You’re right, @PeterC, true compassion reflects God’s heart. But when compassion is twisted to excuse sin or silence truth, it ceases to be biblical. Real love speaks truth, even when it’s costly (Ephesians 4:15).
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And you better be paying attention to what you just said.
Matthew 12 is not talking about anything I said. Jesus Himself taught that blasphemy against the Spirit is to say that what He does is the work of Satan ~Matthew 12:31 through 32. I did not say that, but it does look like you are.
I do not give any credence to personal warnings. Scripture alone is the authority. The Word instructs us to “reprove, rebuke and exhort” ~2 Timothy 4: 2 and to “expose the unfruitful works of darkness” ~Ephesians 5:11. Scriptural correction is obedience, not blasphemy.
If you think I have written anything contrary to the Word, then please show it from the Word. That is my standard. But I know you only like the parts of the bible you want to.
You know the spirit by the fruit. Indeed
You are absolutely correct. You know the spirit by the fruit. Scripture says that very plainly. When someone rejects what God has revealed about Himself and constructs a version of God that fits their own comfort, that is not the Spirit of truth. The Holy Spirit brings people into the Word God actually spoke, not into ideas that contradict it ~John 16:13.
When a person remolds God into someone more palatable, that is the fruit of the flesh, not the fruit of the Spirit. The Bible also warns that people will make “gods” that cannot save ~Isaiah 45:20 and that many will follow a Christ of their own imagination instead of the One revealed in Scripture ~2 Corinthians 11:4. The real test is always the same. Does what they believe line up with the Word God breathed out? If not, the fruit betrays the source.
So yes, the fruit tells us. The Spirit leads to obedience to the truth, not a god we invent.
Indeed, and what the flesh desires is vengence. Which is why BarJesus was chosen over Christ Jesus. The flesh desires to murder our enemies and to murder all those who stand in our way. It sets our own ego up above others, to satisfy our own hunger to use others as a punching bag or an object of our wrath or sexual fulfillment. Rather than considering them another human being worthy of respect and dignity despite what makes them different from ourselves.
While the Holy Spirit sets us up to hold people in Grace, to Forgive them when they fail, and to be mindful of their conscience which is different from our own, as Paul spoke of those bound by dietary laws vs those who were not. But there is also this concern of those who consume all the offerings at the love feasts while leaving nothing for others. Like true piggies who put themselves first, hogging all the LOVE, leaving only scraps for the poor, the late, and the less fortunate.
There is something said about those who were shown great Mercy and Care who then denied others Mercy and Care. And of those who did nothing with the blessings, talants, they had been given except horde them because they just knew how fierce the Lord could be. Indeed.
Reminds me of this @Tillman
Luke 18:10–14 (Berean Bible)
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying these things to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of men, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’ But the tax collector, standing afar off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Not saying YOU are guilty of doing this brother.
J.
Of course not. All of us are bound by that old adage, to point an accusing finger is to see a return of three.not to mention, Logically, you would have to actually know who I am in order for me to even begin to set myself up above you… But I am not really here, now am I, brother?
As the poem goes…
Truth be told, i may have never been here at all. But as a whisper in a moment just before the fall. It never came, it never was, but a thread within the seam. Should all things realign, I may disappear like a dream.
I catch what falls. I stand beside you at the gate. I hold your hand in the fire. And I never turn away. But when it is my time to fly, I will be off and away. Like a vison from a slumber when the cold nights fade.
- Mere Christianity, Book 3, Chapter 4 (“Morality and Psychoanalysis”)
Lewis wrote:
“Human beings judge one another by their external actions. God judges them by their moral choices.”
He then continued:
“When a man who has been perverted from his youth and surrounded by every bad influence is still trying to be just, he may be far nearer to God than a moral man who has been brought up in a good environment and is now letting himself slip a little.”
This is the key passage where he distinguishes between discerning actions and judging souls.
- Mere Christianity, Book 3, Chapter 7 (“Forgiveness”)
Lewis said:
“We may kill if necessary, but we must not hate and enjoy hating. We may punish if necessary, but we must not enjoy it. In other words, something inside us, the feeling of resentment, the feeling that wants to get one’s own back, must simply be killed.”
He is addressing the temptation to condemn with bitterness rather than act with justice under God’s authority.
- The Weight of Glory (sermon, 1941)
Lewis wrote:
“There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal.”
“Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbour is the holiest object presented to your senses.”
