Did the Jews and Gentiles both receive the Spirit before they were water baptized

Theology
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Have you read it yourself? Have you prayed about it?
Have you asked God to lead you and guide you?
Have you looked into any of what has been said.

Before you are so quick to answer :folded_hands: try. I haven’t finished reading
but so far so good.

What can you say after you read?

22

I have already provided you with my assessment of this Corlove, and I do not need to read his articles to form that evaluation. What I did say is that I am willing and fully prepared to provide you with links to reliable and orthodox sources.

Shalom.

J.

23

Alright, let’s walk through this clearly. First, Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are not two different things. Same Spirit. Same Person. Different English wording. The Greek word is pneuma. No mystery there.

Now here’s the real issue. Does the water bring the Spirit, or does faith bring the Spirit?

Look at Acts 10. Peter is still preaching. Nobody has touched the water yet. And suddenly, “the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word” ~Acts 10:44. They’re still standing there listening to the sermon. Then Peter says, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” ~Acts 10:47.

You see the order? Spirit first. Water second. The water didn’t bring the Spirit. The Spirit showed up because faith showed up.

Now go back to Acts 2. Peter says, “Repent, and be baptized
 and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” ~Acts 2:38. Repentance is the turning of the heart. Baptism is the public testimony. But Paul makes it plain: “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” ~Galatians 3:2. The Spirit comes by faith, not by ritual.

Think of baptism like a wedding ring. The ring doesn’t make you married. The covenant does. The ring just tells the world what already happened. Water baptism is the ring. The Spirit is the covenant reality.

Paul himself believed on the road to Damascus. He called Jesus “Lord” ~Acts 9:5. Then Ananias says he will be “filled with the Holy Ghost” ~Acts 9:17, and afterward he is baptized ~Acts 9:18. Again, faith and Spirit, then water.

So here’s the bottom line: Jews and Gentiles both received the Spirit when they believed. Water followed as obedience. The gift in Acts 2:38 is the Holy Spirit Himself. Not something separate. Not something mechanical.

God does not respond to water. He responds to faith.

1 Like
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Hi, Agreed
 and let me add:

Look what happened at Jesus’s own baptism

How can God call Him His son unless He had the Spirit of the Father?..The baptism was to show the people who He was. A testimony not of Himself but from His father for the People.

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You have no legg to stand on then. It sound like arguments Sam Shamoun has with Muslims.
They believe the Quran is true because someone said it was. (Circular)Hence your sources will be what agrees with You. That’s what is going to determine rather they are reliable. So no thank you! I will read it for myself. It’s the truth that sets one free. What He says will be either true and concur with scripture or false and not concur with scripture.

Peace and Blessings as we go our separate ways.
Shake :handshake:

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I just want to repost your link so that the readers can make an informed decision themselves.

My sources are academic, hermeneutical, and exegetical in nature, and notably, those same sources often disagree with my own position and theology.

That said
Adieu.

Unbelievable that your hair is ruffled and not kindly disposed to correction.

J.

27

I too believe the Bible teaches that being born again through faith comes first before water baptism and the Holy Spirit is sealed within the believer at that time. So we agree on this and I don’t think its necessary that we agree on all things. We agree on what’s important; the basics of the Christian faith - Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again. That makes us sisters. I’m not going to convince you that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are one and the same, and that’s ok. You’re not going to convince me that there different. That’s ok too. In answer to your question; many received the Spirit prior to baptism and some received the Spirit at baptism. Circumstances were the cause. Not any dictate by God on how it must go. Be blessed @Corlove13

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Thanks Sis Appreciate that.

The thing is, more so, is that I want to look into it. I believe it has something to do with the topic;

As to after one comes out the water How they are empowered for service. For some they believe finding a difference is going to deny the Trinity. But I doubt that.

But thanks for taking part in the discussion. I will continue on for others who are interested in the subject.

1 Like
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Most importantly is to forget that comment I just made but deleted

Yes, false academics—comprising fraudulent research, fake credentials, and predatory publishing—is a growing, serious issue. In 2023, over 10,000 research papers were retracted due to fraud, with some estimates suggesting up to 1 in 7 scientific papers may be fabricated, often originating from “paper mills”.

