Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 2:25:58 PM)

Once saved, always saved?

Jesus said "No one can snatch them out of My hand" Pauls said " For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What does Jesus mean when He says "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." What does Paul mean when he says "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith ."

Discuss these and other issues surrounding the idea of eternal security.

[Special thanks to PS103 for proposing this One Stop Thread]



PuritanLady -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 3:01:56 PM)

I think it better helps to understand OSAS if a person understands that the covenant of grace is between God the Father and the Son...not between us and the Father.

"The conditions of the covenant between the Father and the Son are the principal required in the first covenant--perfect obedience--and the penalty of Adam's disobedience to be paid in Christ. Thus, the second Adam entered into covenant with God on behalf of His elect; He stood where the first Adam stood but succeeded where the first Adam failed. Therefore the covenant for Christ's seed is absolute and not conditional, because the efficacy of the covenant rests in Christ's role, which He fulfilled." Thomas Boston

Thus, to insist that anything else brings us or keeps us negates or lessens the work of Christ done for us on the cross.



Justifiedbyfaith -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 3:48:49 PM)

Hang in there. Finish the race. After we are saved we then play a part in this too.

"For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end..."

Hebrews 3:14

See Also: John 15 (The Vine and The Branches)



milesjesu -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 4:27:42 PM)

HarmonMSP,

I am home early from work. I feel better but still really tired. I will make a quick post before taking a nap. Your prayers are appreciated.

quote:

I meant to merely claim that:

1. Christ's death occured once
2. Christ's death (which occured once) is sufficient for all sin, for all time

Fair enough. Glad to see we can agree there, although, I don't think that would have been hard to do.


I am glad we can agree on something! I find that often times, we are not too terribly far apart, after an in-depth discussion.

quote:

*Is Christ's blood applied over time? How so?


This could be a very complex question considering that our Triune God exists outside of time. However, I don't think that is what you are asking. If so, my answer is not applicable. I would also understand the term "Christ's blood" to mean Christ's grace, not the one time sacrafice. We already agreed that his sacrifice was a one time event. Jesus died on the cross so that our sins might be forgiven and that we might enter into heaven and spend eternity with God. I think you would agree that Christ's grace is applied at least twice: when we are "saved" and when we are glorified. This would indicate two separate instances. This would seem to make sense because if ALL of Christ's grace was immediately applied to us in one installment we would not be conversing at Crosswalk...we would be in heaven. We would be fully united with Him.

Another way at looking at the issue is to ask how Christ's grace is applied to someone 200 years from now? Or better yet, if it was applied over 2000 years ago, before the person was born? I think this is more along the lines of what you are asking.

quote:

*Is it applied based on the initial (and thus continuing) belief in His ability to save from sin, or is it applied based on belief and then confession of sin? In other words, though I understand that many of my Methodist brethren may think confession of every sin necessary to be forgiven, I am wondering if there is room in Catholic doctrine to account for sin committed unawares, as the case may be.


This can also be complex, depending upon your definition of belief. Do I believe that Jesus has the ability to save from sin? Certainly. Do the demons? Certainly. There has to be a distinction. Thomas summed up those components of faith and belief in his "My Lord and My God." The demons agree to the "My God." They fail however, to submit and say, "My Lord." Provided we have both components, Christ's grace is applied through faith. If our faith falters or becomes "shipwrecked" we may have a problem.

As for sin AFTER recieving our initial grace, it must be repented. Sin separates us from God. We have the free will to choose between right and wrong. God also gives us the grace to choose and act in the right, if we are open. When we are not, and choose to sin, we need to repent and ask for forgiveness. Sorry Mike, I am getting too tired to really finish. I hope this didnt' ramble.

quote:

Just from my vantage point, I could not go on living if I had no assurance that any of my sins would be covered, since I am somewhat confident of my ability to sin unknowingly.


We can have assurance, but I think the difficulty arises when we claim infallible certainty of whether or not we will go to heaven. It is God's call, not ours. Absent a private revelation from God, we can never infallibly know and may be guilty of presumption.

