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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 3:36:35 PM
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Decibel33
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Sorry if this is repeat. It's a pretty long thread, so I didn't read through the posts on all 25 pages!
I don't believe in spanking. I was spanked and it did me no good. It just made me do things more secretly...or at least try to! I don't look down on anyone who does spank, and I wouldn't want anyone looking down on me because I don't. I wonder if there's a link between people who were abused and those not wanting to spank? I was physically and sexually abused, which is why I ask.
Anyway, I'm glad to see society going to extremes to protect children. I have a three year old and I would never spank her. I have slapped her hand, and I felt bad for that! If I ever do more than that, the police can take me away, as far as I'm concerned.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 4:27:38 PM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 829
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Decibel33, the fact that my mother was physically abusive in her discpline of me definately affects my decision to not spank. The cycle of abuse, and it is a long one, will end with me. I am not saying that spanking is necessarily abusive but I will not take that chance. I am still a very firm believer in discpline but I choose other methods.
Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 4:53:12 PM
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Decibel33
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Good for you! I applaud your descision. And thanks for the input. I'm starting to think there's definitely a link between abused children becoming non-spanking parents. And I agree with you about other methods of discipline. I personally believe in time-outs for my 3 year old. As she gets older, privacy and entertainment privilages will come in to play a lot more.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 7:16:42 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1653
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Decibel33
Sorry if this is repeat. It's a pretty long thread, so I didn't read through the posts on all 25 pages!
I don't believe in spanking. I was spanked and it did me no good. It just made me do things more secretly...or at least try to! I don't look down on anyone who does spank, and I wouldn't want anyone looking down on me because I don't. I wonder if there's a link between people who were abused and those not wanting to spank? I was physically and sexually abused, which is why I ask.
Anyway, I'm glad to see society going to extremes to protect children. I have a three year old and I would never spank her. I have slapped her hand, and I felt bad for that! If I ever do more than that, the police can take me away, as far as I'm concerned.
So you are okay with the state coming and taking your child away from you if they feel you are damaging her in any way. If you make her eat something she does not like, even though it is good for her, etc?
Because that has happened.....and that is what you are agreeing to by your statement.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2009 7:18:39 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 6481
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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I'm wondering that too. I have a 1 year old, and yes, she is a baby. She is also growing and learning what we expect of her. She has been "spanked".
There is a difference between giving a Spanking (capital S) and a swat on a diapered bottom or chubby hand, for one thing. There is also a difference between spanking/swatting for normal toddler things and blatant disregard for instructions you are sure they understand.
It's much easier to train a 1 year old not to do something than it is to untrain a 3 or 4 year old from doing it.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2009 8:27:49 PM
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hillbillywoman
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This is in response to the "Spanking Causes Aggression" propaganda that is being circulated.
I will speak from personal experience. This is not regarding spanking a one year old child. I can't imagine spanking a child that young as the child would not understand the reason behind it. I will speak from the standpoint of spanking beginning at around age 2 and half to 3 years old, and then it would only be done in extreme circumstances, such as when the child willfully and purposely disobeys. The spank would be a swat or two on the behind, and the child would be told beforehand what the spanking would be for.
With that said, I will say that I spanked all three of my children on occasion, and they are all grown now. All are very loving and caring adults, who are NOT violent in any way whatsoever. They all live peacefully in their communities and have never been aggressive towards anyone.
Things were a little different for my two brothers and I growing up. Our mother was a very good mom and we loved her very much. She would use a slim switch to stripe our legs when we got rowdy. Dad did not whip us much, but when he did, it was severe, and if he used a switch, it would be thicker than the ones Mom used and would bring the blood to the top of the skin. Dad had a bad temper, and we were very afraid of him and tried to avoid him. Despite all this, my brothers and I have never been aggressive towards others. We were never bullies, and we grew up to be good, law-abiding citizens who love our families and try to do good to others. We never considered ourselves abused by our father, despite the fact that I now know he whipped us too hard. I guess we did not think of ourselves as being abused because we knew we had disobeyed and did deserve to be punished.
So, I do not think that spanking a child will, in and of itself, lead to aggression in children. I know of a set of twin boys (belonging to a friend of mine) who at age around 3 and 4 years, would persistently slap their mother if they did not get their way. (She was a very calm and quiet person and had never spanked them. As far as I know, neither had their father. As a matter of fact, the dad worked long hours and was hardly with them.) These boys were aggressive despite having never been hit or slapped by anyone. I wonder how the psychologists would explain them?
