Did the Jews and Gentiles both receive the Spirit before they were water baptized

Theology
61

We agree 100 percent.

Yes. Thank you for clarifying your position. I was starting to get a little concerned.

I do understand the distinction you pointed out.

Shalom

Peter

62

Of course, Demons are real. The Devil is real. Angels are real. Not sure of your point.

However, the rest of your post? Let me say this plainly.

The Holy Spirit is not Wind.

The Holy Spirit is not Water.

The Holy Spirit, like Jesus, is God.

However, saying that the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are two different things would be saying that there is a Quaternity, not a Trinity. Or that there are two Holy “spirits” One’s name is Ghost and the other’s name is Spirit? This is simply NOT Biblical. As I think I said before, the difference is entirely linguistic rather than theological.

Some did not like the term Ghost. They said things like “He is not a spook. So later translations changed it to Spirit. It really is this simple. The “Ghost” vs. “Spirit” confusion is the modern definition of a ghost. Today, a “ghost” is almost exclusively viewed as the disembodied spirit of a dead person (often spooky or haunting).

Biblical View: In 1611, “Ghost” simply meant “the living essence” or “breath” of a person. Because of this shift, some people mistakenly believe the “Holy Ghost” refers to the Spirit of Jesus after his death, while the “Holy Spirit” refers to the general presence of God. In reality, they are both translations of the same Greek word, $pneuma$.

Peter

63

Why @PeterC? Because Scripture teaches that only the elect, those whom God has chosen, come under deep conviction and genuine repentance when they hear the gospel. The response of faith is not merely the product of human decision but the result of God’s sovereign work in the heart.

Jesus Himself explains this clearly.

~John 6:37
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”[1]

Here Christ states that those given to Him by the Father will certainly come. Their coming is the result of the Father’s prior giving.

~John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”[2]

This text establishes the inability of fallen humanity. A person cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him. The drawing of God precedes and produces the coming.

This is why, when the gospel is preached, it produces repentance in some but not in others. The difference lies in God’s appointing grace.

~Acts 13:48
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”[3]

The text does not say they were appointed because they believed. Rather, those who had been appointed to eternal life believed. Their faith is the result of God’s prior determination.

This is also reflected in the prophetic testimony of Isaiah concerning the suffering Servant.

~Isaiah 53:1
“Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”[4]

The verse acknowledges that many will hear the report, yet only some will believe it. The reason given is revelation. The arm of the Lord must be revealed for the message to be truly received.

Therefore, when the gospel is proclaimed and Isaiah 53 is read, only those whom God has chosen are brought under deep conviction and repentance. The Spirit of God opens their hearts to understand the message of the suffering and risen Christ. As the Lord also opened Lydia’s heart to respond to the gospel.

~Acts 16:14
“One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”[5]

For this reason the conviction of sin and the repentance that follows the preaching of the gospel are not merely human reactions. They are the gracious work of God in those whom He has chosen, drawing them to Christ who died on the cross and rose again for their salvation.

Correct?

J.

  1. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. ESV ↩︎

  2. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. ESV ↩︎

  3. And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. ESV ↩︎

  4. Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ESV ↩︎

  5. One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. ESV ↩︎

64

Notes:

So here’s a thought from Spirit being within vs coming upon.

CHRIST IN YOU IS THE HOPE OF GLORY, RIGHT?
GOD HAD TO REVEAL HIS SON IN PAUL.

Why didn’t Paul know Christ was in Him?

Pieter’s Observation:

“early English Translators (not just KJV) knew of this difference and consistently translated Holy Ghost for the Spirit of God as the Third Member of the Trinity, distinct from Christ and external to the believer but poured out , using the word “ghost” seemingly is to mean “breathed OUT spirit” (see Gen 25:8 as an example of גוע (gava) - breathed out , and Mat 27:50 as an example of αφηκεν το πνευμα (send forth the spirit) are translated to “gave up the ghost”).” Pieter Rousseau Hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

According to Genesis 1:2-3, the Spirit of God moved/hovered over the face of the waters, and God said, “Let there be light”

So here are my thoughts

1. We know that the father gives the son All power.
Even power to impart life.

2.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved **

upon

** the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

What is interesting here is we see the Spirit of God, then God saying.

