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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 3:17:27 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
However, whether or not they are believers or unbelievers, the point of the verse is that Christ died for everyone, effectively purchasing eternal life as a free gift for everyone.
Are we looking at the same verse?
2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
That's the verse I am commenting on. How do you view the "false teachers"; as believers or unbelievers?
They can't be believers because they are false teachers.
Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
What happens when we have God's spirit in us?
Ezekiel 26
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Then who is the verse referencing as once being boughten?
Bought with the blood of Christ or bought from slavery in Egypt?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 8:24:20 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Bought with the blood of Christ or bought from slavery in Egypt?
Why do you bring up slavery in Egypt? Where is that in the text? The issue is false teachers who deny the sovereign Lord who bought them. The same Greek word is used to describe believers in 1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23. The issue is bought by Christ.
btw, who was "bought from slavery in Egypt"? The Jews weren't bought from slavery. Pharaoh let them go. In fact, they were given riches before they went. If anyting, they were given their freedom, and paid for their services.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 9:14:53 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
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Exodus 15
13Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
It was God Who redeemed the Israelites from Egypt. The Israelites had been in Egyptian bondage for nearly a century. Remember the parting of the Red Sea?
2 Samuel 7
23And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 3:36:57 PM
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abu_khomar
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why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 5:38:34 PM
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wacotton
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These three passages are clear warnings to believers about the danger of falling away.
Luke 12:46 speaks of having "his portion with the unbelievers" and we know where they will end up.
Romans 11 speaks of being "cut off" if we don't continue in His goodness.
Hebrews 10 speaks of one who was "sancitified by the blood of the covenant" suffering a worse punishment than those who died without mercy under the law of Moses.
Luke 12:45-46
45.But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46.The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Romans 11:20-22
20.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21.For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22.Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .
Hebrews 10:25-29
25.Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching .
26.For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27.But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28.He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29.Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 5:41:52 PM
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JimboFletch
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For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
-2 Timothy 1:12
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 5:48:12 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5705
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
-2 Timothy 1:12
Amen, JF!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 6:46:41 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 6:59:27 PM
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URForgiven
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I have to say I am astounded that ya'll could keep this discussion going as long as you have. It is truly a statement about the failure of Christians and Christianity in general to teach and pass on the truth. A sad statement.
When you know what salvation is, and when you know Who God is, then you know what 'security' is. Salvation is the receiving of life...eternal life. God is not a liar, if He says the life He gives is eternal, then it is eternal. Period. End of discussion. By definition eternal life is...ETERNAL.
There, I am glad I could clear this up for you all. I am sure you will all move on now that you know the truth.
Yeah right...
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 9:22:23 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/15/2008 11:56:58 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
People in the future could be of the house of Israel.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 9:50:15 AM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
People in the future could be of the house of Israel.
The House of Israel...from egypt right? Seriously, Free Grace did a great job of showing you that it isnt not anything related to egypt in post 3327
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 10:38:58 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
People in the future could be of the house of Israel.
The House of Israel...from egypt right? Seriously, Free Grace did a great job of showing you that it isnt not anything related to egypt in post 3327
Where does the verse say that the false teachers are Gentiles?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 2:57:58 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 98
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
People in the future could be of the house of Israel.
The House of Israel...from egypt right? Seriously, Free Grace did a great job of showing you that it isnt not anything related to egypt in post 3327
Where does the verse say that the false teachers are Gentiles?
I dont understand why that is important. The important thing that you seem to be missing is that whoever they are, they appear to have been bought by the Lord at one point in time. As post 3327 indicates. This is referring to a future event, not an event that happened in the OT, nothing related to egypt, egypt isn't even mentioned.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 5:00:50 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
People in the future could be of the house of Israel.
The House of Israel...from egypt right? Seriously, Free Grace did a great job of showing you that it isnt not anything related to egypt in post 3327
Where does the verse say that the false teachers are Gentiles?
I dont understand why that is important. The important thing that you seem to be missing is that whoever they are, they appear to have been bought by the Lord at one point in time. As post 3327 indicates. This is referring to a future event, not an event that happened in the OT, nothing related to egypt, egypt isn't even mentioned.
It only matters because I want to understand the text. Are believers preaching false doctrine? Are Israelites in the church preaching false doctrine? Are true redeemed-with-the-blood Christians denying Christ? If the latter is true, does it mean that they will lose their salvation, or are they backsliders who will eventually repent and return to the Lord?
We don't have to be talking about the Old Testament. We have to identify the people who denied the Lord in the future. If they are Israelites, they were bought from slavery in Egypt. They could have also been bought with the blood of the Lamb, but that is not a given.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 6:28:42 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
why would u think this would be in any way referencing Egypt given the context? Just look at the verse.
