Iran: another opportunity to discredit the Gospel

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Amen. Please do not think I’m attacking you. In your own words, if Revelations is simply history, which I still have no idea how one would get to that, when do the new heaven and the new earth arrive? When are the seven seals and the seven bowls poured out? When did Jesus return in the clouds with great thunder and bright lightning so no one would miss it? Who was the beast, the Antichrist, the Witnesses? ETC. I’m honestly curious as to how you see a prophecy as a past event.

As I believe, these things are yet to come. We are seeing the signs exactly as Jesus said they would, and I do not believe that one-fourth of the earth’s population has died from a combination of war (red horse), famine (black horse), plague, and wild animals. I do not believe I have heard a trumpet, or that one-third of the remaining human population is killed by fire, smoke, and sulfur.

Do you see anywhere that it is documented that the two witnesses who were killed, then immediately after the witnesses are resurrected, a great earthquake strikes Jerusalem, killing 7,000 people?

Again, I’m not attacking you, I’m honestly asking.

Peter

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Here brother @PeterC

According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.

Preterism is divided into two types: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. This article will confine the discussion to full preterism (or hyper-preterism, as some call it).

Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem. Preterism teaches that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened. (In the case of the final judgment, it still is in the process of being fulfilled.) Jesus’ return to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.

Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God’s covenant with Israel was ended. The “new heavens and new earth” spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a “new earth.” This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology.

Preterists usually point to a passage in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to bolster their argument. After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” (Matthew 24:34). The preterist takes this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking—the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was therefore “Judgment Day.”

The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:35–37), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18). And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.

Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events. There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, full preterism has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem.

And like you, I was not “attacking” @Dr_S !

J.

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First, thank you for the thorough explanation. I wanted to make sure they weren’t Peterists. I’m not dead yet. (Smile) Anyway, at first glance, it seems to suggest that Jesus expected the end of the world to happen within the lifetime of his immediate audience.

However, to understand it fully and correctly, you have to look at it three different ways to interpret the word “generation,” Greek: genea, and the phrase “all these things.”

The Historical view of the Fall of Jerusalem argues that “all these things” refers specifically to the destruction of the Temple and the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. However, in Matthew 24:1-2, the disciples ask about the destruction of the Temple buildings. Jesus provides a list of signs: wars, famines, and persecutions.

Since the Temple was destroyed about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words, the “generation” present during his ministry did indeed live to see it. In this view, Jesus isn’t talking about the end of the world yet, but the end of the Old Covenant system.

The Prophetic view suggests that “this generation” doesn’t refer to the people living in the 1st century, but to the people living at the time when the “signs” begin to accelerate.

Once the final signs, or the “birth pains,” start to happen, that specific generation will see the process through to the end. It’s a promise of the speed of the final events—once the fuse is lit, it won’t take centuries to finish; it will happen within a single lifetime.

Then you have the Linguistic view. Some interpret genea not as a 40-year timeframe, but as a “race” or “type” of people. Jesus could be saying that the Jewish people (the “generation” of Israel) will be preserved and will not pass away despite all the tribulations until the end of time.

Now there is a middle-ground perspective. It suggests Jesus was using “prophetic foreshortening”—looking at two distant mountain peaks (the Fall of Jerusalem and the End of the World) as if they were one.

The events of 70 A.D. were a “mini-fulfillment” or a prototype of what the End Times will look like. Much like the rest of the Old Testament. Therefore, the prophecy was true for the 1st-century audience in a local sense, and will be true for the final generation in a global sense.

Simply put, I do not understand how someone can read Revelations and come up with, good, we don’t have to worry about that.

Peter

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Your tone is irenic, and quite civil. I appreciate that, and do not view your questions as attacks.

But disputes about eschatology are not trivial. In many languages, the same word applies to conclusion and goal. French: but. Turkish: son. English: end. Greek: 'εσχατος. Since our goals must be a subset of our God’s goals (see Matt. 6:33) – then, if God’s goal for history is the triumphant rise of antιchristian globalist power, getting with THAT program takes some mental gymnastics!

  • “What’s it all about, Alfie?”
  • “What’s the point, caller? Get to the point!”
  • What is the direct object of the first verb in this phrase? οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον
  • Why are we here? What should we hope to achieve give our limited resources of time, energy, and attention?
  • Is Christianity a worldview or a navel view? A divine blueprint and agenda for reshaping all of life? Or just a toolkit for endlessly amplifying our own Personal Religious Experience?
  • Is God eternally Three and One?

That last question is key. If God is Plural as well as Single, then the reality of corporate components to His eternal plan matters. Yes, there are redeemed, Christian souls. That’s nice. But there can also be such things as:

  • Christian churches
  • Christian families
  • Christian civil orders

Is all power in heaven and on earth enough power to rein in feral nations? To transform every dimension of life, including the external and observable and quantifiable dimensions?

IOW, is Jesus Lord? Here? Now? And if He truly does reign for, through, and with us, what is the vector of history? Towards the global triumph of evil? Or towards the day when the knowledge of God covers the face of the earth?

And how can we get with God’s program? Blessed is he who is in on what God is up to. And who has his children on board with that commission. And who can see God’s favor extending through his descendants into distant centuries.

I hope to someday look into God’s heavens, the night sky, and invoke His favor on folks serving Him on Mars.

And you hope to see global catastrophe?

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I am a huge fan of whatever drives people to repentance. If it’s in a foxhole, fine; global catastrophe, sure; box of cookies at Christmas, awesome. The only debate should be: are you doing enough to spread His message?