What does John 1:1 say:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Either there is seperation of God here as the trinity or there is not

So if we use this passage as a Trinity then we divide God…but can one divide God in Genesis until the word becomes flesh. Do we say the word was always His son before The word even comes into the earth?

Now if the actions of God already means ghost or breathed out, then the old testament should use breathed out, or ghost too.

The 2 things happen in creation,(or can we say when something is being changed) The Spirit moves upon and God Speaks.

In creation the water was there before He forms it, or until it takes shape.

For what was changing for Jesus at His baptism ???

Man is not formed yet Spiritually…and every thing in the beginning was created by Him, so now maybe the heart will be. So we are going from the physical to the Spiritual creation of man.

To be continued

Man’s Spirit did it already exist shapeless or unformed?

So who really was at Jesus baptism? ? ?

To be continued

65

No, not necessarily true

If the essence of ice, water and steam are all h20
And ice’s funtion is to freeze, water function is a part of what makes us up physically, and steams function is to spread out water in the air…

Am I saying ice and water are not h20 because they have different functions? No
But Yes 2 things can be true at the same time.
So saying the term ghost is different from the use of the term Spirit is not saying one can’t change positions status wise or forms as it/He enters a different atmophere, nor is it saying they are not made of the same essence.

Side note: why did you include " as i said before?"
Think about how that sounds. Thank you!

Saying something doesn’t make it true- If It is I better look at everyone’s point of view besides yours…

66

Well, you seem a little defensive there. I was simply stating that I have already said what I’m about to say, so people do not say, “You already said that.” It was in no way meant to be rude, or abrasive, or however you took it. If you were offended, I apologize, not my intent.

Jesus made this statement.

“Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” John 8:56-59

So then, Jesus was before His physical birth here.

Ok. Ice? frost, glacier, icicle, permafrost, iceberg, floe, hail, ice cube, dry ice, black ice. Water? sea, tide, blue, brine, briny, briny deep, deep, drink, high seas, etc. Simply called water H20 None of these changes what it is, simply by calling it by another name. It is still water, or frozen water.

The Holy Spirit is always the Holy Spirit, regardless of the linguistics involved. Ghost or Spirit, they are the same and mean the same. Is that not your point?

Peter

67

Ok, JESUS SAYS “I am” so what does that look like before He came into earth :globe_showing_americas:?

A. Is He breath
B. Is He breath in a form with Spiritual hands
C. Is He Spirit that can change shapes
D. Is He the word sent from God
E. Is He the word of God
F. Is He Jesus already in a spiritual body
Etc
Describe “I am” Spiritually

Or was He just describing His existence before Abraham as the word that was WITH God

If the word was with God - then when Did God become a father?

Was God the Father of the word before Jesus, His begotten, came into the world physically?

Yes! Exactly…but each one in its atmosphere can give off something different. Do you drink ice or crunch it, do you crunch water or drink it? Will water stick to your tongue like ice does? Water can be Luke warm, cold, or hot. Etc etc

………

With that said, did Jesus go back to the father the same way He came into the world? If so explain, If not explain.

Their essence’s is the same like water, steam and snow, are all h20

You are a man aren’t you?

But you were once a boy?

You may have been single at one time

And now you may have children, what changed?

But Aren’t you still human from the dust?

In this thought no one is saying a Spirit is not a Spirit.

Nor am I saying you are not Human because you were a boy and now a man.

Nor am I saying because you may have became a father you are not human created from the earth.