Because I don't know who these false teachers are.
its obvious it is people in the future.
People in the future could be of the house of Israel.
The House of Israel...from egypt right? Seriously, Free Grace did a great job of showing you that it isnt not anything related to egypt in post 3327
Where does the verse say that the false teachers are Gentiles?
I dont understand why that is important. The important thing that you seem to be missing is that whoever they are, they appear to have been bought by the Lord at one point in time. As post 3327 indicates. This is referring to a future event, not an event that happened in the OT, nothing related to egypt, egypt isn't even mentioned.
It only matters because I want to understand the text. Are believers preaching false doctrine? Are Israelites in the church preaching false doctrine? Are true redeemed-with-the-blood Christians denying Christ? If the latter is true, does it mean that they will lose their salvation, or are they backsliders who will eventually repent and return to the Lord?
We don't have to be talking about the Old Testament. We have to identify the people who denied the Lord in the future. If they are Israelites, they were bought from slavery in Egypt. They could have also been bought with the blood of the Lamb, but that is not a given.
thanks for your reply ephesian, but what makes you think isrialites who were bought out of slavery in egypt were still alive when Paul wrote this gospel to the people at Ephesus? The verse tells you who was bought, but apparently at that time they were not teaching false doctrine, so one more time, who was bought, it has to be the people in the verse, who who was it?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 5:42:34 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
thanks for your reply ephesian, but what makes you think isrialites who were bought out of slavery in egypt were still alive when Paul wrote this gospel to the people at Ephesus?
They weren't still alive, but their descendants are here today.
Psalm 106
21They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
When did the Exodus take place and when were the following verses written?
Judges 10
11And the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Did not I deliver you from the Egyptians, and from the Amorites, from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines?
1 Samuel 10
17And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh;
18And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you:
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2008 6:05:43 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
thanks for your reply ephesian, but what makes you think isrialites who were bought out of slavery in egypt were still alive when Paul wrote this gospel to the people at Ephesus?
They weren't still alive, but their descendants are here today.
Psalm 106
21They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
When did the Exodus take place and when were the following verses written?
Judges 10
11And the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Did not I deliver you from the Egyptians, and from the Amorites, from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines?
1 Samuel 10
17And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh;
18And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you:
Ephesians, what does any of this have to do at all with the verse at question?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/20/2008 5:26:48 AM
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Tychicus
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Well, it looks like this topic has lain dormant for over a month. So, I'd like to make an observation and raise a question.
The observation is that "Eternal Security" is a very strange doctrine. As far as I know it is not held to by any religion except a certain segment of Protestant Evangelicalism. It seems quite counter-intuitive -- the idea that your salvation is not in any way based on your current faith or actions, but is entirely based on the faith experience that you had at one time in the past, even if your current belief and practice are contrary.
In particular this doctrine is not held by Jews, nor is there any evidence that it was commonly believed by Jews (or anyone else) of the first century. In other words, the early readers of the New Testament would not have been familiar with such a doctrine.
So, the question is, if God wanted us to believe this doctrine, wouldn't it be explicity taught somewhere in the Bible? Yet I am not aware of any such teaching. I am familiar with most of the "proof texts" that come up, but every one I've seen is just an isolated text, not a specific teaching in the context of the passage.
As an example of a specific teaching on a related topic, look at 1 Corinthians chapters 8-10, which to a great extent deals with how Christians should relate to the idolatrous customs of the city. In particular, 1 Cor 10:1-13 gives a warning to believers of the consequences of giving in to idolatry. This is a clear and straightforward teaching, including the well-known passage "let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall" (10:12).
My point here is not to debate whether this passage proves or disproves "eternal security", but to give an example of an extended passage with a clear and direct teaching. I see no reason to think Paul was trying to prove or disprove the doctrine of eternal security, since he probably never heard of it. He was simply warning the people against falling into idolatry. And in this passage (13 verses, plus the extended context) we can read how he said it, as he was led by the Holy Spirit.
So, to repeat the question, if God wanted his people to believe in "eternal security" would he not have clearly taught it somewhere, in a clearly worded passage? And if so, where is such a passage? And if there is no such passage, on what grounds ought we to believe such a strange doctrine?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/21/2008 5:36:44 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
So, to repeat the question, if God wanted his people to believe in "eternal security" would he not have clearly taught it somewhere, in a clearly worded passage? And if so, where is such a passage? And if there is no such passage, on what grounds ought we to believe such a strange doctrine? Starting with your last remarks first, why should God have a "clearly worded passage" pertaining to perseverance of the saints? He doesn't for many other biblical doctrines. Even so, God does have many passages which teach eternal security.
quote:
It seems quite counter-intuitive -- the idea that your salvation is not in any way based on your current faith or actions, but is entirely based on the faith experience that you had at one time in the past, even if your current belief and practice are contrary. No wonder you think eternal security is, as you say, "a very strange doctrine". Your definition of it certainly is very strange. As for as I know, there is only one Christian segment that teaches eternal security in the manner you describe - the Free Grace Movement. Although, I think most Arminians believe that one can be saved, lost, and then resaved.
