How Tall Was Jesus? Does It Matter What He Looked Like?

Theology
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That member claimed to be a member of Christ’s “Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”, but he is a Lutheran. Lutheranism is a major branch of Protestantism.

There’s no such thing as the “Roman” Catholic Church. There’s only the Christian (Catholic) Church, which is comprised of over 20 Liturgical Rites, of which the Roman/Latin is only one. There is also the Melkite, Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Alexandrian, Ruthenian, etc., and they are ALL just as **Christian (Catholic) as the rest.

The 7 Deuterocanonical books were removed by the Rabbinical school, led by Rabbi Akiva ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137 at Jabneh in the 2nd century. This was after the death and Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus—and after the destruction of the Temple. The mantle of Authority was no longer with the Jews, as Jesus transferred Authority to His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23). The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Rabbi Akiva was the SAME guy who proclaimed a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD).

The OT wasn’t decided upon at Trent. The entire Canon of Scripture was officially closed—in part, due to the deleting of books by Protestants.

This means that a FALSE prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba) was responsible for editing the Canon in a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Israel.

There are almost 150 references to those books in the NT. For example:

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 –“What you hate, do not do to others”.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 –“Lord of heaven and earth”.

Matt. 7:16, 20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – “The fruit discloses the cultivation”.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

and so on…

There was NO Canon of Scripture (Bible) until it was compiled and declared by the 300 year-old Church, the Christian (Catholic) Church, led by the Holy Spirit who decided which books belonged in the Canon and which books did not. Prior to this – there were MANY individual canons (lists) – but NONE that was agreed upon by the whole Church.

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the Canon was first formally identified—all seventy-three books.

11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393) .

4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, “But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this Canon”. There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the Canon.

14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the Canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century.

So, the Christian (Catholic) Church didn’t “add” to Scripture. It included ALL of the books that Jesus and the Apostles studied from and referenced about 150 times in the NT.

The Old Testament Canon was not closed until LONG after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In the first century, it was an OPEN Canon. The OT Canon that the Christian (Catholic) Church adheres to was the SAME Canon that Jesus and the Apostles studied from. This can be easily demonstrated by the over 150 references, allusions and quotes from the Septuagint OT in the New Testament.

The Canon of the OT that Protestants adhere to is a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon that was decided upon by a non-authoritative, POST Temple rabbinical school.

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You’re running on fumes, @Soul, your argument just drove in a circle and called it a destination.

J.

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No, you’re denying history.

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The private audience between Pius XII and Fr. Romualdo Migliorini, O.S.M., Valtorta’s spiritual director, Father Corrado Berti, O.S.M., professor of dogmatic and sacramental theology at the Marianum Pontifical Faculty of Theology in Rome, and Father Andrea Cecchin, Prior of the Order of the Servants of Mary, on February 26, 1948, was historically documented the next day, February 27, 1948, in the Vatican’s newspaper L’Osservatore Romano.

Pius XII had been given some months earlier a typewritten copy of Valtorta’s still unpublished work. The above-mentioned priests reported that Pius XII told them at the audience, “Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion about its origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand." And, no again, that was not an “informal remark”. Those three ecclesiastical eyewitnesses were of distinguished repute, and it may be worth mentioning that in a court of law in the United States, only two eyewitnesses are necessary to convict someone with the death penalty. This command of Pope Pius XII in front of three witnesses made it just as binding as a command in writing, according to the 1918 Code of Canon Law, which was in force in 1948. Cardinal Edouard Gagnon (who had a Doctorate in Theology and taught canon law for ten years at the Grand Seminary) writing to the Maria Valtorta Research Center from the Vatican on October 31, 1987, referred to Pope Pius XII’s action as: “The type of official Imprimatur granted before witnesses by the Holy Father in 1948.” It is also of significance that Cardinal Gagnon was known as a specialist of censorship, a theme for which he had written a reference book in 1945: The Censorship of Books (Éditions Fides, Montreal, 222 pages). The word imprimatur merely means “it may be printed” (in Latin: “let it be printed”). Here the Pope went further: he commanded them, “Publish this work just as it is.” Furthermore, the contents were deemed acceptable and very good to his judgment, for he said: “Publish this work just as it is.” Pope Leo X stated at the Fifth Lateran Council: “When it is a question of prophetic revelations, the Pope is the sole judge!”

