|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2007 7:50:41 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
I had a question about this. Do you suppose that the immediate followers of Christ at the time he was on earth - were saved? Peter, Mary Magdalene, James, John? Was the faith that they were able to have in Jesus when He said "I am the son of man..." a saving faith, and did they experience this re-birth?
Interested in your opinion.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2007 11:43:10 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2598
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
Being born again is simply a birth. If you look at the parable of the sower you will see that the seed did take root in some but they fell away because of persecution. There was a birth of sorts but they never grew to maturity.
Who plants and waters and gives the increase ? NOT US !
Here's what Jesus said on the matter...
Matthew 15:13 (American Standard Version)
13 But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up.
What about being born of imperishable seed ?
Born of God, planted by God, nurtured by God.
1 Peter 1:23 (American Standard Version)
23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2007 11:47:57 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2598
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
First of all I said that Salvation was not an event, I said nothing about the new birth. A birth is just a beginning, it is not the end. That is why there are warnings about abiding in Christ and enduring to the end.
What is your definition of salvation? How does the new birth relate to salvation? Are those born again not saved from the wrath to come?
blessings,
SH
Relationship!
ADOPTION !
Ephesians 1:5 (American Standard Version)
5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2007 6:06:26 PM
|
|
|
Aphobos
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline
|
Salvation can neither be lost nor undone. Once a person embraces the gospel in genuine faith, that person is saved eternally. So get over it. Either fall on your face before His throne and praise Him for His grace that keeps you, or fall backward in fear and in trembling, for you have likely embraced "another gospel", which is no gospel at all (Gal 1:8).
~Aphobos
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2007 5:50:09 AM
|
|
|
SureHope
Posts: 1592
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
|
wacotton,
quote:
It is a birth, a new beginning. The seed that fell on the rocky soil did come to life but then died.
It seems like you are taking the parable where it was not intended. Only one soil understood - the good soil. If you do not have spiritual understanding you are not born again.
Salvation is inseperably linked to regeneration; being born again.
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5-7 NASB95)
Salvation according to Scripture is an event. Paul wrote to Titus, "He saved us," which is describing an event that took place in the past, done by "regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." Paul connects regeneration ("being made alive together with Christ") with salvation,
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (Ephesians 2:5 NASB95)
Being made alive together with Christ and being saved (past tense event) are linked together. Being created in Christ Jesus (regeneration) is directly linked to being saved (past tense event).
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB95)
Salvation is described as a past tense event in Romans,
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? (Romans 8:24 NASB95)
"We have been saved" describes something that has already happened in the past - an event. There is a "day of salvation" which implies an event.
for He says, “At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you.” Behold, now is “the acceptable time,” behold, now is “the day of salvation”— (2 Corinthians 6:2 NASB95)
Salvation is a past tense event that secures our future ultimate salvation.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:9-10 NASB95)
Genuine believers "have been justified by His blood" (past tense), how much more then "we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." The hard part was being justified by His blood, how much more, having been justified by His blood shall we be saved in the ultimate sense. The hard part was being "reconciled to God through the death of His Son." "Much more," since the work of Christ has reconciled us to God there is a security in our ultimate future salvation, " much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
Paul makes clear that salvation that has been given (past tense) secures our ultimate salvation (future tense). Thank God those who are born again are saved from the wrath to come. Thank God in those who are regenerated God is working in them both to will and do of His good pleasure. God gives those who are born again a desire to do His will - to believe on Him and persevere to the end - He is well able to keep us from falling.
But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38-39 NASB95)
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2008 1:19:23 AM
|
|
|
Okami
Posts: 1008
Joined: 9/26/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
Thought I'd resurrect this one for a bit.
Here are a few verses that should show what the New Testament teaches on the issue of “leaving your salvation”. (not "losing", but "leaving")
There are more passages that could be considered, but these should be enough to demonstrate that every New Testament author issues at least one warning against returning to former ways of life before one is born again, presenting the very real danger of “leaving one’s salvation” altogether.
In Matthew 24:45-51, Jesus speaks of a person that was the servant of a particular Master, who began to say to himself, “my Master delays in His coming”, and backslides. Jesus says that “his Master” will come back, cut him in two, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites.
In Mark 4:16-17, but more specifically in Luke 8:13 Jesus speaks about the heart that is the shallow ground, believing and receiving the Word of God for a season, who “believe for awhile and… fall away.”
