|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: To Spank - 10/8/2005 12:25:48 PM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7856
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Proverbs 10:13
Wise words come from the lips of people with understanding, but fools will be punished with a rod.
Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13
Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
Proverbs 29:15
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.
If Solomon thinks it's important, then so do I.
(the change in the above quotation is mine)
Nowhere does G-d say the above. Would we also attribute the words of satan, which are in the Bible, to G-d?
The above statement is false teaching. It puts the Proverbs on the same level as any wise saying and denies that Proverbs is the Word of God by simply chalking it up to the opinion of Solomon.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/8/2005 10:30:57 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3484
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
Oh? Are all of the statements of Solomon, then, supposed to be considered G-d's thoughts and G-d's ideas?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/8/2005 10:53:46 PM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7856
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Oh? Are all of the statements of Solomon, then, supposed to be considered G-d's thoughts and G-d's ideas?
The Bible is the word of God. I'm sure when Solomon said, "pass the potatoes" it wasn't the word of God. Your statement was to throw out Proverbs as simply Solomon's ideas, which puts God's word on the same level as any other wise sayings, without divine authority.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/9/2005 11:18:14 AM
|
|
|
bzirk
Posts: 3067
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
|
Post that Covaan_Meshuga commented on was good until the last line about Solomon. It seems like a small thing, and I'm sure the poster didn't mean it to be a problem, but really our belief in what Proverbs says should be predicated on it being the Lord's word and not on Solomon's word. I actually read past what the poster said and assumed they thought that as well. But some might read it literally that it's predicated on Solomon, and Covaan_Meshuga pointed that out.
Frankly, this kind of misunderstanding is the stuff that wearies me about Crosswalk.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/9/2005 11:37:43 AM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7856
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Post that Covaan_Meshuga commented on was good until the last line about Solomon. It seems like a small thing, and I'm sure the poster didn't mean it to be a problem, but really our belief in what Proverbs says should be predicated on it being the Lord's word and not on Solomon's word. I actually read past what the poster said and assumed they thought that as well. But some might read it literally that it's predicated on Solomon, and Covaan_Meshuga pointed that out.
Frankly, this kind of misunderstanding is the stuff that wearies me about Crosswalk.
No. I think Covaan_Meshuga changed it from "If God thinks it's important so do I" to "If Solomon thinks it's important, so do I," because she doesn't believe that Proverbs is the word of God. She believes it's the words of Solomon. Is that correct, Covaan_Meshuga? I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Also, if this is true, then what do you determine to be the word of God?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 9:52:56 AM
|
|
|
bzirk
Posts: 3067
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
|
I don't think it's a command to use the rod. I think it's a command not to rule out ever using the rod IF it ever becomes appropriate. Sometimes it never becomes appropriate. But if harsh punishment is necessary at some time, then don't be afraid to use it. That's what I get out of some of the scriptures in Proverbs.
As for the words just being Solomon's, I think you better study Proverbs again, and I think you better do a little study on Biblical intepretation. If you are going to dismiss Proverbs as just Solomon's words, that IS false teaching.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 10:36:17 AM
|
|
|
momfree
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I don't think it's a command to use the rod. I think it's a command not to rule out ever using the rod IF it ever becomes appropriate. Sometimes it never becomes appropriate. But if harsh punishment is necessary at some time, then don't be afraid to use it. That's what I get out of some of the scriptures in Proverbs.
As for the words just being Solomon's, I think you better study Proverbs again, and I think you better do a little study on Biblical intepretation. If you are going to dismiss Proverbs as just Solomon's words, that IS false teaching.
Ok, well thanks, most seem to make it a command, when it is not. I agree with what you said 1st paragraph.
For the millionth time I will say this on these forums-it is rude, arrogant to tell somebody to "study up" or "read your Bible" because they share a different interpretation. I didn't say I dismissed all Proverbs- I said there are many disclaimers about it being S. words. I'm free to have a non literal interpretation
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 10:43:36 AM
|
|
|
bzirk
Posts: 3067
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
|
I admit I could have said that in a kinder way. But the point is the same. You cannot dismiss Proverbs as merely Solomon's words. That's wrong. In fact, even Ecclesiastes cannot be summarily dismissed as Solomon's words, and there's some pretty negative stuff in there.