As for naming each individual sin, it certainly is better. If you have unknown sin, you certainly cannot name it. You do not know what you do not know! You will need to repent for having offended God in what you have done and in what you have failed to do. However, there is a distinction between knowingly committing a sin and unknowingly comitting a sin.

You can ask me for more specifics, I am too tired to go on. I owe you an answer to your question, but it will have to be later.

Peace,

MilesJesu



gracewalk -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 7:36:24 PM)

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. ¶ Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know {Him} {in this way} no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I am amazed at the various denominational teachings that for practical purposes we can be in and out of being a new creature.. as if the butterfly can return to the caterpillar. And many times in ones life..

Col 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. ¶ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the {Father's} good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven. ¶ And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, {engaged} in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--

As I read this it's a done deal.. past tense.. in Christ? this is what has been done for you..

John 5:24 ¶ "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I simply can not accept this is a swinging door.....

John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

These says one has.. does not get.. but posesses now..

1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

If you have the life of Christ it's eternal.. if one wishes to make the plain complex feel free to do so.. but toss out the gospel og John where the Lord repeats this over and over and over again.

later



Justifiedbyfaith -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 7:45:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin

[Special thanks to PS103 for proposing this One Stop Thread]



Thanks PS103[:D][sm=wave.gif]



J.Scott -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 8:15:22 PM)

My first post wow, what a rush...
I have never been part of a forum before so please extend a little grace.


I have always pondered how it is that one can postulate the loss of his or her salvation as though they did something to cause it in the first. Please allow me to say that to speak to this issue is to put the cart before the horse. I think we must start with what our belief is in reference to how we gained our salvation. Once we have established that, we can then move on to how or if we can deprive ourselves of that salvation. We should perhaps consider if we are asking the wrong question.

I believe the original question was what can you do to lose your salvation? And the questioner desired an answer from someone who believed that you could indeed lose your salvation. There are none too few denominations who follow this set of doctrines, will one of you out there please speak to this issue?

Thank you.
God keep you all.



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 8:47:21 PM)

J Scott,

quote:

I believe the original question was what can you do to lose your salvation? And the questioner desired an answer from someone who believed that you could indeed lose your salvation. There are none too few denominations who follow this set of doctrines, will one of you out there please speak to this issue?


Much earlier in the thread that orginated this "one stop" this was already addressed. Speaking only for myself, but I believe I can speak for many, if not all, of those who oppose OSAS, there is not opposing view to this.
First it is based on a false premise to begin with. Thus if one does believe in OSAS, it does not mean that there will be an opposing view, that one can in fact lose their salvation.

The issue is, no one has it definitively in this life. We possess it but do not recieve it fully until the end. We will inherit the promise of that eternal life IF we are faithful to the end. It is all about believing, not believed. If you are speaking of having believed, then you are no longer being saved, you have lost faith, you will not inherit the promise. Unless one repents before it is to late. As long as one draws breath, it is still possible to believe again.
Thus, the short answer to your question. No one believes one can lose their salvation.
The Biblical answer is that we as believers can and do lose faith, lose our initial belief, we can and do become unbelievers.



nowimfound -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 9:08:36 PM)

The only way that I could be unsaved is if God turned back the hands of time and Jesus never became man, never died on the cross, and never rose again. The very basis of our eternal security is the finished work of Christ. It has nothing to do with our works or actions or obedience or lack thereof. Works didn't save before the cross and they don't save after the cross. Salvation is an eternally secure free gift. It is however a gift that can also be freely rejected. It can't be taken away, but it can be given away.