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2009 9:15:56 PM
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GeoffMo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
I do think spanking is the most effective method of discpipline SOME of the time, but not for all children. Different things work for different kids.
I think consistency and love in any type of discipiline is the key no matter which type of "punishment" is used - be it spankings, time outs, natural consequences, etc.
Excelent post, consistency and love pay off more than anything.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2009 9:34:36 AM
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hnt
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I remember my father before he died, and at the dinner table we were discussing the spank or no spank deal. Dad went overboard when we were young, and I think my brother and I were shocked when he admitted it. lol right there in the front of EVERYONE! He said he should have gone to jail - so I think he realize there is a line in the sand when it comes to spanking...and he crossed over it.
Neither my brother or I were ever aggressive towards people, got into fights, or trouble besides the normal stuff. lol like coming home late once in while. That type of thing.
I think the most aggressive I got towards others was when they were picking on my younger brother. I was a tad protective!  This boy was being downright mean to him in our front yard - folks were not home - and big sister mode just kicked in. I don't know where it came from, but I came out the front door, jumped the hedge, and got RIGHT in that kid's face! I remember telling him you touch my brother, and I will be touching you all the way down the block. SUDDENLY he claimed his mother was calling him!  When he left I turned around, and lol my brother and the younger children on the block where looking at me like, "WOW Where did that come from?" My brother told me that boy never bothered him again!
Then you had the kids in the neighborhood that got beat, and they also never had love in their homes. They were aggressive and scary.
We also had one that never got touched, but the family life was miserable! They plain were NOT nice to each other, and again I wonder if any love was present at all. Again - aggression.
I do think you can be an effective parent without whipping the tar out of kids. I have spanked my children very rarely, because I found other forms of 'kid torture' for them that were more effective. While younger? Time out was miserable for one - the only could care less. That one got chores which made them miserable. 5 minute chore didn't kill them. When they got older? Privileges removed - depending on their love at the time. Once they got old enough to understand they also knew they had to win my trust back. Depending on the crime - some took longer than others. I know that was torture for both.
I learned from watching the neighborhood when I was young to make sure that LOVE was in the home no matter WHAT happened! They had to feel loved, protected, and nurtured. I can giggle about the torture with sarcasm regarding my children, but they also know they have people in the corner at all times. They are loved and will be supported in healthy ways. They also know they will NOT be enabled in regards to ugly behavior, and will be called out. There are ways of making sure the children feel the wrath of consequences without spanking. I left spanking for the extreme over the line happenings of childhood when they clearly KNEW IT and did it anyway. I never went over the line like my father did. I remember he used to make me mad, and I would plan my revenge although I never followed thru. I never wanted my kids to feel that way towards me. I don't have to be their friend, but I do have to a MOM! The friend part? That will come after the teen years, and into the 20's after the hormone attacks are gone ...and they came up for air as an adult!
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2009 1:09:15 PM
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HEWM
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I just want to say this: I raised 4 children who are now grownups. After they were grown I received a beautiful surprise, a little bundle who has completely changed my life and my views on this subject. I spanked all four of the older children. This is truly the one thing I have regretted the most as a parent. I look at my beautiful grown successful children and know that I used fear of a spanking to promote good behavior. How backwards, how contradictory. As I waited for the last gift to arrive I spent many hours begging God to show me a better way. A few years later I'll have to say that there is a much better way. A way built on respect and love. This way takes much more time and dedication though. A way which mirrors the same relationship which I have experienced in Christ. It would be easier to spank and get the point accross quickly. But by patient diligence and sacrifice good habits and behaviors can be taught. I want my hands to express gentleness and kindness. I want to begin a relationship with my child which will be an honor to have when she is grown. I hope this is a help in this subject.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2009 3:45:03 PM
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truthrevealed
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I so agree that there are alternatives to "spanking"---things that really work but requires patience, discipline and self-control on the part of the parent---I've learned that the very looooooonnnnng and hard way, but God is faithful  That being said, I do believe in spanking. All children are different and circumstances are different, some situations "call for it" IMO! And I don't believe in that cute spank on the diaper thing. If the child is too young to be physically hit, than they shouldn't be. If they are old enough than I'm not for play hitting, pain can be a deterrent.
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I'll tell the world....where--ever I go. That I, have found, a Savior....and He's sweet I know!!!
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/18/2009 4:12:53 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3186
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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I want to be very careful what I say here, because I have been able to recently forgive for what was done to me as a child, but I could not only openly dishonor my parents but also open old wounds, destroying the work G-d has done.
