This is theological salad.
Just a bunch of things tossed in together, which is fine I guess— for salad.
As far as theology goes, it’s almost incomprehensible…
Can you make any of that make sense?
Hi,
No MeE.
You did, however, make me read my post again thinking I wrote something horribly wrong.
I was/am trying to show a progression of when Jesus had the sin placed on Him.
I find it interesting and hope others do as well.
Jesus was without sin when they nailed Him to the cross.
He was without sin when H spoke to the two thieves
On the ninth hour we read Jesus cried out to the Father.
But no response.
Jesus is separated from the Father for the first time ever.
By the twelfth hour the price had been paid.
Jesus appears to be once again in communication with the Father as He commends His spirit.
Then He dies.
I am satisfied that I showed the verses,and the order of progression through them, necessary to understand how I arrived at my conclusion.
Did anybody else have a problem understanding what I wrote, and my reasoning for it.
I wrote it to get more of the Word into the conversation.
You don’t have to agree with me MrE.
I’m OK if you do or don’t.
What really concerns me is that you would slur my contribution.
Yet you have left no criticism other than calling it “theological salad.”
Please show me the error of my ways
I have read some of your posts.
You like to aggressively disagree with people, don’t you.
I am not going to respond to you in kind.
I love you in the Lord and will not come back at you in personal way.
Blessings
@Joe-- I was referencing what you wrote and there was no slur included. Rather than defending what you wrote, and explaining what you meant, you instead decided to make it personal. It wasn’t.
I am glad however that you recognize that people don’t have to agree with you at all times-- I don’t. And on this particular timeline of ‘when Jesus became sin’ --I really don’t.
As with my comment to @Farid -who suggests that God needed to offer Jesus as a sacrifice I find the idea repulsive, that God would kill His innocent son, as on the cross. Do you know who killed Jesus? We did. People did.
Don’t blame God for things people do.
“No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
Jesus
John 10:18
Jesus didn’t commit suicide either @Fritzpw_Admin
I’m not saying he did, but he was willing to die on the cross for us, and he submitted to the Father’s will to that end.
Of course. What you didn’t say, you perhaps implied.
Are you at all unclear on how Jesus died and why? Don’t think it good. Had turned what was wholly evil into something holy hood, for His own purposes.
Some words that I first pondered a few years and that have continued to be deeply affecting to me are found in Matthew 27:50: “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.” The amazing thing about these words is that they show us that Jesus was in control of the timing of His death. Though the nails had pierced His hands and feet, and though He had been beaten to be point of being almost unrecognizable, He died only when He decided to yield up His spirit. In his account of the crucifixion, John says Jesus “gave up His spirit.” This was an active, not a passive act. The significance of this wording is that it shows that Jesus was in control of the timing of His death. He did not die because His body could take no more punishment or because of blood loss. He died because He decided it was time to die. His work was accomplished and there was no reason for Him to linger. And so he gave up His spirit and returned to His Father.
Maybe-- that’s a theory some hold to. It could mean simply that he took his last breath, or that he gave up his will to live. As a firefighter and at the deathbed of my own mom-- I’ve seen both. Accident victims and those dying from natural causes can both ‘give up their spirit’ and give up on life, take their last breath and die. That’s all that verse 50 says-- to make it say more is to put your own theological twist upon the text. Don’t feel bad. Everyone does it.
Hi,
“I recently heard a Pastor speak as though Jesus actually became ‘sin’, not just bore the penalty for our sin. (as if that wasn’t enough)
Personally I don’t see that Jesus had to become sin, but what say you?” Quote from studyfun
Well, what did Jesus say about this?
John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. KJV
So that’s fairly definitive.
Jesus did not commit suicide.
Only Jesus was in control of His life.
We also know that Jesus could have stopped His crucifix at any time.
Matthew 26:52-54 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? KJV
Imagine knowing you could stop all the whipping, the placing of the crown of thorns, the beating He took at the hands of His captors, any time He chose.
Jesus chose to let the violence against Him continue.
So I believe it is fair to say that esus gave His life…
But it was not by suicide.
Blessings
Maybe Jesus became sin in His mission, but not in His essence
Jesus was all about doing His Father’s will. The mission he had was to take away our sin so we could be forgiven and become children of God. It was essential that He completely be destroyed because of every sin in the universe, so He became all that it took to completely do the Father’s will. When he had done this God recognized that His Son was essentially perfect underneath all man’s sin and that perfection allowed God to raise Him back to life.
What do you think? Did Messiah became sin?
J.
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
There are a couple ways I think I want to address this. Firstly we should notice the dichotomy of Sin ←→ Righteousness. So the other side of the coin is that we are made “the righteousness of God”. What does it mean for a person to be “righteousness”? We can speak of a person as being righteous, but righteousness itself is not some solid object or “thing” that exists all on its own independently. I can’t go out into the woods and find “righteousness”, pick it up, handle it, nor can I peer out of my telescope and find “righteousness” somewhere out there among the stars and galaxies. Righteousness is always connected to something–a person, an act, an idea, etc. God is righteous, because this describes His absolute justice, God is just, God is righteous, this describes God in His judgments, in His dealings with us, in His disposition toward His creation. In this same way “sin” is not like a rock or a tree, I can’t pick it up, or find it outside of the sinfulness of a person, an act, an idea, etc.
I think this is important, because St. Paul is not saying that Jesus’ Ontology changed: that Jesus literally became this thing called “Sin”; neither do I think Paul is saying that we have become this “thing” called Righteousness. What St. Paul is saying is that there is an exchange: what we are, on Christ’s account, is righteous, we are–in Christ–just, justified. We have recieved God’s righteousness so that we are declared truly and fully righteous–even though we have done nothing righteous in and of ourselves to deserve it.
I have not acted righteously, and God therefore acknowledges my own righteousness and thus calls me righteous on my own account. Rather there is a righteousness that is not my own (it is the Righteousness of God) which God declares of me for Christ’s sake. That is one side of this “Happy Exchange” as Martin Luther called it.
Christ “received” my sin. My sinfulness. Christ did not deserve death, He was without sin. He, alone of all human beings, was truly innocent and thus the curse of Adam (death) should not have anything to do with Him. But Christ, willingly, out of His own love, receives death as one of Adam’s offspring; and the exchange is that He bore the death of sinners (though He was sinless) and we, who are sinners, receive and bear the Divine Righteousness that is properly His.
I am sinful, not righteous.
Christ is righteous, not sinful.
Yet Christ is the One who suffers and dies; and now I receive what I do not deserve: eternal life. So Christ who does not deserve death dies; and I who do deserve death live. Christ “became sin” by occupying the place of death in my stead (for I am a sinner); and I receive what Christ is as a pure gift (His righteousness), and am therefore declared to be God’s righteousness.
This is about this Happy Exchange. Not about ontological categories of being.
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@Fritz_Admin, the previous context sheds light on 2 Corinthians 5:21. It reads in part,
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2Co 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.
2Co 5:12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart.
2Co 5:13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
The context puts verse 21 in a legal framework. That is, according to verse 10, Jesus is our Judge; but according to verses 14 and 15, when he died, he represented all believers as their head. Other passages present that headship.
In 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter, God inspired Paul to contrast Jesus’ headship representing us with Adam’s headship of all humans:
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
At this point, we can approach verse 21 to see that Paul is saying that Jesus’ representation of us believers means that he legally took our sins on himself so that we can have his righteousness with the result that the Father then condemns Jesus for our sins. As a result, Jesus’ death atoned for our sins by taking our punishment in our place. That’s how he “became sin.”