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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 1:40:38 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1986
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quote:
ORIGINAL: smootches2uall
We never use our hand - a hand is for loving.
You know, I heard this and heard this, especially when the materials from "he who must not be named" hit our church big time.
And I've decided...this phrase is really more for the parents' benefit then the child's. It allows the PARENTS to separate themselves from the spanking. The child knows who is giving the spanking in either situation. The child doesn't make the separation that this phrase suggests.
You don't think a child has figured out that the "loving" hand is what is holding and controlling the object?
My parents did both (bare handed and an object)...ironically they started using a paddle when my mom came under the influence of some ultra-fundamentalists (like later with my husband and I, the search that led to a legalistic parenting system was triggered by dealing with a child who had a mental health issue that symptomatically included some behavioral challenges, so at that time they were looking at controlling/changing the behavior, not the reason behind the behavior). My mom wrote on the paddle, "Because I love you so much." That was the subject of much humor (and mock retching noises) among my siblings and I when mom and dad weren't present.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 1:49:12 PM
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smootches2uall
Posts: 209
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state - I am not 'under the influence'.. we use the spoon as, when they see the spoon, they know a spanking is coming. When they see mom or dad, they know mom or dad is just that... mom or dad. My 5 year old said she did not like spankings. I told her it was not her choice to get a spanking or not after she disobeyed... and the only way for her to choose whether she gets a spanking or not is BEFORE she chooses to disobey. I then asked her if she would rather me spank with my hand or the spoon. She replied the spoon. Why? 'Because when the spoon goes away, the spanking is done, then we talk'. That was enough for me.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 1:57:09 PM
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smootches2uall
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Proverbs31 - that makes a lot of sense. I will have to talk to my dh about that. Things that make you go 'hmmmm'....
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 1:58:10 PM
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Proverbs31Woman
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That was the problem for DH. When he saw mom and dad he saw just mom and dad.
When he saw mom and dad with the bathroom brush he saw authority.
We didn't want our kids placing authority on the object. We want them to know that we are their authority and that God is their authority.
When our kids see use coming they know that mom and dad are coming to save them from rebellion. Rebellion can destroy a soul. We we come to spank our children or discipline in any form, we are on a rescue mission. I'd rather rescue someone with my own hand than with some object.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 1:58:13 PM
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smootches2uall
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lol, state. I keep thinking that you are talking about Voldemort when you say that.
That is the first thing that comes to mind... lol!
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 2:00:32 PM
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Proverbs31Woman
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Hi smootches. You should get the book I recommended and see what you think. 
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 2:00:48 PM
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stateofgrace
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Shhhh....smootches...good Christians aren't supposed to know about Lord Whats-His-Name. People might think you were reading...well, you know...
LOL, it was just a funny that crept into my mind...when that particular "he who must not be named" was declared off-topic in a Parenting thread, I thought it was rather appropriate. Long-timers know the in-joke. Those who don't can read my blog and figure out who I am referring to.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 2:04:09 PM
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smootches2uall
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lol... *ahem* sorry, back on topic.........
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:20:00 PM
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Earl_Lee
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I apologize in advance for the length. If I truly loved my neighbor as myself I would somehow be able to shorten this. I understand if your eyes glaze over and you need to skip it.
I firmly believe that children obey your parents and honor your father and mother is the right thing. Discipline cannot be withheld.
When I read about your household rules for discipline I see that many of you are not interpreting Proverbs literally. Why do you make rules for yourself? Why do you not use a rod and strike your child?
You make rules for yourself, you do not use a rod, you work from love and not anger because you instinctively know of the danger of abuse. You know that without care punishment will border on it.
The rod in the Old Testament was basically a wooden walking stick, a stout club, a staff. A rod is a rod. The Bible is unerring in this description.
Is Proverbs wrong? Did Solomon mean to put the words wooden spoon where he wrote rod? Does Psalm 23:4 say, thy wooden spoon and hair brush, they comfort me?
If it is taken literally, the Old Testament is a hard document to live with. It condones having slaves and stoning women who have sex outside of marriage. For a long time the Bible was used to justify slavery. At first it was only a few, bleeding heart liberals who saw that slavery was incompatible with the teachings of Jesus. They were soundly denounced for perverting the meaning of God’s word.
For example, let’s take the Old Testament at its exact and literal word about raising children for a moment.
Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you.
