Who is the Holy Spirit @Gospel?
J.
Thanks again i would love to hear more and to learn more about this. I wasnt intersted in even learning about Jehovah’s witness until you said you were a christian. Now i have to learn more about it. This is weird that ive never know this, i really have been living in a shoe box. Thank you again my friend maybe you can tell me more tomorrow. @Gospel
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A Bible student should never cherry-pick verses, but have a whole vision of what the Bible says about the topic we are studying. So, let’s check some examples that lead us to our belief about this:
- Luke 1:35: “In answer the angel said to her: ‘Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son.’” Holy spirit here is compared in a parallel structure with God’s power.
- Luke 11:13: “Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!” In this case, Jesus compares the holy spirit with something the Father gives as a good gift.
- Matthew 3:11: “I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire.” Holy spirit here is used in association with other impersonal things: water and fire.
- Mark 1:8: “I baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with holy spirit.” Again, holy spirit is likened to something like water.
- Acts 1:5: “for John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized with holy spirit not many days after this.” Christians are spoken of as being baptized “in holy spirit”, as if it were something like water.
- Acts 2:1–4: “Now while the day of the Festival of Pentecost was in progress, they were all together at the same place. Suddenly there was a noise from heaven, just like that of a rushing, stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed, and one came to rest on each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak.” Forces such as a breeze and fire are mentioned in connection with the holy spirit. But more important, can a person get filled with another person?
- Acts 2:33: “Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.” Jesus is to the right hand of God, receives holy spirit from the Father and pours it out. Can a person be poured out? Of course you can pour your inner feelings and thoughts, which are abstract things, but can yourself as a person be poured out?
- Exodus 31:3: “I will fill him with the spirit of God, giving him wisdom, understanding and knowledge of every kind of craftsmanship.” Again, someone is filled with holy spirit. Very often, holy spirit is called “the spirit of God” or “God’s spirit”, but not even once “God holy spirit”. So it seems it is something that belongs to God or is part of God, but not God Himself.
- Judges 6:34 (ESV): “But the Spirit of the LORD clothed Gideon, and he sounded the trumpet, and the Abiezrites were called out to follow him.” The spirit of Jehovah can envelope or clothe a person.
- Numbers 11:17: “I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take away some of the spirit that is on you and place it on them, and they will help youin bearing the burden of the people so that you may not have to bear it alone.” Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another.
- Isiaiah 44:3: “I shall pour out water upong the thirsty one, and trickling streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed, and my blessing upon your descendants.” The spirit is God’s possesion, “my spirit”, and it is poured out just like water. Can a person be poured out?
- Joel 2:28, 29: “After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit on those days.” Again, the spirit is said to be poured out and also enabling people to do things, as a powerful force.
- Acts 11:16: “At this I recalled the saying of the Lord, how he used to say: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with holy spirit.’” Again, the figure of being baptized with holy spirit, as if were an impersonal thing.
- Ephesians 5:18: “Also, do not get drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit.” Here, persons are urged to become “filled with spirit” instead of with wine.
- Acts 6:3: “So, brothers, select for yourselves seven reputable men from among you, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary matter.” People are mentioned here as filled with spirit just as they are filled with wisdom.
- Acts 6:5: “What they said was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit, as well as Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.” Again, a person here is full of holy spirit just as he is full of a quality such as faith.
- Acts 13:52: “And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” Once more, we find people filled with holy spirit just as they are filled with something, in this case, joy.
- 2 Corinthians 6:6: “by purity, by knowledge, by patience, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” Here holy spirit is included in a list of abstract qualities, it is hardly treated as a person.
- 1 Peter 1:11: “Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow” The prophets had the spirit within them, indicating things about Christ.
I will answer you tomorrow, 02.56 AM here where I am @Gospel.
J.
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In the sense that I experience a "spiritual rebirth " due to my converted to a personal faith in Christ?
Yes, in that sense I am born again.
Where is this in scripture? What Scripture tells you this?
But we believe that Jesus Christ was speaking about being born again in Heaven (in John 3), as the exegesis you have posted explains
So on one hand there is a sense you are born again because of “what” scripture?