Key aspects of false academics include:

  • Fabricated Data & Research: Researchers altering, inventing, or manipulating data to achieve desired results or publish faster.
  • Predatory Journals & Conferences: Fake journals with little to no peer review that publish junk science for a fee, and fraudulent conferences designed to scam researchers.
  • Paper Mills: Organizations that produce and sell fake, high-quality manuscripts to researchers looking to boost their publication records.
  • Diploma Mills: Institutions selling fake, unaccredited degrees to individuals seeking professional advantages, causing significant financial and ethical damage.

This phenomenon is driven by the high pressure to “publish or perish” in academia and the financial incentives of the educational credential market.

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Look @Corlove13 all I did was trying to help, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not inclined to remain here, with you, when sincere guidance toward what is right is being dismissed.

J.

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Everyone has an opinion, you can remain
the truth is not in what you say. It’s what the Holy Ghost reveals.

Muslims believe they hold the truth
but can’t prove it. To say your sources are reliable and another is not- you would have to prove. And if the only way you have to prove that is through circular reasoning then that’s something you must evaluate.

You can stay
someone who wants to study is whom Im looking to have conversations with. If you believe you hold the truth in someway others don’t, guess what I am sure you are not the first, nor the last.

I’m trying to study, while you want to stop people from trying to get an snswer for themselves. Yet you will never be able to prove your sources are reliable unless you get into all that they believe, holding they know the truth about things that haven’t entered their minds to consider.

So this is usually our issue- you dont allow for duscussion. And while I appreciate how you go to the root of words, I see you as confrontational, dogmatic, that your way is the only and right way to consider studying.

You staying or not staying
who are you?

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Nope, I’m out of your thread, way too confrontational and since you are latched onto “Academics” be truthful in what you post about me. You have made a lot of untruthful claims and I discern no fruit of the Ruach HaKodesh from you.

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You ask “Who am I?”

Just a beggar telling other beggars where the real food is.

I have learned a valuable lesson from you today.

J.

33

Not true.

Not true.

Not true.

Not true.

No, not on your thread.

J.

1 Like
34

There was nothing to correct.

35

Whatever you say Corlove, you “Jane” me “Tarzan” emasculated.

Cheers.

J.

1 Like
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In the Middle Ages, the English Bible was transcribed by Christian translators using different words for a Greek word to signify that there are two distinctions. These translators decided that the “Holy Spirit” and the “Holy Ghost” were two entirely different ideas. “Holy Spirit” was used as a description of the Spirit of the Lord, or God’s Spirit, that visited the Hebrew people in the Old Testament. On the other hand, the term “Holy Ghost” was used as a description of the third person or spirit in the Holy Trinity.

In the 6th century, printers of the Bible used letters to make a strong distinction between the titles using lower case for “spirit” in the Old Testament and “Spirit” in the New Testament. These differences in translation are not based on the original Greek or Hebrew words. The Greek “pneuma” is used for “ghost” and “hagion” for “holy.” These words were combined as “hagion pneuma” in all instances which have been translated to English as “Ghost” or “Spirit” greatly depending on the interpretation of the translator.

In the Bible, the title “Holy Ghost” was used 90 times in the New Testament of the KJV while “Holy Spirit” appears 4 times. The context of the New Testament usage was from a prophetic point of view. The Bible translators were consistent in retaining the contextual distinction between the many forms of “spirit,” such as “Spirit of the Lord” and “Spirit of God.”

In the 17th century, however, the word “ghost” was synonymous to “spirit.” The Bible translators used both words to stress differences between the ideas of the spirit of God and the third part of the Trinity in the Old Testament. Eventually, though, the word “ghost” was used to pertain to the soul of a departed person and became a scary and eerie being that haunts people. In modern times, all the Bible translations, except for the King James Version, use “Holy Spirit” in all instances including those that the KJV called as the “Holy Ghost.”

Difference Between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit | Difference Between | Holy Ghost vs Holy Spirit Difference Between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit | Difference Between | Holy Ghost vs Holy Spirit

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Looks like you have not read the “summary” of the same article @Corlove13

Summary:

1.In modern times, the titles “Holy Ghost” and “Holy Spirit” are considered synonymous.

2.The differences in the usage of “Holy Ghost” and “Holy Spirit” are mostly due to the nuances of the English language affected by the incorporation of words from other languages.