As I said, in 1949, the Holy Office forbade the publication of the Work, threatening to place it on the Index in case of eventual publication. Long story short, in 1959, her writings were published, and so on January 6, 1960, the Holy Office placed the first edition of The Poem of the Man-God on the Index of Forbidden Books. The L’Osservatore Romano, in an anonymous article for that day, justified the aforesaid condemnation, not for doctrinal errors, but for the offense of disobedience by publishing the writings. But in truth there was no disobedience, because Pope Pius XII, in 1948, had said “Publish [it]”; and only the Holy Office—which was subject to him—had strangely prohibited its publication. Since then, subsequent editions of The Poem of the Man-God have been published in multiple languages.

No, I said the 2025 statement by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) lacks the following:

(I) An explanation for why The Poem of the Man-God “cannot be considered to have a supernatural origin”.

(II) Acknowledgment of whether or not they have even reviewed the proof in support of Maria Valtorta’s writings having a supernatural origin.

If informed Catholics can present credible evidence that a statement is erroneous, they are not committing a sin by rejecting it. I do not reject the authority of the DDF, but rather challenge the validity of the specific conclusion in this case, considering it to be an erroneous judgment, because there is compelling evidence that Maria Valtorta’s Work has a supernatural origin.

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Out of the 20 liturgical rites of the catholic church
I belong to East Syriac (chaldean) rite. @Soul
And yes I have read sirach Baruch, psalms 151 etc.. Amazing I must say, they taught me a lot
My fav is 1 and 2 Maccabees

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You are running on fumes @Soul

The canon of the Old Testament was not open in the first century. Jesus treated it as closed and authoritative. He rebuked the Sadducees with “You do not know the Scriptures” (Matthew 22:29), indicating a fixed set.

He read, quoted, fulfilled, and taught from specific texts known to His hearers. The apostles argued from Moses and the Prophets, not from later writings like Wisdom or Judith.
Apostolic speech is soaked in Scripture, but not in the Deuterocanon.

In short, your claim that Protestants follow a canon invented by a false rabbi is historically false and theologically hollow. The 39 books are grounded in the Hebrew Scriptures Christ Himself used and fulfilled. The Church did not determine Scripture, it recognized what God had spoken. The New Testament never quotes the Deuterocanonical books as Scripture. Jesus never used them, the apostles never taught them, and the early Jewish-Christian believers never canonized them. The canon is not a construct of Rome, it is the result of divine action in history, confirmed by the Word-made-flesh who walked through the Law and the Prophets, not Baruch and Tobit.

Sorry.

J.

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Oh no brother Johann there is something more deeper here, something mysterious, something controversial.. Should we discuss about this…is this gonna be mysterious.. Yes.. Can we trace it’s history,.. Yes we have to see it’s roots., it’s gonna have a rustic smell.

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Not so @Samuel_23

Books Jesus Quotes or References in the Gospels:
The Law (Torah – 5 books)
Genesis – Matthew 19:4–6 (creation of male and female)

Exodus – Mark 7:10 (honor father and mother), Luke 20:37 (burning bush)

Leviticus – Matthew 5:43 (love your neighbor), Matthew 8:4

Numbers – John 3:14 (bronze serpent)

Deuteronomy – Matthew 4:4, 7, 10 (Jesus quotes it repeatedly in the wilderness)

The Prophets
Isaiah – Luke 4:17–21 (reads the scroll in synagogue), Matthew 13:14–15

Jeremiah – Matthew 21:13 (House of prayer vs. den of thieves), Matthew 27:9

Daniel – Matthew 24:15 (abomination of desolation)

Hosea – Matthew 9:13 (I desire mercy, not sacrifice)

Jonah – Matthew 12:39–41 (sign of Jonah)

Zechariah – Matthew 26:31 (strike the shepherd)

The Writings (Ketuvim)
Psalms – Most quoted book by Jesus; e.g., Psalm 22 in Matthew 27:46 (My God, My God…), Luke 20:42–43 (The LORD said to my Lord)

Proverbs – Indirectly referenced (e.g., wise vs. foolish builders in Matthew 7:24–27 reflects Proverbs-style wisdom)

