Iran: another opportunity to discredit the Gospel

Current Events
21

Amen. Please do not think I’m attacking you. In your own words, if Revelations is simply history, which I still have no idea how one would get to that, when do the new heaven and the new earth arrive? When are the seven seals and the seven bowls poured out? When did Jesus return in the clouds with great thunder and bright lightning so no one would miss it? Who was the beast, the Antichrist, the Witnesses? ETC. I’m honestly curious as to how you see a prophecy as a past event.

As I believe, these things are yet to come. We are seeing the signs exactly as Jesus said they would, and I do not believe that one-fourth of the earth’s population has died from a combination of war (red horse), famine (black horse), plague, and wild animals. I do not believe I have heard a trumpet, or that one-third of the remaining human population is killed by fire, smoke, and sulfur.

Do you see anywhere that it is documented that the two witnesses who were killed, then immediately after the witnesses are resurrected, a great earthquake strikes Jerusalem, killing 7,000 people?

Again, I’m not attacking you, I’m honestly asking.

Peter

3 Likes
22

Here brother @PeterC

According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.

Preterism is divided into two types: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. This article will confine the discussion to full preterism (or hyper-preterism, as some call it).

Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem. Preterism teaches that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened. (In the case of the final judgment, it still is in the process of being fulfilled.) Jesus’ return to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.

Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God’s covenant with Israel was ended. The “new heavens and new earth” spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a “new earth.” This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology.

Preterists usually point to a passage in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to bolster their argument. After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” (Matthew 24:34). The preterist takes this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking—the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was therefore “Judgment Day.”

The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:35–37), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18). And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.

Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events. There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, full preterism has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem.

And like you, I was not “attacking” @Dr_S !

J.

3 Likes
23

First, thank you for the thorough explanation. I wanted to make sure they weren’t Peterists. I’m not dead yet. (Smile) Anyway, at first glance, it seems to suggest that Jesus expected the end of the world to happen within the lifetime of his immediate audience.

However, to understand it fully and correctly, you have to look at it three different ways to interpret the word “generation,” Greek: genea, and the phrase “all these things.”

The Historical view of the Fall of Jerusalem argues that “all these things” refers specifically to the destruction of the Temple and the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. However, in Matthew 24:1-2, the disciples ask about the destruction of the Temple buildings. Jesus provides a list of signs: wars, famines, and persecutions.

Since the Temple was destroyed about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words, the “generation” present during his ministry did indeed live to see it. In this view, Jesus isn’t talking about the end of the world yet, but the end of the Old Covenant system.

The Prophetic view suggests that “this generation” doesn’t refer to the people living in the 1st century, but to the people living at the time when the “signs” begin to accelerate.

Once the final signs, or the “birth pains,” start to happen, that specific generation will see the process through to the end. It’s a promise of the speed of the final events—once the fuse is lit, it won’t take centuries to finish; it will happen within a single lifetime.

Then you have the Linguistic view. Some interpret genea not as a 40-year timeframe, but as a “race” or “type” of people. Jesus could be saying that the Jewish people (the “generation” of Israel) will be preserved and will not pass away despite all the tribulations until the end of time.

Now there is a middle-ground perspective. It suggests Jesus was using “prophetic foreshortening”—looking at two distant mountain peaks (the Fall of Jerusalem and the End of the World) as if they were one.

The events of 70 A.D. were a “mini-fulfillment” or a prototype of what the End Times will look like. Much like the rest of the Old Testament. Therefore, the prophecy was true for the 1st-century audience in a local sense, and will be true for the final generation in a global sense.

Simply put, I do not understand how someone can read Revelations and come up with, good, we don’t have to worry about that.

Peter

1 Like
24

Your tone is irenic, and quite civil. I appreciate that, and do not view your questions as attacks.