No, I was not being defensive I was a little offended. So Instead of being defensive I partly did Matthew 18:15-17 and Matthew 5:23-24. It emphasizes addressing disputes directly, privately, and promptly with the person involved to restore relationships, rather than harboring grudges or gossiping, aiming to "gain your brother

68

So Here is the Question:

Did God put the same person, or type of Spirit that was in Christ in us. If so what does that look like?

  1. Is it Christ’s Heart/mind
  2. Is it the Father’s Spirit
  3. Or Christ resurrected Spirit?

If so when Jesus poured out His Spirit, what does that mean?

For its already been established that Spirit can be within or upon.

If we say Spirit, and Spirit is unbodily personal power…whose personal power did you get?

Before Christ our own ability or power could not keep the Law. So who could keep it, in order to have access to the father?

69

The New Testament repeatedly affirms that the earthly life of Jesus is characterized by complete obedience to the will of the Father and therefore by perfect conformity to the divine law, which in biblical theology means that He fulfills the righteousness demanded in the Torah rather than standing under its condemnation.

The clearest programmatic statement comes from the words of Jesus Himself in the Sermon on the Mount where the relation between His mission and the Mosaic law is explicitly defined.

~Matthew 5:17–18

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”[1]

The verb πληρόω (plēroō) “to fulfill” carries the sense of bringing something to its full realization or completion. In the context of covenantal obedience this means that Christ embodies and completes the righteous demands contained in the law and the prophets.

Another decisive testimony appears in the apostolic description of Christ as sinless, which presupposes perfect obedience to the law because sin in Scripture is defined as lawlessness.

~1 John 3:4

“Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.”[2]

Against that definition John then states directly concerning Christ

~1 John 3:5

“You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.”[3]

If sin is lawlessness and Christ has no sin, the implication is that His life is perfectly aligned with the law of God.

The Pauline corpus frames this obedience in redemptive historical terms.

~Galatians 4:4–5

“But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law.”[4]

The phrase γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον “born under the law” indicates that Christ entered the covenantal jurisdiction of the Mosaic law. Redemption requires that He succeed where Israel and Adam failed, which presupposes perfect obedience.

Paul further states that Christ’s obedience is the ground of justification.

~Romans 5:18–19

“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.”[5]

The expression διὰ τῆς ὑπακοῆς τοῦ ἑνός “through the obedience of the one” refers to the entire obedient life of Christ culminating in the cross and vindicated in the resurrection.

The author of Hebrews also articulates the sinlessness of Christ in relation to human weakness.

~Hebrews 4:15

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.”[6]

The phrase χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας “without sin” indicates that although Christ experienced genuine temptation He never transgressed the law.

Finally Peter summarizes the moral perfection of Christ with explicit language drawn from the servant imagery of Isaiah.

~1 Peter 2:22

“He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.”[7]

This is a direct echo of ~Isaiah 53:9 where the suffering servant is described as completely innocent.

Taken together these texts establish the classical doctrine that Christ perfectly kept the law of God. He fulfills the law in His life, remains sinless under its demands, obeys the Father unto death on the cross, and through that obedience secures justification for those united to Him, with the resurrection serving as the divine vindication of that perfect righteousness.

J.

  1. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” - ESV ↩︎

  2. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. - ESV ↩︎

  3. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. - ESV ↩︎

  4. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. - ESV ↩︎

  5. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. - ESV ↩︎

  6. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. - ESV ↩︎

  7. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. - ESV ↩︎

70

I believe He had both a Spiritual body and a physical one. Do I understand how that works? Not a clue. But you have this in the Old Testament. The “Angel of the LORD”

The most common candidate for the physical appearance of Jesus is a specific figure called “the Angel of the LORD” (Malak YHWH). He is distinguished from regular angels because he often speaks as God, accepts worship, and is identified by those he meets as God himself.

Hagar in Genesis 16: The Angel of the LORD finds her in the desert. Hagar later says, “I have now seen the One who sees me,” recognizing the figure as divine.

The Sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis 22: The Angel stops Abraham’s hand and says, “Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son.”