1 Chronicles – Matthew 23:35 (Zechariah son of Berechiah, possibly a conflation with 2 Chronicles 24)

Books Never Quoted by Jesus
Jesus never quotes or directly references any of the Deuterocanonical books, including:

Tobit

Judith

Wisdom

Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)

Baruch

1 and 2 Maccabees

Additions to Daniel (Susanna, Bel and the Dragon)

Additions to Esther

These books appear in the Septuagint but lack citation or endorsement by Christ. Their absence in His teaching is theologically significant, especially given His frequent appeal to “It is written” and “Have you not read…”

Summary
Jesus quotes or references nearly every section of the Tanakh, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, as the inspired, authoritative Word of God. The 39 books He references align with the Hebrew Bible and the Protestant canon, not the expanded Roman Catholic canon defined centuries later.

J.

1 Like
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I see ok thank you Johann sir :saluting_face:

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After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD–this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel ) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an “official” council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see over a hundred references to them. For example:

  • Matt.. 7:12—Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15—“What you hate, do not do to others”.

  • Matt. 11:25—Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18—“Lord of heaven and earth”.

  • Matt. 7:16, 20—Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6— “The fruit discloses the cultivation”.

  • Heb 11:35—Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

  • Eph. 6:13-17—in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

  • Luke 1:42—Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

and so on…

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD).

So, the Old Testament Canon was not closed until long after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In the first century, it was an OPEN Canon. The OT Canon that the Christian (Catholic) Church adheres to was the SAME Canon that Jesus and the Apostles studied from. This can be easily demonstrated by the over 100 references, allusions and quotes from the Septuagint OT in the New Testament.

Your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba) .

This is who Protestants have chosen to follow instead of Christ’s Church, on whom He bestowed supreme earthly authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

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Your claim that Jesus and the apostles quoted the seven Deuterocanonical books collapses under scrutiny. Jesus never once quoted from Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Baruch, Wisdom, or Maccabees with the divine formula, “It is written,” or “Have you not read…”—phrases He consistently used to signal scriptural authority. He referenced the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Luke 24:44), a tripartite canon aligning with the 39-book Hebrew Scriptures, not the expanded Septuagint later used in Catholic tradition.

Yes, the Septuagint was known and used, but it was never uniformly bound, and its contents varied by region. Presence in the Septuagint is not proof of inspiration, only canonical status matters, and Jesus didn’t confer it on those extra books.

The examples you cite, Tobit 4:15 and Matthew 7:12, Sirach 27:6 and Matthew 7:16, prove nothing.

They are ethical parallels, not citations. Paul quotes pagan poets in Acts 17:28 and 1 Corinthians 15:33. That doesn’t canonize Greek philosophy. Similarity does not equal scriptural authority. Hebrews 11:35 alludes to martyrdom like 2 Maccabees, but never calls it Scripture. It’s a historical echo, not doctrinal endorsement.

As for Jamnia, the rabbinic discussions there didn’t “remove” books, they reaffirmed what was already normative among Jews, including the canon Jesus used. Josephus, writing before 100 AD, listed 22 inspired books, the same content as today’s 39 once Hebrew scrolls are separated. That list excludes the Deuterocanon.

Calling Rabbi Akiva a “false prophet” who led a “false canon” misrepresents the facts. Protestants didn’t adopt his canon, they preserved the canon of Christ and His apostles. The Church didn’t give us the Word, it recognized what God had already spoken. If a book wasn’t treated as Scripture by Jesus, it doesn’t belong in the canon.

Your appeal to Matthew 16:18 and ecclesial authority misunderstands the passage. Christ’s Church stands on His Word, not on later additions. Authority to bind and loose (Matt. 18:18) never meant authority to expand divine revelation.

The 39-book Old Testament Jesus used is the same one Protestants defend, not post-Christ, but Christ’s. It wasn’t Akiva’s decision, it was the Messiah’s silence that sealed the question. If Jesus never quoted a book as Scripture, neither should we.

Thanks.

J.

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Ok I like where the debate is going.. I also want to join but I’m busy
See ya tomorrow
Peace
Sam

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Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

The 7 Deuterocanonical Books were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon that existed prior to and after the life of Christ. They were only ejected after Jesus walked the earth because of the influence they were having on the Dispersed Jews who were converting to Christianity.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD).