In John 15:6, Jesus warns that “if anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered, and they gather them into the fire and they are burned”.
Romans 11:22 describes both the “goodness and the severity of God”, in the context that those who do not continue in belief will be “cut off” as unbelieving Israel was.
In Colossians 1:22,23 Paul speaks about believers who will be presented holy before the Father “if you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard…”
In Hebrews 3:14, the author writes about how we will be saved in JC if we hold fast our confidence until the end.
In Hebrews 6:4-6, the author writes about those that had “been enlightened, tasted the Heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come” and yet “fall away”. In that passage I see the best description of salvation given in the entire Bible, and yet also a description of one that hardens his heart and walks away from Jesus altogether.
James 5:19-20 talks about a brother who wanders from the truth, and says that if he is turned back his soul has been spared from death. This speaks of the possibility of being renewed again to repentance, but also the reality that if he does not, his soul would perish (see Ezekiel 18, especially verses 4 and 21-28).
In 2 Peter 2:20, Peter writes about believers who had “escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” but are “again entangled in them and overcome”, and how “the latter end is worse for them than the beginning”.
Jude 12 describes those that are “twice dead”. That speaks about those that were dead, were made alive in Christ, and then became dead again.
In Revelation 3:14-22, John writes of those who had been believers, but who had grown lukewarm, and how Jesus warns “I will vomit you out of My mouth”.
It can be discouraging to look at those verses all at once, but I feel compelled to speak the truth in love, even if it’s difficult. However, remember that the issue isn’t that a person who desires to be saved can sin their way out from under Jesus’ blood. That isn’t going to happen. Those verses are not for the person who struggles with sin, hates it, and hopes in Jesus for salvation. God’s grace can cover all of our sin, and has covered it if we’re in Christ. Where sin super-abounds, grace abounds much more. It’s an issue of belief and desire. For those that have identified with Jesus’ death on the cross, the gift of justification is theirs, no matter what they’ve done.
_____________________________
My ancestors were humans. Sorry to hear about yours.
Bible answer men the way it should be done.
No shows focused on their books, their guests books, nor religion bashing. Just calls and answers.
http://www.csnradio.com/tema
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2008 2:46:13 AM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2169
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
Thank you, Okami, for that.
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 1:25:41 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
wacotton,
quote:
It is a birth, a new beginning. The seed that fell on the rocky soil did come to life but then died.
It seems like you are taking the parable where it was not intended. Only one soil understood - the good soil. If you do not have spiritual understanding you are not born again.
SH, Seems you have taken the parable where it never went. Only 1 soil produced fruit; that says nothing about understanding, only about production.
Could I get your pov on Jesus' plain words of Luke 8:12? Do you agree that He was equating believing with being saved? If not, why not.
And, in v.13 He tells us that the second "believed for a while". I say the second soil were believers without production, as Jesus indicated. Why do you reject that they were saved, since Jesus said they believed and equated believing with being saved in v.12?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/27/2008 7:23:43 PM
|
|
|
GodisLove1
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
|
I just cant understand how there are so many out there who believe that they can loose thier salvation after having called upon the name of the Lord Jesus to save them, confessing him with their mouth, and believing in their heart that God has raised him from the dead.
For me, to think it's even a possibility, is to stir up anxiety and fear in me! But, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to "be anxious for nothing" and to "fear not."
This "saved now but possibly lost sometime in the future" belief says to me that there is "something" or "somethings" I must continue to do or not do(even though I dont know what it is) to remain saved. Doesn't that ultimately place our eternal destiny squarely on our ability and not on God's ability? It's clear to me that it does and not only that but it would give us something to boast about.
The whole idea tramples all over the province of grace, which is what we are saved by. And it also, sends a message to others that we need to constantly watch, be alert, and never let our guard down! But, be alert of what? or watch for what? or let our guard against what down?
It sets the stage for a life of bondage to all who fear they may someday loose what God has given them through his Son Jesus. And what is it that God has given us through his Son? It is eternal life! So, if it is eternal then its eternal!
It appears to me that there are two catagories of people who believe they can loose their salvation and they are those who believe they can but, they dont know how. I believe these are those Christians who live in torment for much of their lives. The other group are those who believe they can loose their salvation by doing this or that or not doing this or that. Some, but not all, of these people seem to have an aire of superiority about them, boastful and proud of what they do and dont do as if it makes them more pleasing to the Lord than others. These are the ones who often become finger pointers and accusers, critical of the way others live, passing judgement on them for the deeds of the flesh.