Grace and Peace,

NIF



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 9:40:53 PM)

gracewalk,

quote:

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. ¶ Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know {Him} {in this way} no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


What amazes me is that one cannot see the comparisons being made in all of these verses.
vs Christ died for all because all died. Why? So that those who live might no longer live for themselves, (which is what man was doing under the curse of Adam) All live, because He died and rose for ALL. All have life so that man might be able to live for Him who died and rose on their behalf. We, mankind are no longer known in the flesh. We no longer are in bondage to death and sin because Christ overcame death and sin for ALL. OR HE SAVED ALL.
Then it does say, THOSE THAT ARE IN CHRIST have become a new creature. Now, all of these things are from God who reconciled us (mankind) All who died, all for whom Christ arose, to Himself. Then to emphasize this very univeral work, God was reconciling the WORLD to Himself. Not counting our trespasses against us. (He died for sinners, the ungodly). Is anyone excluded in this saving work?
If you do want to insist that the above texts speaks only of believers, then I would say that you are a universalist you believe that Christ not only saved mankind from the fall, but also universally saved each and every soul unilaterally.

Col 1:13 but the whole section from 1-20 is dealing primarily with Christ universal redemptive work. He is saving, redeeming, reconciling the world. The very universe needed life, transformation. If God did in deed transform the world then I would presume that it also included every single human being. How can one reconcile the world, and leave out a goodly portion of humanity.

quote:

As I read this it's a done deal.. past tense.. in Christ? this is what has been done for you..
You have gotten that part right. But this does not apply to man's salvation of the soul. It has all to do with Christ's work on the Cross saving mankind from the fall, in order that we might be able to work with God, be believers, to the salvation of our souls.

quote:

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
No question about that. Only those that believe. Thus if we lose faith, become unbelievers, we cannot be saved as we do not believe.

quote:

John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
It is amazing that you even use this text. First, not many protestants if any actually believe what it says in the first place. Secondly, only believers, if they eat and drink unworthily, can eat and drink to their condemnation. I don't see any OSAS in using this verse. Unless, you believe that unbelievers who eat and drink unworthily, are eating and drinking to their condemnation.

quote:

1 John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son
Ah, yes he has. But we need to stay IN Christ in order to inherit the full promise here. If we do not abide, do not finish the course, failed to endure to the end, then the outcome is not what it states here.

quote:

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
this is another of those contrasting verses. Paul is speaking to believers, but he is making a double statement. the first part is regarding all of humanity who are reconciled by His death. (given life) then he says even with more emphasis, how much more have been reconciled, we (believers) shall be saved by His life. Unless you believe that beleivers are saved twice this follows in his whole arguement in this chapter which is clearly stated in vs 18-19. the gift came to all men resulting in justification of life.

quote:

If you have the life of Christ it's eternal.. if one wishes to make the plain complex feel free to do so.. but toss out the gospel og John where the Lord repeats this over and over and over again.
You are phrasing this wrong. the Bible does not say what you are saying and meaning it what you think it does. All men have the life of Christ. But only some live IN Christ.
Christ died for all so that some may live in His life.

John does have a lot of promises, but you have only taken some of them. How about these sure promises:

John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.". A Christian can wind up no longer committted unto Christ. For some have already turned aside after Satan - 1 Tim. 5:15. This text is one of the most often used to support OSAS, and it sinks it from the get-go.

John 14:16 - Jesus said, "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever." The word "may" is NOT will. There is the possibility of it not happening. Plus when Jesus started with "and I will" means there is a condition for us found in the previous verse. "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15). So if we keep His commandments, then He will pray for us that the Holy Spirit may abide in us forever. All the exhortations in Scripture for us to live right are not there for nothing. If we are OSAS, then there is no need for most of God's word. Scripture shows we can stop doing His commandments, and we can grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. That's forcing Him out.

John 15:1,2 - Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away..." Obviously, if we are to believe in OSAS, then unbelievers are IN Christ as well as beleivers. Because it says here that every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away. They are bundled and burned. I can say that, because believers cannot ever not bear fruit and be cut off.

John 15:6 - Jesus said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered (Note: in order to be cast out, one must first be in Christ); and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Why do you exclude the other side of the coin? Both are very sure promises of God. It is all, IF we abide, IF we believe, or that we can disbelieve, that we can not abide. Both are real.
You're right though, gracewalk, lets keep it simply, true and we all can stick with John. He does have the Gospel message.



