to make disciples of all men. Many christians never get past their initial salvation to receive any of the other things that the bible tells us should be theirs.
All of these things are received by first hearing and then applying faith to them.
The doctrine of perfection (maturity) requires that we continuously advance along a path of learning and applied faith.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 1:10:33 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
If tongues are not permitted in a Church; is the Church not in line with Scripture.
It depends on what kind of tongues are being forbid. If the tongues are being done properly, in an orderly way that edifies the church, then no, it is not. If, however, they are lovingly trying to calm people whose tongues are uncontrolled and disruptive, then I would say that they are commanded to lovingly correct the individual(s) doing this.
quote:
It lines up perfectly for only one spoke to the congregation (prophetically in tongues), the rest was praying and singing (speaking to God). And all was done in decency and in order.
I would be very interested in attending a service at your church. : ) I've never seen something you've described done in an orderly way.
-------
quote:
I do not like it because of the way some denominations twist it from there to show that-unless a person speaks in tongues (which is the most evident sign to them,when combined with scriptures that show those newly filled with the Holy Spirit doing so {Acts 2,Acts 10}) then they are not really saved,nor have they received the Holy Spirit- which things I don't believe.
If that's the conclusion someone reaches, then they are reading more into Scripture than Scripture allows.
quote:
A sad but true fact of christianity is that many churches are so focused on the need to get people saved that they don't consider the fact that we are sent to make disciples of all men.
I quite agree. They take the "go into the world," but forget the "and make disciples" part!
quote:
All of these things are received by first hearing and then applying faith to them.
How would you explain the times in Scripture when someone receives salvation, and then immediately speaks in tongues? I'm guessing that an explanation of the gift of tongues was not part of the Gospel presentation every time.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 3:41:39 PM
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TJO5
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[quote]quote:
I do not like it because of the way some denominations twist it from there to show that-unless a person speaks in tongues (which is the most evident sign to them,when combined with scriptures that show those newly filled with the Holy Spirit doing so {Acts 2,Acts 10}) then they are not really saved,nor have they received the Holy Spirit- which things I don't believe.
quote:
MrFribbles
If that's the conclusion someone reaches, then they are reading more into Scripture than Scripture allows.
Sadly I have discussed this on different message boards with others before.
Just as bad is the elitist mentality of those who believe that the operation of tongues and other spiritual gifts makes them superior in some way to other christians; or that such operations confirm them and whatever message they have.
quote:
MrFribbles
How would you explain the times in Scripture when someone receives salvation, and then immediately speaks in tongues? I'm guessing that an explanation of the gift of tongues was not part of the Gospel presentation every time.
I would need to address specific examples,but for the most part the events in the book of Acts were details of the beginning of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the church.
In some cases ,such as Acts 10,the Holy Spirit fell and it was recognized by the manifestation of tongues. But then there is the case of the disciples Paul met(Acts 19) who believed,but had no knowledge of the Holy Spirit;however when Paul laid hands on them,after explaining more perfectly,they received the Holy Spirit,spoke in tongues,and prophesied.
Others had different experiences.
It seems to me that ,because many churches only preach a message of salvation ,it has caused other churches to preach some kind of secondary experience (baptism of the Holy Spirit) which is not really another experience but the continuation of what was already begun.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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