EDIT:
Interpreting Proverbs as the way not to raise kids is totally out of bounds with respect to the intent of the book.
< Message edited by bzirk -- 10/10/2005 10:48:16 AM >
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 12:28:33 PM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7856
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
See I agree and have brought the issue up before too. Why is it that all thru Proverbs more so than ANY other book there are a million one "disclaimers" these are the words of Solomon? Many of the "side effects" of his raising children w/the rod, we can tell by reading of the result of his evil, hated son. We aren't TOLD to do this, it is NOT a commandment, it was his advice (which didn't result too well either), maybe that's the moral of the story? TO say GOD commands us to do this is twisting of Scripture-I can think of only 10 commandments really...most other is instructional on living a holy life....it is NOT a commandment to spank and it's a very invalid "reason" to use.
This is one of the most convoluted arguments I have ever heard. If we follow that line of reasoning it would logically follow that anything written in Proverbs is suspect because Solomon had a lot of problems, which must be because of the things he believed, many of which are presented in Proverbs. So what it would come down to is that Proverbs is really a book of what not to do. There is no indication in scripture that that was the purpose of the book of Proverbs. Quite the opposite is true.
Proverbs is the inspired Word of God and was written for our instruction in how to live, not in how not to live. If it is only a book of Solomon’s fallible ideas that led to ruining his children, it should not be in the Bible. But it is in the Bible and is therefore considered to be the Word of God and is to be taken seriously rather than reasoned away.
quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
Why is it that all thru Proverbs more so than ANY other book there are a million one "disclaimers" these are the words of Solomon?
This is an extreme exaggeration. A million one? Hardly. If you do a word search on Proverbs, you will find that in Proverbs 1:1, Proverbs 10:1 and Proverbs 25:1, it is referred to as the proverbs of Solomon. It is not a disclaimer. It is a reminder that these are the proverbs that were written down by the wisest man in the world. His wisdom was given to him by God.
1 Kings 4:29
Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore.
1 Kings 10:24
All the earth was seeking the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom which God had put in his heart.
2 Chronicles 9:23
And all the kings of the earth were seeking the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom which God had put in his heart.
We have access to this wisdom that God gave to Solomon. We are greatly blessed that it was written down for us in the book of Proverbs. That is why it is stated at least three times that what we are reading are the proverbs of Solomon, so we will understand that it can be trusted, yet you would have us believe that the wisdom of Solomon isn’t wisdom at all, but will lead to ruin if we follow it.
< Message edited by cynthia -- 10/10/2005 12:32:55 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 12:45:52 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3484
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
quote:
So please answer the question put before you by Cynthia...
Is Proverbs the Word of God via Solomon or is it simply Solomon's personal opinions? Oh, my, WOF! Aren't we demanding!  I said I would answer for myself when I was through studying!
Let me ask you about this quotation from the Bible:quote:
Is not your fear if God your confidence And the integrity of your ways your hope? Remember now, who ever perished being innocent? Or where were the upright destroyed? According to what I have seen, those who plow iniquity And those who sow trouble harvest it. By the breath of God they perish . . . . Would you call these words the words G-d thinks are important? They are in the Bible, after all! Are they, then, the words and thoughts of G-d?
What about the words of the prophet Balaam? There was a time when he spoke righteously, and there was a time when he did not. Shall we call all his words "the words of G-d"? Certainly not!
We can take this another step. David, a man after G-d's own heart. The Bible even calls him a prophet. But shall we call all his words the words of God? Again, certainly not!
People are people, and people both have opinions and make mistakes. Fortunately for us, the Bible does not whitewash all of the characters in the Book, or we would not know that we will also have bad opinions and make mistakes.
Solomon, son of David, was not obedient to G-d. He went against one of the first commands: that of one woman and one man. Worse yet, he sought out wives from pagan nations, marrying hundreds of them. He built high places for their gods, which was obviously not what G-d said to do and in fact the opposite of what He said to do.