Then you have the physical encounters as recorded in Genesis 32, wrestling with Jacob. Jacob wrestles with a “man” all night. Afterward, Jacob names the place Peniel, “Face of God”, saying, “I have seen God face to face.”

There are instances where God appears not just as a messenger, but as a man interacting with the physical world. Oh, then you have the fourth man in the Fire in Daniel 3. King Nebuchadnezzar sees a fourth figure in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, describing him as having a form “like a son of the gods.”

Since Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity, it is “fitting” that he would be the one to bridge the gap and appear in physical form during the Old Covenant. The distinction to keep in mind is the fact that these were “theophanies” or temporary appearances, whereas the New Testament “incarnation” was a permanent change where the Word truly became flesh.

Peter

71

OK to make my point- let’s just start here at these words you wrote above.

Your interpretation is that: it is Christ, not a mere angel- and scripture (i believe)says- angel of the Lord.

So if this interpretation is correct then Christ here is a messenger.

And what is the function of this messenger?

Assuming you answered-

Well How come you can’t see that the Holyghost which is Spirit→ having a different function than the Holy Spirit. Assuming of course “Your interpretation”

about Christ being the messenger is true?

Historians can have a guess why ghost is used, but they dont have the translators affirming this because it seems they left no notes to confirm.

Hence, my explorations

For we know one comes upon →Holyghost

And one is in a person →Holy Spirit

One comes on→ to annoit with power, endow power, and etc

The one that lives within→ guides

Let’s see looking at other baptisms as representatives

  • Red Sea as Baptism: Other theological interpretations (often aligned with similar evangelical views) describe the Israelites passing through the Red Sea as a “type” or shadow of Christian baptism, where God guides and the Holy Spirit “overshadows” the people.

Exploration time

For maybe from a Trinitarian perspective God who has manifested as 3 different persons (trying this on→)

All Persons are at the baptism..The Father within, the son pouring, or annoiting His Spirit.

**22 **Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews

Question

Did Jesus go the same way He came? Jesus came in the world a physical being, did He not go out a Spiritual being???

72

@Corlove, when the Bible is silent on a matter, we need to silent too and not speculate.

Every believer is able to believe and repent only by the presence of the Holy Spirit, who is the same as the Holy Ghost, according to the translation you are reading. KJV uses Holy Ghost; I’m not sure why.

Baptism is an expression of the gifts of faith and repentance in our lives as adults. Therefore, the Holy Spirit has already come into us. The Acts 8:14-17 passage refers to the Samaritans speaking in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit’s entrance into their lives. That result doesn’t happen with a majority of Christians. Along with Cornelius and his family and friends as well as the Ephesians later, it demonstrated to the Apostles that God was calling Gentiles as well as Jews to be believers without their need to become Jews first.

73

Ok. I just say this. I see this as the same Spirit operating in different functions. If it were not the same Spirit, then there would be four, not three. I think you are trying to say that very thing. If so, we agree. I just see it as the same being called different names. Like I could be a Doctor and a Policeman. Same me different rolls?

Now this is an interesting question. According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus’ departure wasn’t a return to a purely disembodied state. Instead, the texts describe a glorified physical body.

“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” Luke 24:39.

Acts 1:9-11 tells us that just as his disciples saw him ascend into heaven, so he will return in the same way:

“And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body of flesh, an incorruptible body, fit for eternity in heaven. His followers, who look to a heavenly citizenship, await the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is empowered to transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

“But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.” Philippians 3:20-21

After the resurrection, Jesus invites Thomas to touch His wounds and eats fish with the disciples, Luke 24:39–43. He explicitly states, “A spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” At the same time, this body wasn’t “physical” in the standard sense. He appears in locked rooms, disappears instantly, and is sometimes not immediately recognized by His closest friends.

While many view the spirit as the final form, orthodox teaching suggests He didn’t shed His humanity to become a spirit; rather, He “perfected” it. He arrived as a mortal man and departed as an immortal man.