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 9:53:20 PM)

nowimfound,

quote:

The only way that I could be unsaved is if God turned back the hands of time and Jesus never became man, never died on the cross, and never rose again. The very basis of our eternal security is the finished work of Christ. It has nothing to do with our works or actions or obedience or lack thereof. Works didn't save before the cross and they don't save after the cross. Salvation is an eternally secure free gift. It is however a gift that can also be freely rejected. It can't be taken away, but it can be given away.

the part to which you are referring I can wholly agree with you. The Work of Christ is past tense, it is completed, man has nothing to do with it, cannot change it, cannot alter it, cannot even reject it.

However, the single phrase you make in the middle is not addressing the context. "
quote:

The very basis of our eternal security is the finished work of Christ.
Eternal security argument is not based on the finished work of Christ but is based on the response of man to Christ's work. Since it is based on man, it can change.
Your next phrase makes this clear.

quote:

It is however a gift that can also be freely rejected. It can't be taken away, but it can be given away.
The above statements you made about man not having to do anything etc, is referrencing the Gift itself. However, the rejecting and or giving it away is respective of man's response to the Gift. It is not the Gift itself. By the way, it cannot be taken away either. God's Gifts are without repentance, are irrevocable.
The response of man to that Gift has everything to do with the saving of each of our souls. That is a work. It is all work. It is accomplished through our faith by God working in and through us. But we can turn aside from God and return to the rule of Satan.



nowimfound -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 10:30:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cassian

nowimfound,

the part to which you are referring I can wholly agree with you. The Work of Christ is past tense, it is completed, man has nothing to do with it, cannot change it, cannot alter it, cannot even reject it.

Good, I'm glad we agree on this.
quote:


However, the single phrase you make in the middle is not addressing the context. "
quote:

The very basis of our eternal security is the finished work of Christ.
Eternal security argument is not based on the finished work of Christ but is based on the response of man to Christ's work. Since it is based on man, it can change.
Your next phrase makes this clear.

Who gets to decide what is meant by the phrase eternal security? You? As far as I am concerned, my eternal security is the fullfillment of all of God's promises in Christ. It is an objective reality.

quote:


quote:

It is however a gift that can also be freely rejected. It can't be taken away, but it can be given away.
The above statements you made about man not having to do anything etc, is referrencing the Gift itself. However, the rejecting and or giving it away is respective of man's response to the Gift. It is not the Gift itself.

Man's response to the Gift does not change the objective fact of the gift.
quote:


By the way, it cannot be taken away either. God's Gifts are without repentance, are irrevocable.

I think I said exactly that. IT CANNOT BE TAKEN AWAY.
quote:


The response of man to that Gift has everything to do with the saving of each of our souls. That is a work. It is all work.

Faith comes by hearing not reasoning. The revelation that we are reconciled to God through Christ is nothing we can claim as our own. This also is a gift of God entirely foreign to human reasoning. Foolishness to the Gentile. It is by the Holy Spirit that we cry Abba Father. Our response is not a work it is a gift.

quote:



It is accomplished through our faith by God working in and through us. But we can turn aside from God and return to the rule of Satan.

I agree as long as the faith you are talking about is acknowledge as God's gift to us.

Grace and Peace,

NIF



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/1/2006 11:24:53 PM)

Once you have accepted Christ as your savior, the living Christ has come to dwell within you forever as a child of God. You can have assurance of salvation and know that God will never leave you.

"..God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."" Hebrews 13:5

"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:11-13

What does the Bible say you must have in order to have eternal life?
Do you know for sure that you have the Son?
If you have the Son, what else do you have?
Can you have one without the other?
What does "eternal" mean?
Could you ever lose something that is eternal?

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

God gave eternal life to all those who believe. God says believers shall never perish. God says no one can snatch believers out of His hand. Therefore, if I, a believer, can lose what God gave me I am making God out to be a liar by saying that I can snatch myself out of His Hands.