But on the other hand you believe John 3 is talking about a future event-
I believe Johann explained that well…
Jesus explains: “Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (John 3:5) When Jesus was baptized and holy spirit descended upon him, he was thus born “from water and spirit.” At that time, there was an accompanying declaration from heaven: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17)
In this way, God announced that he had brought forth Jesus as a spiritual son having the prospect of entering into the heavenly Kingdom. Later, at Pentecost 33 C.E., holy spirit will be poured out on other baptized ones, and they will thus be born again as spirit-begotten sons of God.—Acts 2:1-4.
It seems to me that Evangelicals give a lot of importance to the term “born again”. They apply that biblical term to conversion, which implies faith in Christ, a rejection of sin and a personal holiness of life.
Though JEHOVAH’s Witnesses apply the term “born again” to the change of nature —from physical to spiritual— of those who go to heaven, we do believe in the importance of conversion by having faith in Christ and showing your faith through holy works.
Jesus reveals to Nicodemus that in order to see the Kingdom of God, a human has to be born a second time. Nicodemus’ response in verse 4 indicates that he understood Jesus’ words to mean experiencing a literal second birth as a human.
Jesus, however, goes on to describe this second birth as being “born from . . . spirit.” (Joh 3:5) Those who were “to become God’s children” “were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Joh 1:12, 13) At 1Pe 1:3, 23, Peter uses a synonymous Biblical expression, saying that anointed Christians are given “a new birth.” Although most Bibles use the expression “born again,” a number of Bibles say “born from above,” which is also a possible rendering because the Greek word aʹno·then usually means “from above.” (Joh 3:31; 19:11; Jas 1:17; 3:15, 17) Both renderings harmonize with the idea that those who would enter the Kingdom would experience a new birth that is “from God” and thus from above. (1Jo 3:9) But considering Nicodemus’ response, in this context the Greek term has also been understood to mean “again; anew.”
Nicodemus was likely familiar with the baptisms performed by John the Baptist. (Mr 1:4-8; Lu 3:16; Joh 1:31-34) So when Jesus spoke about water, it is reasonable to assume that Nicodemus would have discerned that Jesus was referring to water used for baptism. Nicodemus would also have been familiar with the way the Hebrew Scriptures use the term “spirit of God,” that is, God’s active force. (Ge 41:38; Ex 31:3; Nu 11:17; Jg 3:10; 1Sa 10:6; Isa 63:11)
Therefore, when Jesus used the word “spirit,” Nicodemus would have understood it to be holy spirit. Jesus’ own experience illustrates the point he made to Nicodemus. When Jesus was baptized in water, holy spirit descended upon him. So he was “born from water and spirit.” (Mt 3:16, 17; Lu 3:21, 22) At that time, God declared that Jesus was his Son, apparently indicating that he had brought forth Jesus as a spiritual son who had the prospect of returning to heaven. A follower of Jesus who is “born from water” is one who has turned away from his former course of life, repented of his sins, and been baptized in water. Those who are born from both “water and spirit” are begotten, or brought forth, by God to be sons of God with the promise of spirit life in the heavens and with the prospect of ruling in the Kingdom of God.—Lu 22:30; Ro 8:14-17, 23; Tit 3:5; Heb 6:4, 5.
I believe that Christ rose with a spiritual body, or a glorified body, because his physical flesh was sacrificed once for all time, and only spirits can live in Heaven.
As for the resurrection of the body, those who will live in Heaven with God and Jesus will have a spiritual body just like Jesus does. The millions of people who will be resurrected for life in Paradise earth will have a fleshly physical body.
I think not one Scripture says that mankind will be blessed with eternal life, but it is rather a promise from several passages that, taken together, describe a future earthly paradise with everlasting life:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/Good-News-From-God-Video-Series/video-gods-creation/
We preach door to door to help people come close to JEHOVAH God by teaching what the Scriptures say.
Jesus was God’s royal representative, the one anointed by God for the kingship; hence, it could be said that “the Kingdom” was in their midst. Not only was he present in this capacity but he also had authority to perform works manifesting God’s kingly power and to prepare candidates for positions within his coming Kingdom.—Lu 22:29-30.
