Embracing ignorance in order to force literalism is a hallmark of the issue at hand.
Some people can absolutely marvel at the complexity of Life, while at once cling to and demand the most simple explanations without question.
I think sin is anything that displeases God and does not symbolize anything else. I believe that the irreducible truth is that where there is sin, there will always eventually be death.
I believe the bigger lesson here is not about symbolic or literal truth, but about the metaphysical connection of sin and physical death in this world God has created. Death was not created by God. He did not put a second law of thermodynamics into the universe. Sin- Independance from God, caused physical and spiritual death to happen and one role of all religion, and especially Christianity, is to redeem man from death.
Are you satisfied that we only need to know that there was an origin of man, and that how he is now is based on no particular history. Man dies now and that has nothing to do with anything. It is just the way of thingsā¦ has nothing to do with literal disobedience. Disobedience to a personal God or to a creative process? Donāt take God literally, because He (it) is just a concept. I get much more to hang my faith upon by considering Genisis to be historic and literal.
Just jumping in hereā¦.
Churches 
exist within a broader culture and American culture is becoming more anti intellectual and also anti democratic. Personally Iād go so far as to say that a bigger problem isnāt that many in todayās society have some sort of problem with education or the well educated but rather that thereās some sort of retreat and regression into a world of spectacles and entertainment and sound bites and feelings and emotions.
Another problem is that I think what some people perceive as anti intellectualism is the latest form of class warfare heating up. College has become increasingly necessary for many fields and less accessible to many. Upward mobility is not part of the new normal in the USA and that alone is going to spark class conflict.
I donāt think looking at the church in isolation from the large society is the best approachā¦
No lesser person than William lane Craig agrees that Christians are lazy, not reading about their faith, learding what those hostile to it believe and how to answer them.
Two sites in one.
Wintery knight a good source for scientific arguments for God and Christianity and
Wiliam lane Craigs site Reasonablefaith.
If logic and reasoning interests you this is your site.
āI use to want to save the worls. Now I just want to leave the room with a little bit of dignity.ā
Death existed before the fall. Not all the creatures feasted on nuts, fruits, and grass. They were not made to. The Bible does not speak of such drastic changes. And logic would dictate that if creation was born to seed, it would also decrease. Otherwise it would overfill. All of Creation is a perfect recycling system. It always has been.
āDEATHā on the other hand is an inability to change, grow, evolve, thrive, or bear fruit that lasts. Through THIS certain cycle of repetition that you (and all creation) cannot breakā¦ these patterns of behavior that you hold. Hold in a holding patternā¦ Maintaining to your own detrimentā¦ Detriment because they lead to consequence that cause you to suffer and yet you persistā¦ and yet still you hold on to themā¦ Because of THIS cycle, youā¦doā¦notā¦liveā¦ Nothing does.
You cannot live. You arenāt even alive now. Because living things grow, and you donāt. Because you are going in circles like a broken robot. You hold true to misery, to a pattern that leads to destruction. Self destruction. The destruction of the world.
No expression of free will. You (all humanity, all creation) are trapped.
Real death is being a puppet. It is also hell. Because you know you want better but you canāt reach it. So you continue to suffer. While seeing all the freedom that you donāt have, and the joy that comes with it, all around you.
That person over there that has great JOY in their heart. Joy in life. They flourish. They have a job they enjoy. Or they have a loving reltionship like nothing you have ever seen. They have success that you donāt. They have a legacy that they will leave behind them. And you see all of THAT, and you hate them for itā¦ HATE. Loathe with ENVYā¦ Becauae you want that thing so badā¦ BUT youā¦ Youā¦ No matter what you do, it just wont come to you. You canāt find itā¦or make it happen. It just wont grow for you.
So you think, I will take it, steal it from them. i will plot and scheme and conquerā¦ I will kill for it.
And in so doing, there is death. You destroy life, joy, and all of those wonderful things you wanted. Lost.
Over and over again.
Ironically, those things are put there in your sight just out of your reach on purpose for a reaaon. Like sunlight that causes the plant to stretch itās leaves up and outward to recieve that light, which it does. Becauae God does not with hold good things from His children.
God put that there to motivate you to figure it out. It is there to make you ask, What is the lesson I have not learned? What keeps me from being alive?
Christ said, āLet the dead bury the dead and follow me.ā Those who appear alive but are aleady dead, white washed tombs with no life inside them. Let them, the dead, bury the dead. And then, āFollow me.ā
Because Christ is the Way to Eternal Life. Life that does not end. Life that flourishes. Real life.
He broke the cycle to give humanity and the whole world life. Everlasting life. But you have to wake up and stop running in circles. Big ones and small ones. Stop chasing your tail. Stop waging wars you cannot win. Otherwise, what are you but a puppet?
āDEATHā
God created humans to have free will, not to be puppets. Thus how could God be satisfied until creation itself can come to life and thrive and bear fruit as it was meant to.
A world destined for judgement is already dead.
The tree that does not bear fruit is cursed to whither and die. The field that bears no wheat is leveled and uprooted so the farmer can seed it again. That maybe this time something will grow.
My opinion of course.
That is not what the bible says,
Genesis 129 Then God said, āI give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the groundāeverything that has the breath of life in itāI give every green plant for food.ā And it was so.