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I guess my direct answer is YES. Yes, I am. As Paul would say.

“If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard-pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.” Philippians 1:22-24

This cannot be all there is. Remember what we read in Revelations. 21:3-8

“And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.’ And he who was seated on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’

Also, he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true. And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God, and he will be my son.

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

My question is, since we have the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, and of course death, mourning, crying, and pain, this has not come yet.

Peter

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In ancient literature, the city was often used to represent an entire social order. The most obvious example is Augustine’s masterpiece “The City of God,” with its vision of two cities locked in Mortal Kombat. Go back even further, to the first epic poem we know of, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Here, history began “when kingship was let down from heaven.”

NT references that com to mind include:

Gal 4:26 ἡ δὲ ἄνω ᾿Ιερουσαλὴμ ἐλευθέρα ἐστίν, ἥτις ἐστὶ μήτηρ πάντων ἡμῶν.

Rev 21:10 καὶ ἀπήνεγκέ με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπ᾿ ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, καὶ ἔδειξέ μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ,

Heb 12:22 ἀλλὰ προσεληλύθατε Σιὼν ὄρει καὶ πόλει Θεοῦ ζῶντος, ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ, καὶ μυριάσιν ἀγγέλων, πανηγύρει

The Jerusalem “from above” (ἡ δὲ ἄνω ᾿Ιερουσαλὴμ). The holy city, the Jerusalem coming down from God’s heaven (τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ).

The heavenly Jerusalem (Ιερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ)

And finally, for the icing on the cake, who are the citizens of this city? As Jesus said, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ. (John 3:3 – you’ve usually seen the adjective ἄνωθεν – from above – translated as “again.”)

We, God’s called-forth assembly, are literally and Biblically an entire new SOCIAL ORDER. A new Kingdom. A new City. Born in heaven, but made manifest on earth.

Memorize the Sermon on the Mount 2.5 times, and it finally sinks in – the ethics Jesus requires derive from the access we have in His name to the infinite resources of Heaven. We are not rats in a Skinner Box, not imprisoned in a closed system who can only shuffle limited energies around. Rather, we can call upon God’s infinite wisdom, grace, and power to achieve His goals in our lives, and in our days, and in our minutes.

And I think that’s kinda grand. Much more motivating than speculations about a massive space station casting shade upon the globe.

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You see, this makes no sense to me. The way I read it is that it is not a metaphor, not a spiritual and heavenly representation of the city of Jerusalem, but a real, tangible place.

Of course, God’s kingdom requires a spiritual rebirth, or being ‘born from above.’ The children of God live not just within the physical realm of earth, but also participate in a greater family of God, which connects them to the divine resources of Heaven. This new identity as citizens creates a transformative reality, allowing believers to access God’s wisdom and grace, thereby facilitating a life that reflects heavenly ethics and values. Not an actual city yet. It is coming.

I do agree with pretty much the rest of what you were saying. But there are still too many things that simply make no sense in this view. Where are the streets of Gold?

“And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.” Revelation 21:23-25

Why do we still have a Sun and a Moon? Pain and suffering? Where is God sitting on His throne? Where is my new home?

"In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also.” John 14:2-3

Where is the mass migration? Why am I not at the table with my Lord?

“And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.” Luke 13:29

Sorry, I do not mean to be offensive, but when I look around, I still see a world run by Satan, Not what the Word declares as Paradise.

Peter

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Well said. Faith should be about transformation not sensationalism. American centered interpretations often overlook the global nature of the faith and end up causing more confusion than clarity. Let’s get back to the basics of worship and humility.

When we try to force fit modern headlines into ancient texts, we often lose the actual spiritual message. This kind of sensationalism can definitely push people away from faith rather than drawing them closer. It’s important to stay grounded in the core teachings rather than getting lost in geopolitical predictions.

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The Bible includes a number of word pictures that, taken together, comprise a prophetic vocabulary of vivid imagery. For example, when the Lord comes “with clouds,” the Biblically literate reader knows that this refers to His visible judgement upon a nation. Such as Israel in 70 AD. In like manner, rulers are often described, metaphorically, as heavenly bodies. See Joseph’s dream, for example.

Let’s think about Luke 13:29. Roanoke, VA is a LONG ways west from geographical Jerusalem. Yet every Communion Sunday, folks here show up at the Lord’s Table to renew their citizenship in His Kingdom. And I have to ask – have you been excommunicated? If not, then why are you not at table with our Lord? Why would you not participated in that blessed fellowship? Every time we celebrate the Lord’s supper, we recall what He’s done, and the certainty of the Last Day and our own resurrection.

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Thank you, and Amen. Our God is good, He is at work, and blessed are those who are in on what He is up to!

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Not that I\m aware of.

You speak medifphoritly, I await phyiscally. Of course, I participate in communion. However, I truly believe what the Word describes is physical. Sitting at the table with Jesus Himself. Looking Jesus in the eye, and he with you.

“Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Revelations 19:6-9

Also, here is when Jesus said this.

“I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,” Matthew 8:11

I believe that this is why Jesus made this statement.

“I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:29

Physical. Where is Jesus? Where are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The end time is coming. However, I believe the Bible shows that it has not come yet.

Peter

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i dunno, maybe just take time to tell people what you think is wrong with their theories etc, instead of saying they shouldnt even open their mouths to say what they have been thinking? just my opinrin :]