So, the Old Testament Canon was not closed until long after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In the first century, it was an OPEN Canon. The OT Canon that the Christian (Catholic) Church adheres to was the SAME Canon that Jesus and the Apostles studied from. This can be easily demonstrated by the many references, allusions and quotes from the Septuagint OT in the New Testament.

Your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba) .

The Christian (Catholic) Church didn’t “add” to Scripture. It included ALL of the books that Jesus and the Apostles studied from and referenced numerous times in the NT .

The Jewish Canon of Scripture was NOT yet closed during the life of Jesus and the Apostles. As I indicated before, the Deuterocanonicals were jettisoned by a non-authoritative rabbinical body, headed by a FALSE prophet (Akiva) AFTER Jesus had given full Authority to His Church and ascended to Heaven.

There were MANY individual “canons” for the first 300 years of the Church. There was NO official or agreed-upon canon until 382 – and that canon was declared by the Church, who was the only entity with the God-given Authority to do so. See below.

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the Canon was first formally identified—all seventy-three (not sixty-six) books.

11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393) .

4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, “But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this Canon”. There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the Canon.

14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the Canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century

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That’s also true @soul.. Yes the Jews reffered to it..but now I’m confused u and Johann are putting equally strong posts…if I had a time machine I would go back in time and see which books were used by Jesus, did Jesus imply to deuterocanonical, time machine would solve the problem.. Means we have to visualise what was happening we cannot resolve this problem with 20th century eyes.. That’s why I smell rustic

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Your entire argument hinges on a revisionist claim: that the seven Deuterocanonical books were part of the Jewish canon in the time of Christ and only later removed by a false prophet. That is historically false, theologically unsound, and biblically unsubstantiated.

First, Jesus never once cited a Deuterocanonical book with the authority He ascribed to Scripture. He quoted Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Isaiah, Daniel, Hosea, Jonah, Zechariah, and others, but not once did He quote Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, or Maccabees. Not with “It is written,” not with “Have you not read,” and not with any marker of divine authority. His silence speaks volumes. If these books were “part of the same canon Jesus and the apostles used,” then where are the quotes?

Second, the canon wasn’t “open” in the way you suggest. The phrase “open canon” is misleading. The tripartite Hebrew canon, Law, Prophets, Writings, was already functioning as Scripture in Jesus’ day (Luke 24:44). Josephus, writing in the first century, lists 22 books (identical in content to the Protestant 39), and explicitly rejects later writings as uninspired (Against Apion 1.8). That’s before Akiva, before Jamnia, and before Bar Kokhba.

Third, the Council of Jamnia (c. 90–100 AD) did not invent the canon or “eject” books. It recognized what was already normatively received. And your appeal to Rabbi Akiva collapses under its own weight. Protestants do not follow Akiva, they follow Christ, who never cited the Deuterocanon. Your logic implies we must reject any canon a false teacher touches, but you don’t apply that standard to Church history when forgeries, heresies, and political power shaped later councils.

Fourth, yes, the Septuagint was widely used, but presence in the Septuagint does not confer canonicity. The Septuagint also included books like 3 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, and the Prayer of Manasseh, none of which are accepted by the Catholic Church. Usage is not equal to authority. The apostles quoted from the Septuagint selectively, only when it aligned with the Hebrew Scriptures. They never cited the extra books as Scripture. Paul quotes Epimenides and Menander (Acts 17:28, 1 Cor 15:33)-that doesn’t canonize Greek poets.

Fifth, the claim that the “Catholic canon” is the same as the one used by Jesus is demonstrably false. The Deuterocanon was never affirmed in any Jewish community as Scripture. It was debated, disputed, and excluded by the very people entrusted with preserving the oracles of God (Romans 3:2). Jesus submitted to that Hebrew canon. You’re asking Christians to accept as Scripture what Jesus did not.

Finally, the canon was not closed at Trent because Protestants rejected books. It was closed at Trent in reaction to the Reformation, to dogmatize an expanded list never formally imposed in the early Church. The earliest fathers (Athanasius, Jerome) rejected or questioned the Deuterocanon. The Church wavered for centuries until the 16th century locked it in.

So no, Protestants don’t follow Akiva. They follow the Christ who quoted Scripture as fulfilled and sufficient, never needing additions. The canon Christ used is the canon His Church must defend. His silence over the Deuterocanon is a theological verdict. That silence is decisive.