"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39

Again, I find it difficult to believe that neither death, life, angels, demons, the present, the future, any powers, heights, depths or anything else in all creation can separate me from the love of God, but somehow I can.

I, for one, am going to take God at His Word and believe that I am secure in His Hands for all eternity. Salvation is eternal and we all have it whether we all believe it or not. I don't think it is faith to live my earthly life with my fingers crossed hoping that I have done enough to enter into Heaven. As the scripture says, I have the Son, so I have eternal life.

God Bless



cassian -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 1:12:15 AM)

GraceBro,

quote:

"..God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."" Hebrews 13:5

This is a very solume promise of God to man. The point is that we are in a relationship that is mutually entered into. We both have an obligation to keep the conditions. From God's side we have these great assurances so that we do not need to fear God will either leave us, will recall the Gift or in any way be fickle.
But I do not see any assurance here on the part of man who is also an equal party in this relationship. I keep assuming that you believe it is a relationship, not a forced arrangement.
But let's look at the one verse which OSAS pulls out of context to make its point.

Heb 13:5 text. In Vs 4 it says that God will judge. Will judge if you become fornicators, adulterers etc. What it means is that if one remains content, that is being not in sin. Also look at the next verse, 13:6 is quoted above, it applies to this "never leave you" quote with the word so. So it is connected. "The LORD is my helper", not the covetousness (loving money). So if you keep obeying God and listening to His warnings, then He won't leave you, but if you start the practice of sin, or reject Him, or lose faith, or disbelieve, then He will leave you.

Then let's look at the quote which is a phrase from the OT.
Knowing where it comes from has some important points to know. The Lord spoke to Joshua, "I will not leave you nor forsake you" (Joshua 1:5). Before that, "He will not leave you nor forsake you" is what Moses told the people and then Moses told it to Joshua (Deut. 31:6,8). The reason Moses said this is because he just told the people that the Lord told him that he would not cross over the Jordan. Moses was giving them assurance of their crossing without him. It doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want (like being a fornicator, adulterer, or coveter), and God will never leave us.
In fact, after this word was given through Moses to the people, the Lord said this in Deut. 31:16,17 - "Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured." We see that God said that He would forsake them because of their sin. So people should not be preaching that God will never leave you nor forsake you no matter what you do, because we just saw the truth of God saying otherwise. True, it's in Hebrews 13:5, but if you take it out of context by not mentioning the verse before and after it.
So, is context important. Do we have a license to pluck texts out of the Bible in support of presuppositions and attempt to make them seem correct by misusing scripture?

quote:

"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:11-13
It clearly says one WHO HAS THE SON, and then WHO BELIEVE. What must also be stated as it is throughout the NT, that a believer can become an unbeliever. Once one believes does not guarantee anything. We can and do lose faith, we then are no longer IN the Son. If you can show that a believer remains a believer guaranteed even though they disbelieve, become disobedient, live unrighteously, become unfaithful, then you can say what you want it to say.

quote:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

God gave eternal life to all those who believe. God says believers shall never perish. God says no one can snatch believers out of His hand. Therefore, if I, a believer, can lose what God gave me I am making God out to be a liar by saying that I can snatch myself out of His Hands.
The condition(s) is stated right within this text. "God gave eternal life to all those who believe." Very true and a guaranteed promise. But we already know that believers don't stay believers. To say that believers always have eternal life is very accurate. But that does not say that once a believer always a believer, as the Bible has more texts speaking about man's side of the relationship than it does about God's promises from His side of the relationship.

quote:

"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:37-39
This is really an amazing verse. It includes even those that don't believe. It includes all sinners since Christ loved us even before we believed. He loved mankind so much that He was willing to die for us even when we were yet sinners. Christ loves the unbeliever so much that He desires all be saved and works constantly to quicken mens hearts to repentance.
Why would you doubt that God would even think of forsaking any of His creatures. Especially that He died for every single one.
However, man's side of the equation does not have such unconditional love. We permit a lot of things to get in the way of perfect love.