I was reared in a minister's home, so the result was that I thought G-d was the same, so I hated G-d, did everything I could to make Him hate me. What happened did not make me violent toward anyone other than myself and G-d. In fact, I could not fight, because my personal strength was taken away as was my personal value. I had no concept whatsoever of personal value.
Children respond in different ways to parental aggressiveness: some with violence and some sink into consuming fear.
I was fortunate that we had children who desired to please me. I was also fortunate that before my husband died at age 29, he and I had been discussing whether or not to spank. I wanted to stop because I did not trust myself. In fact, I rarely spanked or struck my daughter, the oldest, already. She was five. I had never hit my son, age 2. When he died, I decided to go the way he was leaning: no hitting.
My children did very well, but when my daughter had her own children, she and her husband spanked, although very rarely. My son and I don't discuss it, but I have never seen him strike his children.
What happened, however, was that my first grandbear, my daughter's, was more strong-willed than any child I have ever come across, as well as violent. As his caregiver while my daughter and her husband worked, I had no clue how to handle him. Fortunately, I found a site on the computer that helped me So Much -- one like 3cappuccinosmom mentioned. They gave me so much very needed advice, and I am So Grateful to this day!! He just turned 20, so that was a while ago.
He is the only one of my grandbears that I ever spanked, and that one time just about did us in. That incident was what drove me to the computer in order to ask questions.
Of course, we never know how well we do as parents until we see the result in the children as adults. I am far more than happy with the result: I am ecstatic!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 4:44:52 AM
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agapist
Posts: 660
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Spank your secretary for typos and your boss for poor management.
I do not agree with corporeal punishment. Punishment has been found, in test after test, to be highly ineffective as a teaching tool. As many "success" stories as there are in this practice, there are twice as many storeis were the results were not good. God has his hand in all of this. If we think some worldly practice determines anything, we are practicing idolatry.
The bully and abuser do their harm because they can get away with it. Imagine your child being 6' 5" and muscular, now take the switch to em.
My daughter received one gentle swat in her entire existence, when she ran out into a busy street without thinking or looking. I immediately got down to my knees, her level, and held her, telling her I was scared by her actions because she might have been hurt. We hugged each other and cried.
The fact that my daughter graduated from Smith, has a wonderful job, is dedicated to serving others, and loves God, has nothing to do with the fact she was never spanked. To say otherwise is a boast.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 4:50:43 AM
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agapist
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The new covenant is a spiritual perspective on the previous physical emphasis of the OT. The effects of hitting someone, for whatever reason are profound. Yes, it can work in God's favor, as can a tornado.
It is wrong to hit a child period.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 7:01:25 AM
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keithyhuntington
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abuse is one thing. which is clearly wrong (drawing blood, leaving bruises, using a fist, USING A SHOE, chains, yada yada) when i say beat your kid. i just mean spank. but spank sounds effeminate. so i say beat instead.
the way i see it though, spankings have been an integral part of humanity since the beginning of time... and now teh most recent 30 yrs we have tree hugging hippies telling us we'll go to jail if we use a paddle on our kids... and you wonder why kids are so out of control now.
case in point: GO TO WALMART! go to walmart and sit in the candy aisle, or cereal aisle, or toy aisle, and wait to see how many kids in a given day are screaming, crying, cussing, hitting their parents, rolling around the floor, having an all out meltdown, "i want, i want i, want!!!" "I HATE YOU MOMMY!" and the like, just because they don't get their way...
now think of the same exact situation in the 1930... the kids would have been perfect angels... difference? i would venture to say spankings. the spanking is teh backbone of society. and once we neglect the spanking... we neglect all uniform behavior.
true, kids will be kids, but if the kid knows their only consequence is 'the naughty chair...' BIG WOOP-DE-DOO! the naughty chair. as if thats any real consequence at all. i've seen super nanny. it takes the parent like 3 hours just to get the kid to even sit for 5 min. in the naughty chair. by then you've wasted your whole night, and the results are probably just temporary at best. now if you were to pull out the paddle, read a bible verse about teh kids bad behavior, and tell them "i weep inside for what i have to do now" and dole out the punishment in a swift and firm way... we'll be getting back to the '30s. then children will be seen and not heard.
how can anyone argue with the apparant kinda oppinion like facts? talk to the elderly, folks.
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Jesus Christ please help me 'cause i'm lonely. Whats the use in living, if you can't make a good living?