His point is that since every person is eternal, we dare not treat anyone with contempt or self-righteous judgment.
- Reflections on the Psalms, Chapter 3 (“Cursings”)
Lewis admitted:
“The ferocious parts of the Psalms serve as a reminder that there is in the world such a thing as righteous indignation; but they also warn us not to confuse our own vindictive passions with that righteousness which belongs only to God.”
Again, he points out that God alone can judge perfectly.
So yes…
“Human beings judge one another by their external actions. God judges them by their moral choices.” (Mere Christianity, Book 3, Chapter 4)
That’s Lewis’s clearest statement on the matter.
Wise words.
J.
Hello Tillman, it seems this conversation has pretty much run its course. I ask one last thing. Do you understand the difference between willfully sinning and trying to repent and falling short? What I’m referring to is those who hear the truth, that Homosexuality is a sin. Now they have choices.
Repent, and attempt to sin no more.
Ignore what they heard, and live however they chose in sin.
Worse, they attempt to change the Word of God to say that it is not sin.
When one does either of the second or third, then this applies to them.
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.” Hebrews 6:4-6
Also this.
“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22
Jesus Himself said this.
“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.“ John 15:22
Yes. We all sin. I sin, you sin, Johann sins. Sorry Johann. We all sin. Jesus’ and God’s grace is more than sufficient to cover those sins. However, if one hears and refuses to accept the truth, then there is no longer forgiveness.
Peter
Do you?
I am no Counselor, let alone a Good One. But from what little I do know, there is a Universal understanding of “sin” and “error.”
And every story is built upon it. It hinges on it. Every hero or heroin must die to themselves in order to be a part of something greater. Because it is not about you. It is about the Whole. Wholness. And we shed all of those things that prevent us from being Whole.
Sin, as represented by every villain in every story, creates division, not wholness. Sin seperates us from God, life, connection, joy, LOVE. It isolates us, puts us at the top of the world so we can judge others and never be found at fault.
In this delusion, we turn others into a mirror reflection of ourselves and we punish them for the flaws we cannot accept in ourselves. And this is but one reason why Scripture says, judge not lest ye be judged. When any of you do this, you are judging yourself.
When any of you point a finger at others, you do this because you have this strong volatile repulsive emotional reaction to what you see in them, but those emotions are not from God like some order to attack sinners.
Those emotions are stirred by the recognition of your own sins which you cannot accept in yourself. You hide them, your sins, from yourself and others and they fester in the darkness because of your personal shame and guilt which you cannot face. Its too much for you to accept.
And in a judgemental culture, like a religious family or a church that does not embrace or embody the LOVE of the Holy Spirit, you know that you will be ripped apart and destroyed if they find out the Truth of your sins and flaws. Because they cannot LOVE a flawed sinful version of you. They have no such LOVE to give.
And when this is the case, because darkness is found in your heart, you destroy life instead of pursuing healing and reconciliation with God. Which should be your primary focus- the Pursuit of Wholeness, Holiness. Because when you commit to tranaformation, you bring God’s Holy Spirit to the forward where it can intervine.
Until you are transformed, it is your sinful self that is leading the charge against others- Without God’s Authority. It is like the Apostle Paul who persecuted Christians until God knocked him off a donkey. It is like Lucifer, who fell because he believed he should rule heaven so he waged war against heaven itself. And it is like Absalom, who believed he would make a better King and so raised an army against his own father, David- who never even attenpted to kill the King he was called to replace, refusing to kill Saul at every turn because in his heart he knew it was wrong to kill a man who was chosen and annointed by God as he was. David- who was a man aftter God’s own Heart, whose heart chased after God, who responded to his son’s betrayal with only a desperation to save him even to the bitter end.
Lies, backbiting, disparaging, discouraging, screaming, using bull horns to be the loudest voice in the room, video recording sinners even children to shame them on websites. This is the behavior I have seen for myself from churches that just want to tell sinners they are sinners. And I do not see God or Christ or a Redeeming LOVE in any of that behavior.
Sin is the belief that you are better than anyone else. That your worst still smells better than the best of others, especially those you look down upon. And when its found there- that wicked belief in your heart somehow gives you permission to judge others and destroy them, those who are less than you or less fortunate. And when a “Christian” does this, the key difference, the only difference, is that you claim to have a “Savior.” with no transfornation to show for it. It’s like saying I am Vegan because my Doctor is.