If God's word isn't clear on but one thing; it is that nothing we do or dont do neither pleases God nor does it disappoint him. But, it is what Jesus Christ has done that make us pleasing to him and that alone! His word tells us that all "our" works are as filthy rags. To God be the glory!
I know there are those who maintain the we must "continue" to believe. So, if someone stops believing, their no longer saved. But, then they will say John dont believe anymore becase he does.... or dont do... which again places conditions upon God's love and sabatoges the province of grace. Other may say, "no... we have the ability to loose faith and thus our salvation." Nowhere does the Bible tell us that were saved by our faith. But it proclaims that were saved by grace through faith, and even that faith through which God saves us by grace is not from us! It too is a gift from God. Moreover, God's word tells us that when we are faithless he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
My hope is that the Holy Spirit will reveal to those who believe their salvation can be lost, that to be a Christian means to know it is God's love that has saved us through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and it is His faithfulness that keeps us forever, not ours.
"you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/27/2008 11:19:42 PM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 746
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
For me, to think it's even a possibility, is to stir up anxiety and fear in me! But, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to "be anxious for nothing" and to "fear not."
There is nothing to fear unless you depart from Christ.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
< Message edited by wacotton -- 2/27/2008 11:26:27 PM >
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 12:42:05 AM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 432
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
I just cant understand how there are so many out there who believe that they can loose thier salvation after having called upon the name of the Lord Jesus to save them, confessing him with their mouth, and believing in their heart that God has raised him from the dead.
You can't lose something you don't have. All we have by these acts of faith that you mention is the PROMISE of salvation. The KEY here is that those are acts of faith. If you are not found in the faith when He returns, you will not receive the culmination of the promise -- eternal life with God.
quote:
For me, to think it's even a possibility, is to stir up anxiety and fear in me! But, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us to "be anxious for nothing" and to "fear not."
You take these snipets out of context. In the context of Phil 4, we are to standfast (vs 1) -- be stationary -- in the Lord. We are to be "anxious" about nothing in THIS life -- food, clothing, hardships, etc., because we are to bring such things to God in prayer and supplication (vs. 6), so that the "peace of God" will keep us in Christ (vs 7).
As to "fear not", again you misrepresent His word -- taken out of context and sound doctrine --
Rom 11:20-22 This is true; yet it was their unbelief that cut them off, and you only stand through your faith. Do not be puffed up with pride. Tremble rather--for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Notice therefore God's kindness and God's severity. On those who have fallen His severity has descended, but upon you His kindness has come, provided that you do not cease to respond to that kindness. Otherwise you will be cut off also.
quote:
This "saved now but possibly lost sometime in the future" belief says to me that there is "something" or "somethings" I must continue to do or not do(even though I dont know what it is) to remain saved.
I haven't met one opponent of OSAS who believes we are saved now and need to remain saved. Too bad you don't know that there is something we must do -- stay in the faith.
quote:
Doesn't that ultimately place our eternal destiny squarely on our ability and not on God's ability?
No more than calling upon Him, confessing His name and believing with our hearts (as you admitted we must do) is based on our ability and not God's. Salvation is by God's grace through faith. Without faith there is no salvation.
quote:
It's clear to me that it does and not only that but it would give us something to boast about.
Maybe you need thicker glasses? Faith is a gift from God. We boast in the Lord for our faith.
quote:
The whole idea tramples all over the province of grace, which is what we are saved by. We are saved by grace through faith -- not grace alone.
quote:
And it also, sends a message to others that we need to constantly watch, be alert, and never let our guard down! But, be alert of what? or watch for what? or let our guard against what down?
Which we are admonished to do throughout the NT. Read it again and you'll see "what".
quote:
It sets the stage for a life of bondage to all who fear they may someday loose what God has given them through his Son Jesus.
No it doesn't. It sets the stage for a life of serving God -- willingly. We have been given the promise -- as long as we remain faithful we will receive eternal life.
quote:
And what is it that God has given us through his Son? It is eternal life! So, if it is eternal then its eternal!
It is the life that is eternal, NOT the promise. Eternal life cannot be inherited by a corruptible body. Until our bodies are made incorruptible, we cannot inherit eternal life.
quote:
It appears to me that there are two catagories of people who believe they can loose their salvation ...
Seeing as how you don't understand what opponents of OSAS believe, what "appears" to you is nothing more than a delusion.
quote:
If God's word isn't clear on but one thing; it is that nothing we do or dont do neither pleases God nor does it disappoint him.