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 8:11:20 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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Hmmm, I have debated on replying because you seem very set in your mind on this. You are taking a very complex process and trying to shove it into a simple and manageable box. I am going to assume you do not have children. The main reason is because I thought child rearing was rather obvious and simplistic until I had children of my own. In reality, it is messy, unpredictable, and unknowable. You find yourself in situations that you have no idea how to deal with. I am so grateful I have a relationship with Christ to guide me in this.
First, I want to dispel a prevelant myth. Children back in the good old days managed to misbehave very well. There are a couple of factors to consider. One, people often look back with a golden gaze so to speak. Everything was better back then. Each generation does this. Second, we do not have Walmart and the areas of dense population were few and far between so one did not have the opportunity to see the amount of children acting out that we do know but it still happened. Last, that is right talk your elders. Listen how some of them were getting whoopings for this that or the other thing. That is because they continued to misbehave even when parents freely spanked.
As far as "wasting" your whole evening disciplining your child. You are going to waste a whole lot of evenings teaching and guiding your child. So much in fact you need to realize it is not wasting it is parenting. Good parenting takes an extraordinary amount of time. As far the kids on Supernanny, they are on tv because they have gone so far out of control they are now a car wreck for America to watch. It doesn't have to get that far.
You are right that alot of parents don't know how to properly discipline and guide their child. Would it surprise you that many of those spank but do so in such random and unfocused manner that just like all of their discipline, it is moot? They expect to tell a toddler or small child something one time and the child always do that. It doesn't work that way. Children's brains do not work that way. Hence, there are many verses in the bible that tell us to train up our children correctly. It is a long, slow, and very, very involved process.
Each day I am coming to believe more and more that the problem with most children is not the lack of discipline but the lack of attention and parenting. I see so many people around me that are just so busy with life. They run like rats in a cage from place to place never having the time to form relationships with anyone, not even their children. Go ahead and watch them in Walmart, they are the ones that when their child talk to them they either ignore them or tell that child to Shut up. Some of these children only get their parents attention by acting out.
It is possible to raise a well disciplined child without corporeal punishment, but it is hard. It takes a great deal of time, patience, and repetition. Spanking is not the only discipline tool out there. I think you will find that people who use spanking properly use a wide variety of tools. Properly raising and loving a child is truly an exercise in dying to self.
quote:
how can anyone argue with the apparant kinda oppinion like facts?
I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
quote:
the way i see it though, spankings have been an integral part of humanity since the beginning of time... and now teh most recent 30 yrs we have tree hugging hippies telling us we'll go to jail if we use a paddle on our kids... and you wonder why kids are so out of control now.
Many of these laws were in reaction to abuse. I am not saying that spanking is abuse. However, there was a time were parents could pretty much do anything to their children. During that time, a husband could do just about anything he wanted to his wife. It was a family affair and police wouldn't interfere. Sadly, many children and wives were terrorized, battered, and killed due to such family affairs. Again, I am not saying spanking is abuse but before these laws abuse was rampant because there was no consequenses. I back this by some very unique experiences in which I was honored to hear the stories of the elderly you urge us to talk to. Many of their stories were heartbreaking and horrifying. Many of their experiences contributed to the changing social landscape that has ultimately caused the punishment norm to swing to the side of lenience.
Child rearing is a world full of joyous smiles and meltdowns. They are hard to predict and difficult to deal with at times. Most parents have had to take a teething, nap deprived baby into Walmart. It is something I avoid but sometimes it is unavoidable. When my daughter then meltdown because she can now handle the psychosis inducing situation that is Walmart, pulling her out of the cart and "beating" her (cause come on, I don't want to sound soft or effeminate) isn't going to do a bit of good and will just escalate the situation.
That is just my opinion as a parent elbow deep in child raising.
Karen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 8:40:09 AM
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bolt.
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It is possible to raise many children through very careful methods that do not involve corporal punishment. As a parent that knows those methods, it is important for me to at least try teaching methods other than physical pain as a deterrent. If a parent can't manage that, or if it is clearly not working, and if they have no one to teach them -- then yes, it is kinder to a child to spank them than to let them become increasingly undisciplined at the core.
That's what previous generations did, and rightly so, because they didn't have the understanding (or the luxury) of working with more humane (but effective) methods.
For myself, I have had a difficult road, because I believe the above, and have wanted to at least try spanking with my 4 year old, since she is well behind her age group in the skill of getting a grip on a meltdown. However, we are in application to be foster parents, and corporal punishment is not allowed towards foster children -- so I have to stick to a parenting scheme that does not involve spanking in any form. (I could spank my own kids, they wouldn't care, but it would be an uncomfortable dynamic -- to have some kids with one method and some with another in the same house.)