3.In the Middle Ages, the title “Holy Spirit” was used to describe or pertain to God’s Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord, whereas “Holy Ghost” was used to describe the third person in the Holy Trinity.

4.Although based on the Greek words “pneuma hagion,” the translations for “Holy Ghost” and “Holy Spirit” greatly depended on the translator’s understanding and interpretation of the context.

5.In modern times, almost all of the translations of the Bible, except the King James Version, use “Holy Spirit” for all instances.

100% agree with the summary, that the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are synonymous.

Thank you for steel manning my case, and what I was trying to convey to you.

J.

38

Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be addressed to you directly.
The summary does not add nor take away

For it’s talking about how modern day see the meaning as it has already been changed. The question is should they?

But I have reason why I believe.
1Peter 1

Searching what, or what maner of time the **

Spirit of Christ

** which was in them did signifie, when it testified beforehand the suffrings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The difference between u and I is I am willing to look into the subject to prove rather the stand is true or false.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the

  • spirit of God*

dwell in you. Now if any man haue not the

  • spirit of Christ*

, he is none of his.”

What meaneth this? Why do the authors make a distinction ?
( the ., *, and slant are not in the original text)

39

Slant or no slant, don’t you think this is a very important verse in the passage?

Goes something like this


The Conflict of Realms: Sarx vs. Pneuma
Paul begins by identifying where the believer “is.”

In the Flesh (en sarki): The word sarx (flesh) here refers to the carnal nature-the self-governed life that is hostile to God. To be “in the flesh” is to be submerged in the old nature of Adam.

In the Spirit (en pneumati): The word pneuma refers to the Holy Spirit.

The Exegesis: Notice the preposition en (in). It denotes location or sphere. Paul is not describing how you behave; he is describing where you live. Just as a fish is “in” the water, the believer is “in” the Spirit.

  1. The Indwelling: Oikeƍ (ÎżáŒ°Îșέω)
    The proof of your location is the presence of the “Resident” within you.

Dwell (oikei): This is a form of the verb oikeƍ, which comes from the noun oikos (house).

The Morphology: It is a Present Active Indicative. This means the Spirit doesn’t just “visit” or “pass through”; He has taken up permanent residence. He has “moved in” and made your heart His home.

The Examination: To examine ourselves, we must ask: Is the Holy Spirit “at home” in my thoughts? In 1 Corinthians 11:28, we are told to “examine” (dokimadzƍ) ourselves. Does the “Owner” of the house have the keys to every room (the mind, the will, the emotions)?

  1. The Conditional Particle: Ei-per (ΔጎπΔρ)
    Paul uses a very specific “if” in this verse.

If so be that (ei-per): This is more than a simple “if.” It is a conditional particle that can mean “since” or “provided that.”

The Exegesis: Paul is using a First Class Condition, which assumes the truth of the statement for the sake of the argument. He is saying, “Since the Spirit of God dwells in you, and He does, then you are not in the flesh.”

The Examination: This forces us to look for the evidence of the Resident. If a person lives in a house, there is evidence of their presence (furniture, light, activity). If the Spirit dwells in you, there must be the “fruit” of His presence.

  1. The Exclusive Reality: Ouk Echƍ (ÎżáœÎș ጔχω)
    The final part of the verse is a “cutting” negative.

Have not (ouk echei): The verb echƍ means to possess or hold.

The Exegesis: Paul is absolute. There is no “middle ground.” If a man does not possess the Spirit, he “is none of his.” He does not belong to Christ’s “family” or “ownership.”

The Examination: This is the most sober part of the exegesis. It brings us back to 2 Corinthians 5:21. We are made the righteousness of God “in Him.” If we are “in Him,” His Spirit is “in us.” To examine yourself is to see if you are relying on your own “fleshly” works or on the “indwelling” power of Christ.

Summary for Self-Examination
Check your Address: Am I reacting to life from the Sarx (my old, selfish habits) or from the Pneuma (God’s perspective)?

Check the Resident: Does the Spirit Oikeƍ (dwell) in me? Is there a sense of “home” and “peace” between my spirit and His?

Check the Ownership: Do I Echƍ (possess) the Spirit as my seal and guarantee? As Romans 8:16 says, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.”

You with me?

J.

40

Hi, are you saying that if the Spirit is in them the outward would look like Christ?..if not..no not sure what u r saying.