Let’s go straight to the author of Proverbs. What does he say about the result of all of his wisdom and a lifetime of leading the life of the wise?
Ecclesiasties 1:2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.
I think that might mean that everything is meaningless without the love of Christ.
I learned that a major difference between Christianity and Judiasm is the importance Jesus gave to the spirit of the law rather than rules and regulations. Jesus pressed the Ctrl-Alt-Del buttons on our relationship with the law. He rebooted the relationship with children. After Jesus, children are no longer merely property; they are treated as people and respected. All of the commandments about love now and certainly apply to children.
What would I have you learn from this exercise? I would have you understand the difference between loving correction and “Wal*Mart justice”. I would hope that you would speak out against the over-use and acceptance of physical punishment. I would hope that you would strive to help everyone correct their child as lovingly as you correct yours. I would hope that you would absolutely demand that no one use the Bible to justify that which goes beyond loving correction.
Are you unfamiliar with the term “Wal*Mart justice?” Have you never been to a Super Wal*Mart and seen what goes on in the isles? I don’t know everything but here are some of the things:
Don’t hit. Spank Spank
If you think this is bad, just wait until you get home to your father. Spank Spank
I’ll give you something to smile about. Spank Spank
I’ll teach you to pick on someone your own size. Spank Spank
I'm doing this because I love you! Spank Spank
This hurts me more than it does you. Spank Spank
It’s for your own good. Spank Spank
Put that down and don’t touch anything. Spank Spank
In my opinion, physical punishment teaches children that although the race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, the bigger person has the power to get his way.
Finally, to close this thing, let’s assume that spanking is a form of love. Let’s juxtapose the words spanking and love. I will let the words finish the thought for me.
Spanking is patient, spanking is kind. Spanking does not envy, spanking does not boast, spanking is not proud. Spanking is not rude, Spanking is not self-seeking, Spanking is not easily angered, Spanking keeps no record of wrongs. Spanking does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. Spanking always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Spanking never fails… And now these three remain: faith, hope and spanking. But the greatest of these is spanking.
Congratulations to those who made it to the end. This was therapeutic for me.
Earl
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:27:02 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5256
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Dear Earl,
Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If it is not done in love, though, it is sinful. I know you have had bad personal experiences, but I think that the solution is not to deny the teachings of Scripture, but rather to emphasize the underemphasized
If you believe that your experience was a parent, out of love, chastening a son, and bad things happening from that ... then your experience disagrees with what I'm saying. If you are saying that your experience is that even moderate punishment can be unloving ... then I agree with you completely.
-Turretinfan
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:35:01 PM
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Earl_Lee
Posts: 41
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Proverbs31Woman
Earl Lee,
I understand that you might still be angry about what happened to you but it was not discipline. It was abuse, it was wrong.
Biblical Discipline is a lot different than what you and I received and I pray that God will heal you of your hurt.
He has healed me.
Blessings.
Dear Proverbs31 Woman,
Thank you for that thought. I was hurt for 40 years. I wandered in the desert. Fortunately, nothing lasts forever. I got better in year 41. That was the year when I realized I could honor my parents by praying for them.
Earl
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 8:35:23 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1499
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
They must have been very well behaved sheep....I have seen well trained championship dogs "snap' at sheep heels and draw a little blood. nothing serious...but a well placed snap or nip.
Sheepdogs must be trained differently in the USA.
these were imported dogs from.......Scotland and Italy. hand raised and winning championships in both Europe and US.
quote:
I have a cousin who raises sheep...and he laughs when peope say "we only nudge them". The only time you can get a sheep to move with only a nudge is right after they have been shorn...the literally cannot feel nudges through 4 inches of wool. You don't beat them...but you do have to give them a whack!
quote:
I lived in the countrside of the Isle of Wight, off the south coast of the UK, for 12 years.
Sheep don't have to be hurt to be moved.
Through 4 to 6 inches of wool...it doesn't hurt them...but it does make impact. There is a difference between shock and HARM.
I have also had the privilege of knowing people who were shepherd in the Middle East (Israel to be exact)....some of their practices are thousands of years old....and most Western shepherds would get fired for using them. talk about brutal!
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:39:34 PM
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Sunnymom
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All this info about raising sheep is riveting, but my while my children are cute, they are most definitely not furry little animals grazing in my backyard.