Read his final thoughts. Do they sound like the thoughts of a man who lived a full life in G-d? No, they sound like a bitter old man.
So I read His advice on child-rearing. Oddly, nowhere else in the Bible do I read the same advice! G-d does not suggest beating them with a rod, because they will not die! We know today that children do die from such beatings! And immediately, someone will bring up the Scripture where parents are advised to stone a son who is a biligerant drunkard. Read it in Hebrew: this is an adult son who has never mended his ways, not a child!
Further, when I read Solomon's advice on child-rearing, I cannot help but think, "What kind of father are we to suppose he was to his numerous children? Was he present for them? Was he able to give them, to use a modern term, 'quality time'?" We deride modern fathers, who have not been this bad, for their lack of integrity toward their children -- fathers who think it is enough to give them things but little of their time.
Solomon was given as an example. His beginning as king was that of an humble man, seeking G-d. G-d gave him what he desired: wisdom. With his wisdom, he sought out many things, expanding his world. But he went down from there and quickly. Wasting what G-d had given him, although he was allowed to build the Temple because G-d does not go back on His word, Solomon brought idol worship into Israel.
So are his words the words of G-d?
What about quote:
Is not your fear if God your confidence And the integrity of your ways your hope? Remember now, who ever perished being innocent? Or where were the upright destroyed? According to what I have seen, those who plow iniquity And those who sow trouble harvest it. By the breath of God they perish . . . . Are these the words of G-d? I hope not, because for saying these and other words, Eliphaz was told by God, quote:
My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right to my servant job. He was then told to, with his two friends, to sacrifice seven bulls and seven rams for themselves, while Job would pray for them.
When I see something in the Bible that goes along with my own philosophy, I may also tend to think, "These are the thoughts of G-d!" But this is not always the case. I think we have to look closely at the one "speaking," and discern whether or not what they are saying is, in deed, the words of G-d. Not all words in the Word of G-d are the words of G-d!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 12:50:06 PM
|
|
|
momfree
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Cynthia, don't add to it please. I didn't say the entire book should be discounted. IMO, though God gave him wisdom, it didn't exactly remain with him (see Solomons life towards the end) As God Giveth, He taketh away. It is my opinion, and my view that his view in child rearing did NOT result as they should have, which is why I dont' personaly follow the reasoning to it. Beat your child w/a rod, he'll end up an evil dictator kwim? I'm not saying the entire book is that way! Just as much as I see so incredibly wrong in things that Abraham did and the consequences till this day of the generational curse if you will for abandoning his child to die (Ishamael). Even if he was a man of God. There are things they did, that obviously brought on serious consequences. That is the way I see it of course, and again we can disagree until we're blue in the face, bottom line is, if you want to spank, fine, I've used in on ocassion myself before. I have a problem w/people justifying it becaues of Scripture, or God tells us to do it, whe it's not true.
If that's the case we should be beating fools w/a rod over the back also....why aren't you?
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 3:45:43 PM
|
|
|
cynthia
Posts: 7856
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
|
Abiya, when you are quoting scripture, can you please give us the scripture reference? I am also interested in knowing what translation you use.
When we read the scripture, we have to understand context. The context of Proverbs is to teach and for us to receive that instruction. The words of Baalam were recorded as part of the story that was being told, in which Baalam had a part. Baalam’s words were not recorded as instructions for anyone to follow, but as a record of what he said in the incidence being recorded. It is a different matter than a book that is specifically written for the purpose of instruction in righteousness.
We have to understand the purpose and context of the scripture in order to gain understanding and apply it as wisdom. What would be the point of a book of proverbs if not for us to learn from them and take them seriously? If we pick and chose which ones we want to believe or not, based on our own values, we put the word of God on the same level as the sayings of Confucius.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Read his final thoughts. Do they sound like the thoughts of a man who lived a full life in G-d? No, they sound like a bitter old man.