Where to now? You are going in circles, no offense to you.

J.

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The Jewish Canon of Scripture was NOT yet closed during the life of Jesus and the Apostles. As I indicated before, the 7 Deuterocanonicals (Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom (of Solomon), Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch) were jettisoned by a non-authoritative rabbinical body, headed by a FALSE prophet (Akiva)—also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD)— AFTER Jesus had given full Authority to His Christian (Catholic) Church and ascended to Heaven.

There were MANY individual “canons” for the first 300 years of the Christian (Catholic) Church. There was NO official or agreed-upon canon until 382–and that canon was compiled and declared by the Christian (Catholic) Church, who was the only entity with the God-given Authority to do so, led by the Holy Spirit. See below.

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the Canon was first formally identified—all seventy-three (not sixty-six) books.

11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, “But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this Canon”. There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the Canon.

14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the Canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century—all seventy-three books not sixty-six. Those seventy-three books include the 7 Deuterocanonicals referenced numerous times by Jesus and the apostles: Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament.

Your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba) .

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Already been addressed, you don’t read, and you are really resorting to circular arguments.

Anything else?

J.

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It would appear that further conversation would be rather fruitless here.

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No, you don’t read.

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  1. The Jewish Canon was closed in functional reality by the time of Christ.
    Jesus and the apostles quoted from a fixed body of books, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Luke 24:44). That threefold division mirrors the 22-book Hebrew canon (which equals the 39 Protestant books once separated) noted by Josephus (Against Apion 1.8) in the first century, long before Akiva or Jamnia. He explicitly states there were no more than these inspired books and that Jews did not treat others with equal authority. That’s not “open,” that’s closed.

  2. Jesus never quoted the Deuterocanon as Scripture. Not once.
    Not Tobit, not Judith, not Sirach, not Wisdom, not 1 or 2 Maccabees. Christ quoted, taught, and rebuked with “It is written” and “Have you not read”-but always from the Hebrew canon. You claim the Church used those books; Christ didn’t. That alone should make every follower of Jesus pause.

  3. Appeal to Akiva is a smokescreen.
    Protestants don’t “follow Akiva,” they follow Jesus, who never gave authority to the books Akiva rejected, because Jesus never treated them as Scripture to begin with. The false messiah claim of Akiva doesn’t prove inspiration for the Deuterocanon, nor does it stain the Hebrew canon Jesus used and affirmed.

  4. The Church didn’t create the canon, it recognized the Word God had already spoken.
    The councils you cite, Rome (382), Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), and Pope Innocent (405)-were all regional councils or local letters, not ecumenical councils with binding authority. They affirmed the canon in practice, not infallibly. That didn’t happen until Trent (1546)-which was a reactionary decree, not an apostolic one. For over a thousand years, Church Fathers like Jerome, Athanasius, and Rufinus rejected or doubted the Deuterocanon. Even Cardinal Cajetan (Luther’s opponent) didn’t accept them.

  5. The early Church had “many canons” precisely because the Spirit had not led them to finality yet.
    That doesn’t mean anything with a fanbase was inspired. Gnostic gospels had wide use too. Popularity is not inspiration. Apostolic use is. And the apostles never used the Deuterocanon with divine authority. The Holy Spirit didn’t whisper at Hippo, He thundered through Christ and His apostles, who never used those books as Scripture.

  6. Christ gave authority to His Church, but not to override His example.
    If the canon Christ used, quoted, and fulfilled excluded those books, no later Church decision has authority to reverse Him. The Church stands under Scripture, not above it. Authority to “bind and loose” does not include authority to rewrite what God has spoken.

  7. The 66 books of the Protestant canon are not a “truncation,” they’re a return to Christ’s canon.
    The apostles quoted, reasoned, argued, and wrote from the Hebrew canon, relying on Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. No NT author calls Baruch “Scripture.” None build doctrine on Tobit. They didn’t quote 2 Maccabees like they did Isaiah or Genesis. That’s not accidental, that’s providential.

So no, Protestants didn’t follow Akiva. They followed the Canon of Christ, not the Councils of Carthage. And if Jesus never treated the Deuterocanon as Scripture, neither should you. Christ’s silence over those books is the loudest verdict on their status. If they didn’t flow from His mouth, they don’t belong in His Book.

Stay on topic and don’t deflect.

J.