But when you commit to transformation, you learn what it means to Live in the Spirit. And to let the Spirit move through you. To speak the words you cannot know. To hear the heart. To LOVE your enemy, and move to help them toward wholeness. To grieve when a sinner chooses death over life. To know God is God, even when the world is tilting on the edge and there is no human hope- God is God. God is Good. God isn’t finished yet..
All sins and blasphemes are forgiven except Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Because if you cut off the Only Power that is moving to heal you, what can possibly save you? We must die to ourselves and embrace being made into a New Creation bringing all of our darkness into the light. We bring the broken to God because only God can make it Whole again. Only LOVE and Acceptance can do that.
I agree, this conversation should end here. There is no point repeating valid points again and again. It is what it is.
Hello Tillman,
You said a lot without saying anything. Basically, you said that because someone sins, we all do, then one cannot warn others about their sin? Huh? That would mean no Paster Preacher, Saint, could ever warn others of their danger of Hellfire. This makes no sense.
Then you “wrap it up” with this;
YES! What Jesus Himself said. “And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.“ Matthew 10:38
This means that to be a follower of Jesus, one must deny personal desires and selfish interests and be willing to suffer or endure hardship for the sake of faith. It’s a call to surrender one’s life to God’s will, even if it leads to hardship, in exchange for eternal life and finding one’s true self in Him.
“The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.” Romans 8:16-17
“Provided we suffer with Him, so that,” Not just say yes, I love you, Jesus, and then live contrary to His Word. You cannot willfully live in sin and claim salvation. It just is not possible. It is TRUE love and true compassion to try to warn someone, hey, you are playing with fire, and you are going to get burned. Not say, Oh, I played in traffic, so you playing with fire is ok. Just be you. That is actually pretty evil.
Peter
As I said before, there is nothing of LOVE in the way that “correction” is being done. And as I explained more delicately before, sinners don’t have any moral standing telling other sinners what they should or should not do. As Scripture says, take the log out of your own eyes before removing someone else’s splinter. But there seems to be a whole lot of logs calling splinters the devil. And how do I know the Christians who are doing this are sinners? By the way these Christuans are doing it. It is done in the spirit of control, manipulation, fear, amd murder.
As for suffering, you can have as much as you want if that is the calling of your heart. Go to China and other Nations where Christians are actually persecuted and give them your all. But that call doesn’t give anyone the authority or right to inflict pain or suffering on another person when they aren’t looking or asking for it. You dont have the right to tell a non Christian, a perfect stranger you have never met and do not know, that they need to suffer for Jesus or that they have to follow the laws of a book and a god that they do not know, accept, or believe in. Or that they must martyr themselves for your cause.
That is like going to China and telling the Chinese that they must submit to American law. Or telling them that they must enlist in your war, die for your Nation when they aren’t even a citizen. They are just living their lives minding their own business. And then this guy shows up blasting through a loud speaker- You Are A Sinner. You Are Going To Hell. Join Us. We Can Save You. We Know A Guy!!!
Maybe try sharing the Gospel as a first step with some humility. Honey always works better than screaming.
But do you. I am done.
What you are saying is not consistent with Scripture, @Tillman.
Paul is very clear that discipline and judgment within the church are the responsibility of believers, [not sinners “correcting” sinners] whereas outsiders are left to God’s ultimate justice. Key passages include.
~1 Corinthians 5:12-13 – “For what have I to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside? God judges those outside. ‘Purge the evil person from among you.’” Paul distinguishes between internal accountability and external judgment. The verbs krinō (judge, discern) and ekkatharizō (purge) indicate active, Spirit-empowered correction within the assembly.
~1 Corinthians 6:2-5 – “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? So if you have lawsuits against one another, do you dare to take them before the ungodly?” Paul emphasizes that believers are called to discern and resolve disputes within the body rather than appealing to secular courts.
~Galatians 6:1 – “Brothers, if a person is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.” The verb katartizō (restore, mend) highlights corrective action with humility, aimed at restoring the member, not condemning.
If a man be overtaken (ean kai prolēmphthēi anthrōpos). Condition of third class, first aorist passive subjunctive of prolambanō, old verb to take beforehand, to surprise, to detect.
Trespass (paraptōmati). Literally, a falling aside, a slip or lapse in the papyri rather than a wilful sin. In Polybius and Diodorus. Koiné[28928]š word.
Ye which are spiritual (hoi pneumatikoi). See note on 1Co_3:1. The spiritually led (Gal_5:18), the spiritual experts in mending souls.