quote:

Again, I find it difficult to believe that neither death, life, angels, demons, the present, the future, any powers, heights, depths or anything else in all creation can separate me from the love of God, but somehow I can.
Yes, because He created you with an independent will from His. He created you to be free. He was not willing to have a creature that could be manipulated and forced to do His will. What kind of free, willing response would that engender?

quote:

I, for one, am going to take God at His Word and believe that I am secure in His Hands for all eternity. Salvation is eternal and we all have it whether we all believe it or not.
this is very true. Even those in Hell will still be in His hand. Do you realize that. We never cease to be creatures, whether we are in heaven or hell. God is life. We live and move and have our being in and by Him.
We all have eternity, but the question is will you have it with Christ or apart from Him.

quote:

As the scripture says, I have the Son, so I have eternal life.
That is great. But the key is to maintain that faith. Without faith, you do not have the Son. If you depart from Him, you no longer have the Son. He will not force you or hold you against your will. He will permit you and any man to have the desires of his heart.



PuritanLady -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 9:15:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justifiedbyfaith

Hang in there. Finish the race. After we are saved we then play a part in this too.

"For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end..."

Hebrews 3:14

See Also: John 15 (The Vine and The Branches)


Yes...but we do not perservere alone...HE carries us to the end.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

On the Vine issue...are there not those in the church that are spiritually dead (ie, never saved to begin with)? They have deceived themselves into thinking they are saved because they are "part of" the church/vine...but as they are dead, they will be cut off/revealed.



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 10:29:44 AM)

But the branches in the parable were not dead...they did not whither until cut off and cast away from the branch. What they were not doing is bringing forth good fruit which is why they were cut off.

So it these branches were a living part of the Vine why didn't the Vine "persevere" in them and force them to bear good fruit so they wouldn't be cut off and cast away?



PuritanLady -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 10:45:37 AM)

Okay, if they didn't produce fruit, then why not? because they did not have the Spirit...the Spirit ALWAYS produces fruit. Thus they were not saved to begin with. They were only visibly part of the vine...not spritually.



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 11:08:29 AM)

Amen Puritan Lady.



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 11:15:35 AM)

But what about the branch that initally bears fruit...but some time later ceases and is cut off and cast away...was that one never a partaker of the Spirit?



harmonmsp -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 12:13:26 PM)

Miles,

I hope you're feeling better; I totally understand if it affects your response. You've got nothing to 'prove' to me, just share your side of it. I apologize for not responding any sooner, since this is such a good conversation. I am busy at school and I don't think I'll have much time to respond this weekend, but will give it my best shot!

quote:

ORIGINAL: milesjesu
I am glad we can agree on something! I find that often times, we are not too terribly far apart, after an in-depth discussion.


True enough. I think you'll find this in the rest of my response as well.

quote:

I would also understand the term "Christ's blood" to mean Christ's grace, not the one time sacrafice ...


Not a problem; I think we will have to discuss it according to certain distinctions that I make, though, since it could get confusing otherwise.

In other words, I don't see them necessarily as one and the same, but rather interdependent. Because Christ was filled with grace, he shed his blood, and because he shed his blood, his grace abounds to us throughout life in one way or another, but hopefully with the result that we are saved to be with him throughout our lives. Is that understandable? So, I think we need to distinguish between his actual sacrifice and the different outworkings of grace that he offers.

Where my interjection came from was this: I believe that Christ's death on the cross provided forgiveness for my sins, both in time and eternally. Once Christ's forgiveness was given to me, in the 'eternal' sense, all my sins were forgiven and there's no need to 're-apply' that forgiveness (Hebrews 10:1-3); in the 'temporal' sense, I have to live my life in obedience to Christ as best as possible. But the 'eternal' aspect should not be supplanted at the over-emphasis upon the 'temporal' sense.

quote:

Another way at looking at the issue is to ask how Christ's grace is applied to someone 200 years from now? Or better yet, if it was applied over 2000 years ago, before the person was born?