Romans 5:12-21
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
And 1cor15:22,For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Death did not exist for animals and man untill Adam fell.
You are confusing death with death. Two different forms of death. I was quite clear when I quoted Christ, let the dead bury the dead. And explained how a breathing person can also be dead.
The animals in our world never sinned. And yet they die. How do you account for that?
Where is the scripture that says death did not exist before the fall for the animals? Or plants? Or anything? Are you saying it was impossible to kill bugs? Or rabbits?
Didnāt the plants die?
Also, what about the creatures of the water? Didnāt the fish die? What were the sharks and carnivore fish eating?
You are misunderstanding scripture and the nature of sin. How else do you explain Ezekial 18:20 which clearly says,
The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parentās sins, and the parent will not be punished for the childās sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness
Sin entered the world. But it is not inherited. Not the sin mentioned in Ezekial. Unless SIN is different from sin. Just as DEATH is different from death.
Maybe Romans is speaking in general terms. Adam introduced sin to the world. Sin introduced death. Because the wage of sin is death, meaning the justice system executes sinners aka criminals. Or the person who wrote Romans got it wrong, itās heresy. Or the people who translated it got something wrong.
You can pick whatever reasoning you want. But the big question is, are you dead or alive? Has God brought you to life? Or are you still repeating the sins of your fathers? Are you still chasing your tail? Or are you serving God? Are you baring fruit that will last?
Please re read genesis 1:29, it clearly says all living things have every green thing for food, to everything that has the breath of life.
Plants , insects and fish donot have the breath of life and so are not part of the creation excempt from eating flesh.
Also only humans have souls, animals donāt, thats why following the flood permishion was given to eat animals.
Yes sin is not inherited, but the bias towards sin is.
The fall gave Adam and all his descendants a bias away from God and towards sin.
I did not comment on this passage.
You acknowledge that people die as a result of Adams sin, but you do not comprehend why people are estranged from God.
It is the inherited consquence of Adams fall.
I and the bible do not say that people have inherited Adams sin.
But we have inherited the consequence of his fall.
That is alienation from God and a bias towards sinning.
If you say so dearā¦ But if that is true, why does Genesis 4:6-7 say
| 6And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? | ××Ö·×Ö¼Ö„Ö¹××Ö¶×Ø ×Ö°×Ö¹×ÖøÖ× ×Ö¶×־קÖøÖ×Ö“× ×ÖøÖ×Ö¼Öø× ×ÖøÖ£×ØÖø× ×ÖøÖ×Ö° ×Ö°×ÖøÖ×Ö¼Öø× × Öøֽפְ×Ö„×Ö¼ פÖø× Ö¶Ö½××Öø: | |
|---|---|---|
| 7Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it." | ××Ö²×Ö¤×Ö¹× ×Ö“×Ö¾×ŖÖ¼Öµ××Ö“××Ö ×©×Ö°×ÖµÖ×Ŗ ×Ö°×Ö“×Ö ×Ö¹Ö£× ×ŖÖµ××Ö“Ö×× ×ַפֶּÖ×ŖÖ·× ×Ö·×Ö¼ÖøÖ£××Ŗ ×ØÖ¹×ÖµÖׄ ×Ö°×Öµ×Ö¶ÖØ××ÖøÖ ×Ŗְּש×Ö£×ּקÖø×ŖÖ×Ö¹ ×Ö°×Ö·×ŖÖ¼ÖøÖ× |
(From
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8168/jewish/Chapter-4.htm#v6)
This also seems to imply sin is something that can be avoided.
We have to assume that Adam and his children were instructed in how to make offerings to God.
From the passage where God made garments for Adam and Eve out of animal skin, we assume that offerings involved animal sacrifice.
If this is correct then Cain disobeyed this in making an offering of the fruits of the soil.
GOD was incredible caring, he spoke to Cain and Cain ignored him. Plotting and carrying out the murder of his brother.
1cor10: 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted5 beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
It was true for Cain as it is true for us, we like Cain must want to not to sin.
There is no magic, we have to turn away from that temptation.
Cain needed to repent of his ignoring howcto make an offering to God and to think of something other than attacking Able.
That Cain was in this position shows what Ive been saying.
There is w bias in us towards sin.
April Fools.
The minute you start a post with that, youāve lost the power of persuasion. jis sayin.
My Bible says that death comes from sin, from not pleasing a holy God, by acting independently of Him, by ignoring and not thanking Him. This is out of the field of natural science, so it is not provable or disprovable by science. It is a spiritual truth and comes by revelation. Physical as well as spiritual death followed Adam and Eveās sin and did not come before they sinned. God is not the author of Death in any form and His last enemy will be death (1 Cor.15:25-26) All skeltons (fossils) have to have been laid down since Adam and Eve. This fits into a young earth scheme of things. Fossils found on mountain tops were deposited there since the world-wide Noach flood.
I am not going to say what is not true just to convince a person who is not a believer in truth. I stand by the word of God, however unconvincing it is to a non-believer. The whole of scripture stands by the fact that God is not the author of evil and that death is the final evil, which God will defeat.
So how did Able know what to use in making an offering to God?
I await your explanation.