In our perspective, God’s Kingdom is a real government established by JEHOVAH God, and God has appointed Jesus Christ as King of the Kingdom and has given him more authority than any human ruler could ever have. (Matthew 28:18)
Once that happens, God’s Kingdom will . . .
- Remove the wicked, whose selfishness harms us all. “As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth.”—Proverbs 2:22.
- End all wars. “[God] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.”—Psalm 46:9.
- Bring prosperity and security to the earth. “Everyone will live in peace among their own vineyards and fig trees, and no one will make them afraid.”—Micah 4:4, Good News Translation.
- Make the earth into a paradise. “Thirsty deserts will be glad; barren lands will celebrate and blossom with flowers.”—Isaiah 35:1, Contemporary English Version.
- Provide everyone with meaningful, enjoyable work. “The work of their own hands [God’s] chosen ones will use to the full. They will not toil for nothing.”—Isaiah 65:21-23.
- Eliminate disease. “No resident will say: ‘I am sick.’”—Isaiah 33:24.
- Set us free from the aging process. “Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.”—Job 33:25.
- Bring the dead back to life. “All those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.”—John 5:28, 29.
To be honest, I’ve been trying to stay out of this conversation, but I cannot let clear errors be presented as facts. Like this statement. Born of water, natural birth, born of Spirit, salvation, and a new birth in Christ.
To claim to be Christian and yet?
You deny Jesus as God, which He clearly claims. Right there should disqualify you. Jesus was not created as Michael the Archangel, nor is He a god, nor did He rise in Spirit.
You deny the Holy Spirit. He is a He, and not “the force” or “applied power.”
You believe only 144,000 are anointed and will reign in heaven, and the rest of us will be living here in the new, perfect world.
You reject Hell. Sorry, Hell is a very REAL place, spoken about in many places. You say that we “soul sleep” or hold annihilationism.
Or change the Bible to say what you want it to.
It is, as I can see from the evidence.
This is an example. The Word clearly says that Jesus’s resurrection was bodily. There was no body in the tomb. Jesus walking around, allowing people to touch Him and His wounds, Jesus eating, etc.
I do not mean to come off as combative, but it is pretty clear that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not true Christians. But we would love to have you.
Peter
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I believe that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of the Most High, he has a unique position among all beings. He is the most exalted of creatures. It follows that he would be the Archangel, the chief of the angels, as God gave all authority into his hands. (Matthew 28:18)
There is one God of all, who is also God of our God; and one Holy Spirit, the illuminating and sanctifying power, as Christ said after his resurrection to his apostles: “And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be clothed with power from on high” and again “But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Ghost is come upon you”; And I believe the Son to be subject and obedient in all things to God the Father.
We say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, but that he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect as God, but begotten, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten.
We are persecuted because we say that the Son has a beginning but that God is without beginning.
Would God need to resurrect Jesus’ human body of flesh, bones and blood? No, for Jesus was to go to heaven. Is it not understandable, then, that the apostle Peter said that Jesus was ‘put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’?—[1 Pet. 3:18]
But some persons might wonder: If Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, like the angels, how could he appear in the flesh after his resurrection? To get the Bible’s answer, think back to the occasions when angels had appeared to men, such as to Abraham, Lot, Gideon and Samson’s parents. ([Gen. 18:1, 2;][ 19:1;][ Judg. 6:11, 12;][ 13:13-21] In heaven those angels were spirits and had invisible spirit bodies. But so as to be seen by humans they materialized human bodies.
We believe that when ‘the End’ finally comes 144,000 Christians will go to Heaven and rule the Earth from there with Christ - these are known as the anointed.
Becoming an anointed person is not something that is done by voting or selection. Instead, the anointed one knows directly from God that he or she has been chosen.
The majority of JEHOVAH’s Witnesses are not anointed and will spend eternity in paradise on Earth. In fact billions of people will have everlasting life on earth and thus fulfil God’s original plan for humanity when he put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
The original words translated as “hell” in some older Bible translations (Hebrew, “Sheol”; Greek, “Hades”) basically refer to “the Grave,” that is, the common grave of mankind. The Bible shows that people in “the Grave” are in a state of nonexistence.