Being faithful doesn't please God? Please provide scripture as to this "clear" biblical position.
quote:
His word tells us that all "our" works are as filthy rags.
"Our" works and the works of the HS are two different things. Claiming that opponents of OSAS believe in a works based salvation is a strawman.
quote:
I know there are those who maintain the we must "continue" to believe. So, if someone stops believing, their no longer saved.
If you hold that we don't have to "continue" to believe, then stop believing and let's see what happens. Shall we?
quote:
Other may say, "no... we have the ability to loose faith and thus our salvation."
That is a truthful statement.
quote:
Nowhere does the Bible tell us that were saved by our faith. But it proclaims that were saved by grace through faith, and even that faith through which God saves us by grace is not from us! It too is a gift from God.
No one is claiming we are saved by "our" faith. It is the faith given to us by God which we are to hold onto. Any other faith is not a saving faith.
quote:
Moreover, God's word tells us that when we are faithless he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
Another verse misinterpreted because its taken out of context. It helps if you look at the whole passage. In the verse just prior to that, it says if we disown (deny) Him, He will disown (deny) us. In context, that verse says God remains faithful to HIMSELF. If He has said that we must be found in the faith when He returns or we will not receive eternal life, then we must -- or we will not receive eternal life. It's quite simple.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
<><
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 6:41:23 PM
|
|
|
GodisLove1
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Wacotton,
just how do you KNOW if you have departed from Christ?
the thing is, I KNOW He will not depart from me!
Wild,
[quote]You can't lose something you don't have. All we have by these acts of faith that you mention is the PROMISE of salvation.[/quote]
You always speak of salvation as something that is going to take place in the future. God's word tells us that "now is the day of salvation".
actually, according to you analogy everyone on both sides of the OSAS debate is wrong because you apparently dont believe anyone IS saved.
by the way, is Gods promise ever to be revoked??
your a very confused person.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 1:11:25 AM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 746
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
Wacotton,
just how do you KNOW if you have departed from Christ?
the thing is, I KNOW He will not depart from me!
Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Luke 12:41-46
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 1:20:38 AM
|
|
|
wacotton
Posts: 746
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
The same lie that the serpent told Eve in the garden of Eden is the same lie satan tells people today, "Ye shall not surely die!" And Christians seem to buy into the lie more than the heathen.
Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 10:38:55 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1784
Status: offline
|
quote:
All we have by these acts of faith that you mention is the PROMISE of salvation.
Did you find this in the Bible, or is this just your own misunderstanding of salvation?
The one who believe receives the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus the believer becomes a child of God and a temple of God: "For ye ARE the temple of the living God" (2 Cor. 6:16). Notice that "are" in present tense.
If God lives within the Christian, then that is not merely a "promise" of a future salvation, but a present reality of being united to God through Christ. That is irreversible, since it entails the New Birth.
Once a birth takes place, that child for ever remains the child of his parents. So it is with one who is born from above. He receives eternal life -- the life of God within. He remains a child of God, to whom God says "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee".
And faith is not the "key" but grace is the key. You could have all the faith in the world, but if salvation were not by grace, your faith would have no value.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 2:06:37 PM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 432
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
Wild,
You always speak of salvation as something that is going to take place in the future.
Because God's word does not say the day of salvation is in the past -- it says we were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Salvation is past, present and future.
If you do NOT believe you will be saved in the future, then you do NOT have hope of salvation.
Rom 8:24=
For we were saved with this hope in mind. Now hope that is seen is not really hope, for who hopes for what can be seen?
So, what do you have? You certainly do not have on the armor of God -- which, if you lived by the word of God, you would have on.
1Th 5:8 =
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober. We must put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
quote:
God's word tells us that "now is the day of salvation".
You really need to look at context and sound doctrine instead of proof-texting snipets of scripture to form a false doctrine. The error you are making could be fatal.
If "now" literally "is the day of salvation", then what particular "day" was Paul speaking of? According to your view, unless you accepted Christ on the day Paul addressed this verse to the Corinthians, you will not be saved. According to your view, "the day of salvation" was about 1,960 years ago -- you've missed it.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say salvation is in the past based on this proof-text unless you're prepared to say that we've missed it.
According to your view, no one will be saved but those who accepted Christ on that particular day.
