Thanks for your fantastic replies.
I don’t have time to give the response they deserve right now but I promise I will as soon as I do.
Hope you’re having a lovely weekend.
@Blindwatchmaker, thanks for your response. What keeps you from faith in God? I’m just a curious writer, that’s all.
I’ve never heard of compatibilism. Please explain it a little more to me.
Why do you think that the choice has to be completely free?
Start where the Bible starts. In Ephesians 2:1-10, Paul starts with the fact that we’re all dead to God (verses 1-3), God makes us alive through the new birth by grace through faith (verse 4-9), and then God enables us to serve him with resulting good works (verse 10). Nothing in that process, which is 100% of God’s doing, is a “free choice.” We can’t choose him when we are “dead” to him.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Take your time.
“Never rush a miracle man, you rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles”
(Miracle Max)
KP,
Thanks again for your wonderful reply earlier.
You’ve taken the map and made it yours—overlaying your own metaphors and insights, your own lived reflections. I really appreciate you steering the discussion to the mechanisms affecting belief, and how emotions often play a role in that, deep down.
And yes—I think the idea that we sometimes “stack the deck” emotionally is valid. It happens. We all know it happens. But that doesn’t mean we do it consciously, or that it’s even something we can see in the moment, let alone control.
A close friend of mine is a psychotherapist, and I’ve had long conversations with her about this exact thing—how emotions shape belief without us even realizing it. She works with clients who are trying to figure out why they see the world the way they do, and she’s told me how often those perceptions trace back to emotional patterns formed years earlier. The kicker? Even once someone becomes aware of those patterns, they’re still incredibly hard to change. Not because the person doesn’t want to—but because those emotional reflexes live in parts of the brain that don’t respond to logic or willpower. She always says therapy only really works when it accepts that reality. You can’t reason your way out of a gut-level reaction. You have to work with the architecture, not against it.
This is all to say that the emotional factors impacting our beliefs are just as outside our control as any of the rest of the process (in some cases even more so.)
You mentioned childhood fears of monsters in the closet—it’s a lovely metaphor. And you’re right: kids invent protective beliefs like magical bedcovers or safety zones at the edge of the mattress. But the key is that these beliefs are involuntary. They arise as coping mechanisms in response to fear. They’re not chosen in defiance of reality—they’re born from a young mind doing its best to make sense of the world.
So yes, emotion plays a role in how beliefs form. Sometimes it distorts. Sometimes it illuminates. But it doesn’t equal sabotage. And it certainly doesn’t justify any kind of moral reckoning. It’s part of the data stream—not an enemy of truth, just one of its messier companions. This is why I think we need to be very cautious when assigning moral responsibility for where someone lands. (I’m not saying that’s what you’re suggesting—but I know some reading this will be thinking that moral responsibility, or “culpability” as Johann put it, may be found in the emotional responses that might influence our cognition below the surface.) That strikes me as morally absurd—as absurd as blaming someone for being startled by a loud noise or revolted by a particular smell.
And that’s why even if I did have some buried emotional aversion to the idea of being created and ruled by a supreme being—even if that shaped how I processed theological claims—it still wouldn’t make me morally culpable for the beliefs that result. Influence isn’t intent. Emotional weight doesn’t equal rebellion. And unless someone can show that I could have believed otherwise—just by deciding to—I don’t see how blame makes any sense.
Again, forgive me if I’ve misrepresented your view or implied that you hold positions you don’t. I just know from experience that many people do take that view, so I wanted to speak to anyone else who might be reading along.
Thanks again for the generous conversation and the good will even in the face of disagreement.
More soon,
Jon
Thanx @Blindwatchmaker
I think I’m going to take a day of rest from Spelunking, but I will be recharged to continue our descent tomorow.
Just as an aside…
I happened to run across a paper I wrote on “The Development of Beliefs”, 10 years ago TODAY. I found that coincidence interesting, if not. auspicious. I may decide to share it with you at some point, (on the other channel since it is longer than 5000 characters), but I have not decided if it is worthy of even private publication. Being from 10 years ago, I have grown substantially in that time, so it all probabably does not ring as true today as it did then. Still, it is insight into how a person 10 years younger than I might see the topic, so it may be helpful for your project.
If it is relevant to you, “Happy Father’s Day”
KP
That’s very kind K, thanks.
I would love to read your paper.
The other channel has a place set aside just for it!
And happy Father’s Day right back if appropriate.
J
I believe we are responsible for our beliefs - we can’t blame someone else for them - and therefore I’d say we choose them.
@blindwatchmaker
I appreciate your honesty, patience, diligence, sincerity, and the transparency you have demonstrated in all of your discussions with me. I know you view these values as having a different genesis than I do, but I sure appreciate interacting with one who holds them as they are, to me, imperfect reflections of the true source of pure Righteousness. (Whom I’ve met BTW)
As Christians, we have been assigned the occupation, and privilege, of engaging our culture with The Truth with which we have been entrusted. We are ambassadors of that Truth and, like many earthly ambassadors, we have not been assigned this responsibility based on our individual qualifications for the post. (that’s a different conversation.) Often our counterculture responsibilities are difficult to bear, but sometimes the job is quite pleasant. Either way, The Truth is never moved, damaged, or even challenged by any form of opposition or inquiry, but rather The Truth is noted for how it holds up under strong fire. We welcome any-and-all opposition as a testimony to the strength and unassailable resilience of The Kingdom into which we have been granted citizenship. There is simply no power that does not cower at the unimaginable might of our King. But even when our stance for The Truth assails us with conflict, we maintain a strong belief in two things, The battle of Truth is The Lord’s (it’s His, not ours to win), and we do not wrestle against humans (flesh and blood). I am honored to discuss details of The Kingdom with you for as long as you allow me.
Engaging our culture, in the clothing and deportment of our Savior, is the greatest deployment anyone could ask for. Your honesty, patience, and sincerity make my deployment enjoyable, and I appreciate it.
KP