A rod is a rod, and the comfort is not in the pain one feels in the behind, but in the enforcement of boundaries. Children who have clearly illustrated boundaries, as well as clearly stated consequences for crossing those boundaries, are very secure and happy children. And for the purposes of this discussion, that statement assumes that a parents' boundaries and consequences are reasonable.
I had a very secure childhood, and sometimes a very sore behind. I knew the rules, and when I crossed the line, I knew what would happen. My parents proved their love and consistency to me by always being fair, and always carrying out the consequences. As I got older, I could see that spanking me was hard for them, but they did it anyway. Sometimes it is easier to give a kid a lecture, or a time out, or a grounding- when what they need is swift and sure justice. I am very happy that my parents spanked me. My dh was never spanked, and he is still a spoiled brat with self control struggles to this day.
If one really does not believe that God used physical pain to teach as well as punish, then what exactly was all that earth opening up and swallowing people, folks getting leprosy, being bitten by snakes, eaten by lions, and falling down dead about?
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:45:00 PM
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smootches2uall
Posts: 209
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quote:
All this info about raising sheep is riveting, but my while my children are cute, they are most definitely not furry little animals grazing in my backyard. sunny you make me chuckle (picturing sunny's fluffy children hopping short fences)
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 9:47:02 PM
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W.O.F.
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lol....my children are more like sheep...wild, wooly and determined to challange all the boundaries.
Sheep are NOT cute or well behaved. lambs are...but I suppose that is why the Bible says "All we LIKE SHEEP have gone astray...every one unto his own way...."
but really...I think raising children is more like training dogs, and less like raising sheep.
Sheep are witless and will desert their own lambs..but except for vaccines and keeping an eye on them, they can be left to graze and grow on their own. Dogs are intelligent, can out think you, think they can get by you (get up on the sofa when you aren't there and not have you notice the sofa is warm with you get back and they are laying so well on the rug)....but have to be trained or they become vicious, or at least big slobbering annoying ninnies....
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 10:03:48 PM
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smootches2uall
Posts: 209
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Earl, I somewhat agree with your post. First let me say that I have to agree with others that, as you have described 'spanking' thus far, it was not loving discipline, but lordship. Which is not Godly. I would never assume to lord over my children with an iron fist of 'spank spank', but I do discipline my children under certain circumstances. I am glad to hear that you have had some breakthrough and you have found a way to honor them. My dh is still working on that one with his mom/dad without giving them leniency for their crimes.
On another note: I thought your juxtapose was interesting. Interesting because, for much of it, it is accurate:
quote:
Spanking is patient, I do not use it in knee-jerk responsequote:
spanking is kind. the point of it is not to hurt, but to heal a sin-tendencyquote:
Spanking does not envy, It is a reminder to me to check that I did all I could besides spanking to teachquote:
spanking does not boast, My heart is humble and hurt when I discipline my childquote:
spanking is not proud. More of the samequote:
Spanking is not rude, It is not done in a way to belittle or condemn the childquote:
Spanking is not self-seeking, It does not make me happy to do it, and is definitely not an easy fix (any parent can tell you that)Spanking is not easily angered,quote:
See my dh's and my rule to not discipline with the rod while angry Spanking keeps no record of wrongs.quote:
We only met discipline for the current offense - not pasts Spanking does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. quote:
I solemnly rejoice that my child is being brought up... I weep that an evil brought us to this place Spanking always protects,quote:
I discipline because I love my child and want the best for them (which is a form of protecting) always trusts,quote:
I trust that I am doing right in God's eyes and that I have a right heart always hopes, quote:
I always hope that we never have to discipline for the same thing again always perseveres.quote:
It gets the point across, eh?!
The only 2 things that I could not go on with is spanking never fails - because it can when it is not done with all of the above - and the greatest of these is spanking - because DISCIPLINE in the form of spanking is only ONE of MANY forms of love.
I also had to reply to this:
quote:
Don’t hit. Spank Spank see my past post about children who are 'rodded' and those who aren't and the correlation with both to hitting.
quote:
If you think this is bad, just wait until you get home to your father. Spank Spank fear, not loving discipline
quote:
I’ll give you something to smile about. Spank Spank intimidation - not loving admonition
quote:
I’ll teach you to pick on someone your own size. Spank Spank confrontational - not resolutive
quote:
I'm doing this because I love you! Spank Spank only partially true - I am also doing this because (enter offense and explaination)
quote:
This hurts me more than it does you. Spank Spank not physically, but emotionally, a parent grieves. No parent LIKES to discipline.
quote:
It’s for your own good. Spank Spank Again - only a half-truth. WHY? WHY is it for their good?
quote:
Put that down and don’t touch anything. Spank Spank that is discipline at an undisciplined moment - which cannot then rightly be called discipline now can it?