Fortunately, the "salvation" spoken of is Christ -- He is our salvation. In context, the "day of salvation" refers to the fact that the prophesied Messiah had come (the "acceptable time") and died for you, so you would do well to accept Him now (today), because we do not know what tomorrow holds. We do not know the day or the hour when He is coming for His children. Don't wait to accept the promise of salvation because it may be too late -- now is a day of salvation.
2Co 5:20-6:2 =
Therefore, we serve as ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as though God [were] appealing through us: we implore [you*] on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
For the One not having known sin, He made sin on our behalf, so that _we_ shall become [the] righteousness of God in Him!
Now working together [with Him] we also call on [or, plead with] [you* that] you* do not receive the grace of God in emptiness [fig., without results]-
for He says, "In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you." Listen! Now [is the] acceptable time. Listen! Now [is the] day of salvation- [Isaiah 49:8]
2Co 6:17-18 =
For this reason, "Come out from [the] midst of them and be separated," says the Lord. "And stop touching [any] unclean [or, defiling] [thing; or, person]," and _I_ will receive you*. [Isaiah 52:11; Ezek 20:34,41]
"And I will be to you* for a Father, and _you*_ will be to Me for sons and daughters, says the LORD Almighty." [2Sam 7:14; Isaiah 43:6; Jer 31:9]
Clearly, this is a plea for the people in Corinth, who were very lax in their morals due to living in a heathen atmosphere, to not receive Christ in vain (vs 3-16); to separate themselves so that they will be called sons of God and God will receive them.
If you want God to receive you, you must be separated from immorality.
It doesn't matter if you've professed faith in the past -- if you are not living in the faith, then you are living a lie.
Also look in Luke 19:9. When Jesus was passing through Jerusalem and the rich, tax collector, Zacchaeus, was desparately seeking to know who He was -- upon being called by Jesus, Zacchaeus came to Him, welcomed Him in and repented. Jesus then said: "Today salvation has come to this home, because he, too, is a descendant of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost."
Can you honestly read these verses and not see that the "day of salvation" was NOT an actual day, but a time period since the Messiah has come through the present and until His future coming?
Sorry, but the "day of salvation" is not in the past. We are living in it -- and when He comes again, we shall receive the culmination of the promise received of this "day" -- eternal life.
1Jn 2:25=
And this is the promise which He promised us - eternal life.
quote:
actually, according to you analogy everyone on both sides of the OSAS debate is wrong because you apparently dont believe anyone IS saved.
No, but this would be a correct assumption according to YOUR analogy -- because that day was in the past and all men since have had NO chance to be saved.
quote:
by the way, is Gods promise ever to be revoked??
Did God only make one promise? Funny, I read several promises God has made. And, because I believe God keeps His promises, I choose to believe them all -- not just one.
quote:
your a very confused person.
I'm not the one trying to aruge against something I don't understand. You may be confused about what I believe, but I am not.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
<><
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 2:19:39 PM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodisLove1
Wild,
You always speak of salvation as something that is going to take place in the future.
Because God's word does not say the day of salvation is in the past -- it says we were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Salvation is past, present and future.
For an excellent study of the three tenses of salvation, check this link. Just scroll down about a third of the way down the screen.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 3:31:52 PM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 432
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
All we have by these acts of faith that you mention is the PROMISE of salvation.
Did you find this in the Bible, or is this just your own misunderstanding of salvation?
This is found in the Bible. And you can find it too -- if you look at the whole Word of God.
Accepting Christ as your savior is an act of faith, NOT of your own doing. If you disagree, please show me the scripture that says being born again is a work of man -- not God.
quote:
The one who believe receives the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus the believer becomes a child of God and a temple of God: "For ye ARE the temple of the living God" (2 Cor. 6:16). Notice that "are" in present tense.
If God lives within the Christian, then that is not merely a "promise" of a future salvation, but a present reality of being united to God through Christ.
I have never argued against the fact that we "are" (present tense) the temple of God because we have the Spirit living inside us. I have also never argued against the fact that the Spirit living inside us is a present reality of being united to God through Christ. However, that in no way proves that the "promise" is not for the future.
You correctly say, "IF God lives within the Christian ...". In order for God to live in you, you must live in Him. To "live" in Him is not PAST tense. If you are NOT living in Him in the present, then He is NOT living in you in the present. For it is not I who lives, but Christ who lives in me. (Gal 2:20)
quote:
That is irreversible, since it entails the New Birth.