The idea of eternal torment is repugnant to God. ([Jeremiah 32:35] Such an idea is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.” ([1 John 4:8] He wants us to worship him out of love, not fear of eternal torment.—[Matthew 22:36-38]
I appreciate this conversation and the spirited debate going on. Just a friendly reminder to all that there’s a fine line this thread is walking.
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You see, this is CLEARLY not Biblical. Jesus tells us He is I AM. He made all these statements that I’m pretty sure you will wave off, but? John 8:58: “Very truly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am!” The immediate reaction of the audience—picking up stones to kill him—indicates they interpreted this as a claim to divinity (blasphemy). Also, John 10:30: “I and the Father are one.”
Jesus frequently performed actions that, in the Jewish context of the time, were considered exclusive to God, such as forgiving sins: In Mark 2:5–7, Jesus tells a paralyzed man his sins are forgiven. The scribes present explicitly ask, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
He claimed he would sit on a glorious throne to judge all nations (Matthew 25:31–32) and that He referred to himself as “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8).
In several instances, Jesus accepted worship (proskynesis), which was strictly reserved for Yahweh in monotheistic Jewish Law. After the resurrection, the apostle Thomas addresses Jesus as “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Jesus accepts the title rather than correcting him. The Blind Man: In John 9:38, after being healed, the man says, “Lord, I believe,” and worships him.
What about the title “Son of Man”? Jesus’ preferred self-designation was “The Son of Man.” This is widely believed to be a reference to Daniel 7:13–14, which describes a figure coming with the clouds of heaven to whom is given “everlasting dominion” and whom “all nations and languages should serve.”
Yes, one God, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All one God.
Yes, because it is not true. Jesus Himself told us, He told us He is God. God has no beginning. The Word, which is also Him, was in the beginning with God, not at the beginning.
Yes. Jesus resurrected Himself in the flesh. Why is this so hard for you to understand? It is clear. Jesus even proved it. That was the whole point. I already feel I answered this; however, it may have been to another. So here we go. In the original Greek, the verse uses a parallel structure: Sarki (flesh): Dative of respect. Pneumati (spirit): Dative of respect. Many scholars argue that this does not describe what Jesus was (his substance), but rather the realm in which he operated. Put to death in the flesh: This refers to his physical, mortal existence and his death on the cross. Made alive in the spirit: This is often interpreted not as him becoming a “ghost,” but as his resurrection by the power of the Holy Spirit or his entry into a glorified, spiritual state of existence.
Then of course, there was no body in the tomb. All the verses where He is proving He is flesh.
Continued
In the Old Testament passages (like Genesis 18), the “men” were visitors who appeared and then vanished; they didn’t have a human history. Jesus, however, had a specific, identifiable body that bore the permanent scars of his death.
In John 20:27, Jesus tells Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side.”
This wasn’t just “flesh” for the sake of appearance; it was the same flesh that had been on the cross. Jesus himself addressed this exact argument during his first appearance to the disciples. They thought they were seeing a “spirit” (a ghost or a temporary apparition), and Jesus corrected them immediately:
“Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” Luke 24:39
If Jesus were merely a spirit appearing as flesh, this statement would be misleading. He was making a point to distinguish his resurrected state from the “spirit beings.”
I did not know this. However, you do realize the 144,00 are Jews, right? Revelation 7:4–8 specifically lists 12,000 people from 12 distinct tribes of Israel (Judah, Reuben, Gad, etc.). If God meant “the Church,” He wouldn’t have gone to such lengths to name specific Jewish tribes. In this view, these are 144,000 Jewish men who are “sealed” and converted to Christ during the end times to act as evangelists to the rest of the world.
I guess we will have to save this for a new Topic.
Peter
Actually, the Living Bible puts John 8:58 very nicely. The Jewish leaders complaint that Jesus was too young to have seen Abraham, and Jesus answered:
“The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”
We understand that that is the point of his answer: he had seen Abraham because he existed even before Abraham. And I think that this is by far the most natural way to understand this verse.
Now why, you may ask, would the Jews get so worked up over Jesus’ claim of being older then Abraham?