In the eternal sense, it doesn't matter whether they are born 200 years from now or 200 years before Christ's death. In the temporal sense, obviously, the forgiveness is not yet obtained until obedience is revealed through acknowledgment of said sacrifice, an acknowledgment that comes as grace from Christ (note again here the reason why I made a distinction between Christ's death and the different manifestations of the grace of God, and how 'eternal' and 'temporal' aspects are necessary for this view).
quote:


They fail however, to submit and say, "My Lord." Provided we have both components, Christ's grace is applied through faith. If our faith falters or becomes "shipwrecked" we may have a problem.


Agreed, I think.

quote:

As for sin AFTER recieving our initial grace, it must be repented.


Agreed.

quote:

Sin separates us from God.


Unfortunately not agreed, in the sense that I believe you have to make a distinction between a person who has already accepted that Christ died for them and a person who has not. I believe, again, that once that sacrifice is applied, it offers a kind of 'stay of grace', whereby the person is seen by God through Christ and Christ offers time to repent or gives a warning of judgment before he exercises the Father's discipline in order to correct us. Otherwise, you have someone who accepted Christ and then sinning five seconds before death (perhaps unknowingly) ending up with the same fate as someone who lived a rampant life of sin and never turned to Christ.

quote:

We can have assurance, but I think the difficulty arises when we claim infallible certainty of whether or not we will go to heaven. It is God's call, not ours. Absent a private revelation from God, we can never infallibly know and may be guilty of presumption.


Agreed. However, I want to make sure we allow for Christ's words to prove true: "By their fruits you shall know them." I think its possible to determine whether or not we are saved by looking at how Christ has been working in us. I seem to see that Paul and Peter were clear on that with their exhortations to 'examine yourselves', no?

Hope to hear from your well self soon,
Mike



PuritanLady -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 12:21:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim

But what about the branch that initally bears fruit...but some time later ceases and is cut off and cast away...was that one never a partaker of the Spirit?


AH! But that is not what the scripture says. It does not read a branch the QUITS bearing fruit...rather a branch that does NOT bear fruit.

As far as bearing fruit in a CHRISTIAN's life...who does not go through a "dry" time? Are you always in an active role...or does God sometimes have you go through a period of rest as a field. And is bearing fruit always an obvious thing. Sometimes we are growing and the bearing of fruit is internal changes of character and attitude...those do eventually spill outward (are seen outward). What exactly are you considering the "fruit"? The scriptures state that the fruit of the Holy Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, and Temperance. Fruit has to grow, it doesn't just "appear". It may take time for it to be obvious.

Now a person can "bear fruit" or fool others, but only for a time...those are not believers at all but merely imitators. I believe the scriptures deal with these ppl as false teachers.



rileykins -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 12:23:49 PM)

What did Jesus mean when he says..”All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands frim to the end will be saved?”
To answer that and find out what the Lord means by it ask yourself what the context of the verse is? What it is that they will be saved from? Stand firm to the end of what?

Here are some clues:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

rileykins

I'll get back to you on Paul's quote a little later.



Lurker -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 1:05:13 PM)

I'm not sure if this passsage has come up, but how does the idea of Once Saved, Always Saved answer the Lord who tells Ezekiel,
quote:


"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."

-ezekiel 18:20-24



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 1:49:50 PM)

Okay, I have some questions:

1. If a believer can lose their salvation what are the works or acts required to maintain it?

2. How is a believer to know that they are meeting these requirements?

YBIC



PuritanLady -> RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread (3/2/2006 2:24:25 PM)

The point is we are UNABLE to keep the Covenant of Works. Only Christ was able to do that. The First Adam proved this. Our only hope is in the Covenant of Grace which has already been fulfilled.

Ezekial is dealing with person's that were attempting to live under the Covenant of Works before Christ's work on the Cross.



If Christ's work on the cross was not enough to both save and keep us, then what was the point. To insist that WE, in and of ourselves, can DO anything is to negate Christ's power and what Grace actually IS.



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