But with creativity and persistence, and knowing my kid well, we've been working together to make progress against the meltdowns -- no spanking needed, it turns out. Somehow I'm glad.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 9:32:18 AM
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justpassinby
Posts: 785
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keithyhuntington
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
What is making these kids so aggressive, since they're not being spanked?
the answer's in your question... 'not being spanked' 
i dont understand how anyone can be anti spank, when the very fundamental core of humanity is based on beating the tar out of your children in a loving and godly way. (not abuse) how many of our senior citizens today got the lashing of a lifetime for something as menial as quetsioning their parents authority? and today we have kids smartin' off, throwing tantrums, sucking thumbs, not getting jobs and living at home sponging off mom and dad at 25 with no goals in life... these kids are spoiled rotten and needed to be beat.
thats my oppinion. kids need more smackings today, and itll be like the old west days of kids being seen and not heard.
I agree 110%, kids definitely need spankings. Just don't let those in authority see it, ya know, the types that have self-righteous agencies to take kids away "for their own good" and run the likes of ACORN. Even King Solomon warned about sparing the rod in Proverbs, so reasonable spankings should actually be a freedom of religion right.
What ever happened to the old Victorian standards? The father had a handlebar mustache, and a switch no bigger than his pinky in diameter (societal control the intensity of the spanking) and he could hit his kid, and his wife if she misbehaved. I think I could do well in that era.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 3:40:48 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 3423
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
It is possible to raise many children through very careful methods that do not involve corporal punishment. As a parent that knows those methods, it is important for me to at least try teaching methods other than physical pain as a deterrent. If a parent can't manage that, or if it is clearly not working, and if they have no one to teach them -- then yes, it is kinder to a child to spank them than to let them become increasingly undisciplined at the core.
That's what previous generations did, and rightly so, because they didn't have the understanding (or the luxury) of working with more humane (but effective) methods.
For myself, I have had a difficult road, because I believe the above, and have wanted to at least try spanking with my 4 year old, since she is well behind her age group in the skill of getting a grip on a meltdown. However, we are in application to be foster parents, and corporal punishment is not allowed towards foster children -- so I have to stick to a parenting scheme that does not involve spanking in any form. (I could spank my own kids, they wouldn't care, but it would be an uncomfortable dynamic -- to have some kids with one method and some with another in the same house.)
But with creativity and persistence, and knowing my kid well, we've been working together to make progress against the meltdowns -- no spanking needed, it turns out. Somehow I'm glad.
quote:
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I tend to agree, but I also think it depends heavily on the child and their temperament.
I was a child who would do something even though I knew I would get spanked. Other methods of discipline definitely worked better for me...
With DD we have had to use a combination of spanking and gentle discipline. I find it interesting that she does not cry or even fuss if she was doing something obviously wrong, but she will fuss if she thinks she was wronged by the spanking. She's only two She is a highly intelligent child and for the most part will respond simply to my conversing with her about why we don't do something. But at the same time she is also exceptionally strong willed and WILL walk/run all over me in certain situations.
It's all a balancing act.
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 8:33:44 PM
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Shrommer
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When my son was just learning how to walk, he stuck his fingers at the outlet, and I said no. He stuck them there again, and I said no again. He stuck them there again and I slapped his hand lightly, but he cried and cried. My wife got upset with me. That was the first time I had ever hit him, but I feel like it was for his own good.
Our discipline later was that he would have to sit on time out as a punishment. When he insisted on coming off the time-out chair before the time was up (one minute per year of age, so at age 2, two minutes on time-out) ... then he would get a spanking. I tried to spank with a book, not my hand, and in a very calm explaining tone, not shouting or excited or mad. He got the idea, and after only two or three spankings in that time of life, he never got off time out until his time was up.
We did the same with our two daughters.
Other than that, I think I spanked my son once or twice as an alternative to time out, to discipline him for aggressive physical violence towards his sisters. Again, it was all explained what the punishment would be and why, and then administered, and then over. He's twelve now, and I think his last spanking was when he was nine or ten.
I don't expect to ever have to spank any of my three children again for anything, now that the girls are 10 and 11, and he is 12.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 8:46:49 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3186
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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I have heard of people recommending spanking infants at a month old, and I've heard them recommending spanking adult children who weren't even living at home. Beyond amazing, such ideas are clearly insane.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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Yeah, I suppose if a one year old is indiscriminately spanked for normal toddler behavior, that could cause some damage. How did the study define spanking and what were the children spanked for, I'm wondering?