That is the point of Ecclesiastes. It is not a set of instructions, as Proverbs is, it is more of memoir of what happened when he strayed from the path of righteousness and what he has come to at the end. There is much wisdom there, but it is not presented in the same manner as Proverbs, nor is it to be viewed in the same manner.
quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
Cynthia, don't add to it please. I didn't say the entire book should be discounted.
Momfree, what I did was to use simple logic. The point you are making is illogical. It doesn’t make sense. If you discount part of the book based on certain logic, then by that very same logic the entire book of Proverbs must also be discounted. If you believe part of the book of Proverbs is simply a book written by a man, rather than a book of wisdom written through the inspiration of God, then you cannot trust any of it as godly wisdom. This is not adding to what you are saying. It is pointing out where your statements lead and what they mean. Either it’s the word of God or it isn’t.
quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
It is my opinion, and my view that his view in child rearing did NOT result as they should have, which is why I dont' personaly follow the reasoning to it. Beat your child w/a rod, he'll end up an evil dictator kwim?
You are making an assumption. For one thing, you don’t know how Solomon raised his children or even, for that matter, whether he raised them or not. His children may have been raised by their mothers with very little input from King Solomon. Furthermore, it could be that he saw the damage that lack of discipline makes in a child’s life and his understanding came from his own experience.
If a person uses a rod to beat their child, within proper scriptural guidelines, not according to how we would define beat today, the child will not be harmed for it. Personally, I believe that spanking has its place. However, it is by no means the only form of correction, nor does the scripture teach that it is. Proverbs clearly teaches that spanking is appropriate and sometimes necessary for proper child teaching. The only way to get around spanking being biblical is to discount Proverbs being the word of God and just a book written by a bad father.
quote:
If that's the case we should be beating fools w/a rod over the back also....why aren't you?
No, I do not personally have the authority to do that. However, I do believe that if we were to beat the foolish who break laws and bring trouble in our society, rather than incarcerting them we would have a more ordered society.
< Message edited by cynthia -- 10/10/2005 11:19:16 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 4:40:36 PM
|
|
|
stateofgrace
Posts: 1942
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Just a couple of things to bring up concerning Proverbs. After we had gone through all the mess with "he who must not be named" (see my blog) and his teachings on chastisement, I was really challenged by some of the discussion among Christians on the web who gathered on the "he who must not be named" discussion/debate boards.
I learned that the Hebrew word that is translated as "child" in the rod verses is "Na`ar." You can look it up here at Crosswalk's listing of Strong's Lexicon for OT Hebrew. This word is most correctly used in the context of: boy, lad, servant, youth, retainer.
There is a different word in Hebrew that signifies an unweaned child. Since the Hebrews typically nursed into the preschool years (as late as age 5), this would encomopass most of the time period we in recent culture have advocated spanking...toddler and preschool years.
In addition, when one looks at the word "rod" -- it is "Shebet" in Hebrew, meaning:
rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe
1. rod, staff
2. shaft (of spear, dart)
3. club (of shepherd's implement)
4. truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)
5. clan, tribe
Only the word "offshoot" tends to be anything close to a switch, or something flexible. Looking at the whole context of the defintion, this is usually something NON-FLEXIBLE, firm, unyeilding. In some cases, it is referring to a symbol of authority. In other cases, it's referring to a tribal group or clan (although we can likely rule that one out in most of the Proverbs verses due to context).
So, when we look at a Proverb like 23:13 (Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.) -- IMO we need to recognize that what the writer is referring to is beating an adolescent/youth with a strong, inflexible object. Reasonably, the reason why the young man isn't going to die is that he is older, possibly adult-size, and certainly stronger then a young child. A beating will not kill him, whereas it might kill the young child.
This is not the same thing at all as spanking a preschooler with a couple of quick swats to the behind. What is described here is more like the canning done in Singapore to rebellious young men.
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
|
|
|
|
|
RE: To Spank - 10/10/2005 4:56:38 PM
|
|
|
turretinfan
Posts: 5276
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Oh? Are all of the statements of Solomon, then, supposed to be considered G-d's thoughts and G-d's ideas?
I'm concerned by your scruple about not putting the name of Him who created the earth into writing in its entirety.
Nevertheless, the short answer to your questi | | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