The answer is found in the Jewish view of Abraham. Abraham was so important to them that he was the equivalent of Christ for us. Abraham was so important to the Jews because they claimed that being children of Abraham was a special title reserved for them. For Jesus to claim that he was older then Abraham was sacrilegious to the Jews. When someone is older, they have more power and authority. In short, they are better then a younger person. To any Jew, Abraham would have been better then Jesus mainly because Abraham was older. For Jesus to say that he was alive before Abraham was alive would mean that Jesus was better then Abraham.
When Jesus said, “I and the Father are one,” he did not mean that they were actually “one substance”, or “one God”, or co-equal and co-eternal, but rather that he and the Father have a “unity of purpose”.
The context indicates that Jesus was saying that they were “one” in pastoral work. The point being that the Father and the Son were united in the divine work of saving the ‘sheep’.
See John 17:21 wherein Jesus prayed regarding his disciples: “That they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they may be in us,” adding “that they may be one even as we are one”.
The same Greek word (hen) for “one” throughout John 17 indicates that Jesus did not expect for his followers to literally become a single Being, or “one in substance”, with each other, or with God, and therefore that Jesus also did not expect his hearers to think that he and God the Father were one entity either.
Actually, it was the Father and God of Jesus who gave him the ability or authority to forgive sins.
Matthew 9:1-8
1 He entered into a boat, and crossed over, and came into his own city. 2 Behold, they brought to him a man who was paralyzed, lying on a bed. Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, “Son, cheer up! Your sins are forgiven you.” 3 Behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man blasphemes.” 4 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven;’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk?’ 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” (then he said to the paralytic), “Get up, and take up your mat, and go up to your house.” 7 He arose and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitudes saw it, THEY MARVELED AND GLORIFIED GOD, WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH AUTHORITY TO MEN. — Matthew 9:1-8, World English
Matthew 9:8 reveals that Jesus, as a man among men, received this authority to forgive sin from his God and Father.
Peter, in speaking to the Jews, described Jesus as “a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by [Greek instrumental “en”, “by means of,” – Strong’s #1722] him in the midst of you.” (Acts 2:22) The “God” that Peter refers is evidently not Jesus whom “God” approved, so Peter must be referring to the God and Father of Jesus (1 Peter 1:3), and in doing this he is presenting “God” as one person, that is the Father. This agrees with Paul’s statement that there is “one God of whom are all,” and Paul identifies that “one God” as being the Father of Jesus. – 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Acts 2:22-23 shows God performed works through Jesus.
John 3:1-2
(New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition)
3 Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2 He came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God [the Father], for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with that person.”1 Corinthians 3:23 — New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (NASB95)
23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ BELONGS to God [the Father].
Actually, any obeisance (proskuneo ) given to Jesus is to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11) For example, Joseph’s brothers also bowed to him in Genesis 43:28 (proskuneo LXX), but he was not a false god, because his brothers knew that full worshipful devotion belonged to the Almighty God Jehovah.
Actually, the weight of scriptural evidence supports subordinationism, the Son’s total submission to the Father, and God’s paternal supremacy over the Son in EVERY aspect!
We acknowledge the Son’s high rank at God’s right hand, but the Father is still GREATER than the Son in ALL THINGS!
The Father, the Son, and the holy spirit all participated in creation and salvation, but that in itself does not confirm that the three are each co-equal or co-eternal.
God is only explicitly identified as “ONE” in the Bible, and the doctrine of the Trinity, which word literally meaning a set of three, ascribes a co-equal threeness to the being of the infinite God that is NOT SCRIPTURAL!!
That is because the Kingdom is a government set up by Jehovah God. Its King, Jesus Christ, rules from heaven. (Matthew 4:17; John 18:36) The Bible says of Jesus: “He will rule as King . . . forever.” (Luke 1:32, 33) As King of God’s Kingdom, Jesus will rule over everyone on the earth.
That is because on the Sabbath, Jesus performed some of his most outstanding miracles, which included healing the sick. (Lu 13:10-13; Joh 5:5-9; 9:1-14) This evidently foreshadowed the kind of relief he will bring during his Kingdom rule, which will be like a sabbath rest.—Heb 10:1.