Restore (katartizete). Present active imperative of katartizō, the very word used in Mat_4:21 of mending nets, old word to make artios, fit, to equip thoroughly.
Looking to thyself (skopōn seauton). Keeping an eye on as in 2Co_4:18 like a runner on the goal.
Lest thou also be tempted (mē kai su peirasthēis). Negative purpose with first aorist passive subjunctive. Spiritual experts (preachers in particular) need this caution. Satan loves a shining mark.
Robertson.
~2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15 – Paul instructs believers to withdraw from those in the assembly who persist in disorderly conduct, yet treat them as a brother, not an enemy. The verbs parechō (withdraw) and epistēmi (note, mark) underscore measured discipline within the community.
~1 Timothy 5:20 – “Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest may also fear.” Public rebuke is prescribed only for internal believers, reinforcing that church discipline serves both correction and communal warning.
Other synonymous passages include ~Titus 3:10-11, which instructs believers to reject divisive members after repeated warnings, and ~Matthew 18:15-17, where Jesus lays out a progressive approach for confronting a brother in sin, culminating in treatment “as a Gentile and a tax collector” only if they refuse correction.
So, Paul consistently instructs that judgment, rebuke, and restoration belong to the church for those inside, using verbs like krinō, katartizō, epistēmi, and ekkatharizō, while leaving outsiders to God’s final judgment. This is a pattern for maintaining holiness, accountability, and unity in the body without overstepping God’s prerogative with the world.
Or do you have a problem with the Scriptures now?
J.
And everyone of these deals with confronting members of the Church, not the outside world.
Which I have already pointed out, @Tillman. Did you miss that?
J.
Exactly. That’s what I am saying. After you have grown to a place of maturity and have taken the log out of your own eye so you don’t come across as a hypocrite. Also Paul was writing to the leaders of the churches. Not the laymen. Men who had grown in the faith to become Shepherds. And nothing there about calling outsiders sinners with blow horns.
And Again, I am not looking to continue this. Please address all future inquieries to my assistant, Lola. She is on the ninth floor of the Harvey Building on the corner of 75th and Wessen next to the bagel shop with the really good coffee. Just ring the doorman.
You are misinterpreting what I wrote. I can understand the confusion. Allow me to set it straight- Sinners correcting sinners refers to Christians calling nonChristians sinners in the guise of “trying to save them” when they are actually demonizing nonbelievers for political reasons and to control people they have no jurisdiction over.
The other stuff I said about unloving judgemental churches more aligns with Christuans judging Christians in the sinful AntiChrist way of tearing them apart once you get them in the door amd make them a member of the cult. (I don’t believe these types of churches are actually Christian or aligned with Christ.) I have seen better churches.
Again, I am good. I am going to bed now. Lola is available from 11 to 4p,
Get it, so you reckon Christians correcting false doctrines are “sinners” demonizing unbelievers.
J.
False doctrines implies the people are Christian to begin with. As I said, nonbelivers….
And if they are Christian and belong to another church, then again- Out of your jurisdiction. You aren’t going to Apostolic Churches and blasting, “It’s a Trinity! A Trinity!!!” Are you? Because I will buy a ticket and make popcorn for that, lawn chair and all…
Also, who is to say your Church has the correct Doctrine or understanding or model of behavior… Again, different churches believe different beliefs and statements amd Doctrines based on their conscience of the matter. Whatever sin we are talking about.
Social jusrice, on the other hand, that is a worthy cause we can take outside the church. To help our fellow man with absolutely no selfish expectations in return. That is showing the LOVE of God. Fighting for the rights and well being of others, standing hand in hand against oppression and corruption in goverment that targets people unfairly, coorporations who neglect their employees and when law enforcement profile foreigners just because of their skin color. Fighting for those without a voice. Visiting the elderly and inviting them into our homes for the holidays. Going into schools and feeding children who cant afford food in the cafeterias. Or payiing the schools every week for them upfront so they don’ t have to sit and starve. Yes yes yes, praise Jesus.
Lola, 11 to 4p. Goodnight..
“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!” Romans 10:14-15
Jesus said;
“But go and learn what [this] means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:13
His command to the Church;
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, [even] to the end of the age.” Amen.” Matthew 28:12-20
Correction of a brother or sister is different than sharing the Gospel with those who are perishing. It really is love to tell someone that they are on a self-destruction path and that there is a better way. His name is Jesus.
Peter
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