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2005 10:05:23 PM
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elpis
Posts: 5
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My parents spanked me and I will probably spank my kids, if I have any someday. However, there did come a point for me - probably when I was about 11 - that when I was threatened with a spanking I just mentally rolled my eyes. Even though it really hurt like heck for a few minutes, it didn't really affect me the way grounding or taking away privileges did. I plan to spank until a certain point, but honestly, sometimes we kids just outgrow it and the threat of a spanking or being spanked just doesn't cut it. We need long term consquences like not being able to hang out with friends, use the computer, etc. That's what worked with me, anyway.
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 10:06:11 PM
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smootches2uall
Posts: 209
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wow, using all of those {quote} and {/quote}'s got me REALLY dizzy....
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 10:15:46 PM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1896
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
lol....my children are more like sheep...wild, wooly and determined to challange all the boundaries.
Sheep are NOT cute or well behaved. lambs are...but I suppose that is why the Bible says "All we LIKE SHEEP have gone astray...every one unto his own way...."
but really...I think raising children is more like training dogs, and less like raising sheep.
Sheep are witless and will desert their own lambs..but except for vaccines and keeping an eye on them, they can be left to graze and grow on their own. Dogs are intelligent, can out think you, think they can get by you (get up on the sofa when you aren't there and not have you notice the sofa is warm with you get back and they are laying so well on the rug)....but have to be trained or they become vicious, or at least big slobbering annoying ninnies....
I gotta agree- sheep are dumber than a box of rocks.
There is NOTHING more clever on this earth than a two year old child determined to get a cookie from the Rubbermaid container way up in a kitchen cabinet. Or a teenager who wants to push the envelope, and attempts to reason his way around his dear old mom, whom he thinks is dumber than a box of rocks, forgetting that she didn't make it to 40 solely on her good looks and sparkling personality!
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 10:19:50 PM
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Earl_Lee
Posts: 41
Joined: 9/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
Dear Earl,
Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If it is not done in love, though, it is sinful. I know you have had bad personal experiences, but I think that the solution is not to deny the teachings of Scripture, but rather to emphasize the underemphasized
If you believe that your experience was a parent, out of love, chastening a son, and bad things happening from that ... then your experience disagrees with what I'm saying. If you are saying that your experience is that even moderate punishment can be unloving ... then I agree with you completely.
-Turretinfan
I have looked for all of the exceptions. I have tried to understand when one might be waved from believing a verse. Perhaps it came from an ancient Egyptian text. Perhaps it slipped by Solomon. Perhaps it is trumped by another. Then I looked for those exceptions with the commandment to honor your parents. Surely there should be some sort of dispensation for those whose parents were beyond the pale. Instead, what I found was this. A commandment is a commandment is a commandment. If you think it is good it is a commandment. If you think it is bad it is a commandment. If you think it makes sense it is a commandment. If you think it doesn't make sense it is still a commandment. Just shut up and do it. I was shocked to find out how much help that was to me and how rapidly it turned my healing process around.
I was long because I am emotionally involved. I don't think people can be emotionally invested and be at their analytical best. I don't want to weaken any part of the Bible or anyone's faith in the Bible. Still, I feel that something has to be done. This isn't hypothetical. It is real people hurting real people. It isn't just non-believers. It is real Christians hurting their children. Not everyone by a long stretch, but still enough.
Earl
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RE: To Spank - 10/11/2005 10:51:46 PM
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smootches2uall
Posts: 209
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From: Right below the pinky joint
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quote:
forgetting that she didn't make it to 40 solely on her good looks and sparkling personality! no??? lol!
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2005 4:03:40 PM
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gr8ce2u
Posts: 1
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I believe it was Dr. Dobson who stated, if one parent was physically abused as a child, the other parent should do the spanking, if spanking is an option. I'm paraphrasing..because I can't remember the comment word for word. As a parent who spanked and was physically abused (whipped with a bull whip, etc) had I had understood the dynamics of abuse I definitely would not have spanked my children. I did loose my temper and perpetuated the abuse. My only comment would be, examine your heart before God and access the situation before any kind of corporal punishment is used.
Ephesians 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish but understand what the Lord's will is
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