Peter

74

Speculation are ok as long as speculations can be tested by the word. Its ok to try things on, its ok to asked questions. No one is to believe every spirit but to try the Spirit by the Spirit. Somewhere I read: to get Wisdom, and with all thy getting get an understanding.

There are many scholars that try things on, and many pastors that echoed thoughts without looking to see if it were true.

Point being if the 1611 kjv has the terms “spirit and holy” in lower case letters shouldn’t you want to know why? So if the meaning is changed by Capitalization one should want to find out why. It might change the way one views God. But those are my thoughts…

The Bible is silent on lots of things we do and say, And I could see if one is trying to add to the word but that’s not what I am doing. I’m trying to find out if translators have taken away from the word.

But again let every man be convinced in His own :heart: heart.

75

Yes, in this case of the dressing room( trying ideals on) you got it!…..a Doctor and a Police office don’t do most of the same things…one enforces the rules, and the other tries to make you feel better. And they have different names

76

First of all the Holy Ghost was poured out before and after water baptism “In the Name of Jesus Christ” Acts 19- John the Baptist’s disciples were re-baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, then Paul laid his hands upon them and they were filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 10:44-49 - The Gentiles received the Holy Ghost (first time of a Gentile out pouring) first, then were baptized in The Name of the Lord.
The term Holy Ghost was never mentioned in the Old Testament (KJV) , but Holy Spirit was used, which I personally like the contrast… Holy Spirit which of course is God- in the old testament, God moved upon holy men of God. When God was manifest in flesh as the Son of God, He was called Emmanuel which is God with us. At Calvary when Jesus died He gave up the ghost- shortly after that the Holy Ghost came on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter2) and He is now Christ in us the hope of glory !!
One definition of ghost is: the spirit of a departed human being- which really makes sense since Jesus had to die for Him to give us His Spirit and fill us individually.

77

I don’t see that- There would be no need for change in the word if that were the case…sense u are basically saying the Spirit of the son, and Spirit of the father are identical in all ways. Yet Jesus said He came not to do His own will, but His father who sent Him.

If their Spirits are the same then their functions would be too, right? One can sum it up and say its all done By God….yet the question would remain -how and by what means or conditions. For the Rock and Cloud did not have the same function in the Baptism in the red sea, did they? Hence, who was represented by the Rock and who by the cloud?

Does not the Father have to reveal the Son? And the son reveals the Father???

Hence in my opinion considering my speculations-The Spirit’s Goal may be the same but not their functions.

If their goals and functions are the same then wouldn’t that be oneness theology?

As for Tyndale, He never left any notes why sometimes He used ghost and other times He used Spirit.

Someone said something earlier that I was writing but had to delete….Jesus’s Spirit as Man….now try this on…what happened to His Spirit as Man when He went back to the Father, describe it?

78

I really don’t understand why this is an issue. Diet Pepsi Max → Pepsi Max → Pepsi Zero Sugar, all diet Pepsi. Kentucky Fried Chicken → KFC, same chicken. Uncle Ben’s → Ben’s Original, same rice. Dunkin’ Donuts → Dunkin’, same thing. I think you get the point. Over time, names change. People used to call the largest wrestling organization the WWF. Now it is the WWE. Same thing, different name. The same is true with the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. It’s simple linguistics.

Peter

79

All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16) means the entire Bible is divinely inspired, authoritative, and profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. This concept (Greek: theopneustos ) indicates the words originated from God, not human will, making them essential for equipping believers for every good work ai

Guess thats why one should do our best to make sure the correct word is being used.

Words carry meaning…if we remove a word we can change the meaning.

What things mean to people determines their actions…

80

There is a difference between kfc , and Kentucky Fried Chicken…thats why they changed it…Even Abram and Abraham…Jesus Christ vs Christ Jesus…

The and thou.
If you believe its simple linguistics prove William Tyndales put that in His notes…otherwise not so simple