Being born again is NOT an "irreversible" event. Which brings us back around to your misunderstanding of the new birth.
quote:
Once a birth takes place, that child for ever remains the child of his parents. So it is with one who is born from above.
Once again, the logical argument of man -- void of spritual understanding. You have much to learn from Niccodemus.
The second birth is a spiritual regeneration. It has nothing to do with physical birth, thus the two cannot be compared.
According to your view, since we are not born children of God, we can never be children of God because we will forever remain children of fallen, sinful man.
Adoption blows your argument away. You fail to account for the fact that we become adopted children of God -- we are never physically birthed by God. God only had one begotten Son. Neither you nor I are Him.
Though we have the right to call ourselves Children of God now because He lives in us, the adoption will not be finalized until He comes to get us and take us home with Him.
quote:
He receives eternal life -- the life of God within.
Those who are born again receive the promise of eternal life.
Though eternal life was manifested to us in Christ, is abiding in us because Christ is abiding in us, and we are ordained to it by faith in Him -- that does not mean we have it NOW.
Eternal life is incorruptible. Our corruptible bodies cannot inherit the incorruptible. (1Co 15)
Mat 25:46=
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mar 10:30=
who shall not receive a hundred times as much now, in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, with persecutions, and in the coming age, eternal life.
quote:
He remains a child of God, to whom God says "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee".
He won't, but we can. And, if we deny Him, He will deny us. (2Tim 2:12)
quote:
And faith is not the "key" but grace is the key. You could have all the faith in the world, but if salvation were not by grace, your faith would have no value.
I never claimed salvation was by faith alone. I said salvation wasn't by grace alone. Salvation is by grace through faith. One needs BOTH to obtain salvation. Faith is the key -- a "key" opens things. Because His grace is only unlocked through faith -- faith is the "key". Without faith, there is no grace. Without grace, there is no salvation.
By faith, it is understood we are speaking of the faith given to us by God, not just faith in anything. Since God promised salvation by Grace through faith, then you would be making Him a liar to claim that one who had great faith would not be saved by His grace.
I cannot fathom people who view faith with such triviality, yet Jesus knew it would come to this -- that's why He said, "But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" (Luk 18:8)
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
<><
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 6:02:20 PM
|
|
|
GodisLove1
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/23/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
You really need to look at context and sound doctrine instead of proof-texting snipets of scripture to form a false doctrine. The error you are making could be fatal.
Fatal?? how arrogant for you to make a statement like that! I don't even know what you mean when you say Im proof-texting snipets of scripture.
I think its very ironic that you quote in the closing of all your posts, "Stop being afraid, just keep believing", when the statement you just made about me is obviously one intended to insteal FEAR!
When did I ever say I didn't BELIEVE? And how can the fact that I believe that the Lord God is able to keep that which he has promised, against that day, be an error? let alone a fatal error??
quote:
If "now" literally "is the day of salvation", then what particular "day" was Paul speaking of? According to your view, unless you accepted Christ on the day Paul addressed this verse to the Corinthians, you will not be saved. According to your view, "the day of salvation" was about 1,960 years ago -- you've missed it.
Thats the most rediculous twist I have ever seen put on that scripture!
How bullheaded can a person be?? "NOW" simply means the PRESENT!
I'm not going to argue with you about this topic, I see you have made up your mind.
However, I will say that I WAS saved 30 years ago. it was then that I saw that I was a sinner and stood guilty before a Holy God. I knew I needed to be forgiven, I knew I needed a savior.
I recognized Jesus Christ as the one and only savior of the world and I asked him to forgive me of ALL my sin and to save my soul. I called upon his name and was saved! I also know that he who promised is faithful and he will never forsake anyone.
I believed upon him and received eternal life. He said "whosoever believeth in me, HAS eternal life."
I know in whom I have believed and having believed I know he has given me eternal life, for he has proclaimed it in his word.
Futhermore, for me to believe I could loose Gods gift of eternal life (salvation), to me, is to doubt His faithfulness, His ability and His truthfullness.
Dont get me wrong though, Im not saying that everyone who doesn't believe in OSAS doubts God has or will save them. Though im sure some do, but most, I believe, are just mislead, confused and/or immature Christians.
Also, we all have doubts in life because were human. For instance, if we were to experience a tragedy that we had always hopped we would never have to face, and we prayed often to the Lord, that it would never come to pass, then it did. Wouldn't we wonder why? Probably so, but would it cause the Lord to be | | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