Reformed churches know nothing of your definition; and, in fact, believe in what is called "perseverance of the saints". In 2Cor 5:17, we are told "if" we have become saved we are a new creation - the old things have passed away. So, obviously our "current actions" will be those that glorify God and not based simply upon some "faith experience" of the past.
In 1Cor 6:9-11, we see that believers once engaged in those enumerated sins; but, now no longer do - "such were some of you". A true Christian cannot sin without a struggle with the ensuing guilt and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
A true believer's relationship with God can never be broken. We become His children when He "adopted" us; and, God will never unadopt.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 2:54:53 AM
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Tychicus
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kelman,
Thanks for pointing out the differences between the Reformed and Free Grace versions of "eternal security". I put out a simple definition for the sake of brevity, not wanting to get intertwined into a discussion of Calvinism and Perseverance. I think that belongs in another thread.
To clarify I'll give an expanded version of "eternal security":
quote:
It seems quite counter-intuitive -- the idea that your salvation is not in any way based on your current faith or actions, but is entirely based on the faith experience that you had at one time in the past, even if your current belief and practice are contrary. However some people include the qualification that if your current belief and practice are contrary it means you weren't really saved in the first place. That version of Eternal Security is sometimes called Perseverace of the Saints.
Whereas the simple version of Eternal Security is counter-intuitive because it sounds "wrong", the Perseverance version is counter-intuitive because it sounds complicated. In either case it is not held by any religion except for a segment of Protestant Evangelicalism and there is no evidence it was held by Jews or anyone else of the first century.
So, on to your first point:
quote:
Starting with your last remarks first, why should God have a "clearly worded passage" pertaining to perseverance of the saints? He doesn't for many other biblical doctrines. Even so, God does have many passages which teach eternal security.
I am not sure here if you are admitting that there are no "clearly worded passages" on the topic, but why don't you give your best one, whether it is "clearly worded" or "not so clearly worded" -- just the most clear one you can come up with, hopefully more than just one or two verses. I am really curious as to what you will come up with, and would very much appreciate a thoughtful answer.
quote:
No wonder you think eternal security is, as you say, "a very strange doctrine". Your definition of it certainly is very strange. As for as I know, there is only one Christian segment that teaches eternal security in the manner you describe - the Free Grace Movement.
. . .
Reformed churches know nothing of your definition; and, in fact, believe in what is called "perseverance of the saints".
There are lots of churches which are neither "Free Grace" nor "Reformed", and I suspect lots of people who haven't thought through the difference between these two views of Eternal Security. But as I noted above, both views are "strange" in their own way. If the word "strange" has negative connotations you can substitute "unusual". The main point here is that God wouldn't just expect his 1st century believers to pick up such an unusual and unfamiliar idea out of the air; if He really wanted them to believe this doctrine he would have provided a clear and direct teaching.
quote:
A true believer's relationship with God can never be broken. We become His children when He "adopted" us; and, God will never unadopt.
I do not think we can establish the doctrine of eternal security based on the use of the English word "adopt", and a blanket assertion that an adoption cannot be undone (at least an adoption by God). Of course an adoption can be undone; and in any case it is a figure of speech. Adam was the son of God (e.g. Luke 3:38); the Scripture also speaks of Israel as God's "firstborn son" (Ex 4:22), and by extension all of us are "sons". That doesn't mean that we can't fall into eternal judgment, just because at some level we are referred to as "sons".
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 11:49:59 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5116
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If there is nothing you can do to loose your Salvation, then why has the Bible so clearly laid out how we are to live our lives?
Now, I'm not saying that if you sin you're off to hell. What I'm wondering about is a person who is willfully leading a sinful life continuously.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 2:45:52 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5705
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
kelman,
quote:
A true believer's relationship with God can never be broken. We become His children when He "adopted" us; and, God will never unadopt.
I do not think we can establish the doctrine of eternal security based on the use of the English word "adopt", and a blanket assertion that an adoption cannot be undone (at least an adoption by God). Of course an adoption can be undone; and in any case it is a figure of speech. Adam was the son of God (e.g. Luke 3:38); the Scripture also speaks of Israel as God's "firstborn son" (Ex 4:22), and by extension all of us are "sons". That doesn't mean t | | | |
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