But disputes about eschatology are not trivial. In many languages, the same word applies to conclusion and goal. French: but. Turkish: son. English: end. Greek: 'εσχατος. Since our goals must be a subset of our God’s goals (see Matt. 6:33) – then, if God’s goal for history is the triumphant rise of antιchristian globalist power, getting with THAT program takes some mental gymnastics!

  • “What’s it all about, Alfie?”
  • “What’s the point, caller? Get to the point!”
  • What is the direct object of the first verb in this phrase? οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον
  • Why are we here? What should we hope to achieve give our limited resources of time, energy, and attention?
  • Is Christianity a worldview or a navel view? A divine blueprint and agenda for reshaping all of life? Or just a toolkit for endlessly amplifying our own Personal Religious Experience?
  • Is God eternally Three and One?

That last question is key. If God is Plural as well as Single, then the reality of corporate components to His eternal plan matters. Yes, there are redeemed, Christian souls. That’s nice. But there can also be such things as:

  • Christian churches
  • Christian families
  • Christian civil orders

Is all power in heaven and on earth enough power to rein in feral nations? To transform every dimension of life, including the external and observable and quantifiable dimensions?

IOW, is Jesus Lord? Here? Now? And if He truly does reign for, through, and with us, what is the vector of history? Towards the global triumph of evil? Or towards the day when the knowledge of God covers the face of the earth?

And how can we get with God’s program? Blessed is he who is in on what God is up to. And who has his children on board with that commission. And who can see God’s favor extending through his descendants into distant centuries.

I hope to someday look into God’s heavens, the night sky, and invoke His favor on folks serving Him on Mars.

And you hope to see global catastrophe?

25

I am a huge fan of whatever drives people to repentance. If it’s in a foxhole, fine; global catastrophe, sure; box of cookies at Christmas, awesome. The only debate should be: are you doing enough to spread His message?

1 Like
26

I guess my direct answer is YES. Yes, I am. As Paul would say.

“If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard-pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.” Philippians 1:22-24

This cannot be all there is. Remember what we read in Revelations. 21:3-8

“And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.’ And he who was seated on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’

Also, he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true. And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God, and he will be my son.

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

My question is, since we have the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, and of course death, mourning, crying, and pain, this has not come yet.

Peter

1 Like
27

In ancient literature, the city was often used to represent an entire social order. The most obvious example is Augustine’s masterpiece “The City of God,” with its vision of two cities locked in Mortal Kombat. Go back even further, to the first epic poem we know of, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Here, history began “when kingship was let down from heaven.”

NT references that com to mind include:

Gal 4:26 ἡ δὲ ἄνω ᾿Ιερουσαλὴμ ἐλευθέρα ἐστίν, ἥτις ἐστὶ μήτηρ πάντων ἡμῶν.

Rev 21:10 καὶ ἀπήνεγκέ με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπ᾿ ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, καὶ ἔδειξέ μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ,

Heb 12:22 ἀλλὰ προσεληλύθατε Σιὼν ὄρει καὶ πόλει Θεοῦ ζῶντος, ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ, καὶ μυριάσιν ἀγγέλων, πανηγύρει

The Jerusalem “from above” (ἡ δὲ ἄνω ᾿Ιερουσαλὴμ). The holy city, the Jerusalem coming down from God’s heaven (τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ).

The heavenly Jerusalem (Ιερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ)

And finally, for the icing on the cake, who are the citizens of this city? As Jesus said, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ. (John 3:3 – you’ve usually seen the adjective ἄνωθεν – from above – translated as “again.”)

We, God’s called-forth assembly, are literally and Biblically an entire new SOCIAL ORDER. A new Kingdom. A new City. Born in heaven, but made manifest on earth.

Memorize the Sermon on the Mount 2.5 times, and it finally sinks in – the ethics Jesus requires derive from the access we have in His name to the infinite resources of Heaven. We are not rats in a Skinner Box, not imprisoned in a closed system who can only shuffle limited energies around. Rather, we can call upon God’s infinite wisdom, grace, and power to achieve His goals in our lives, and in our days, and in our minutes.

And I think that’s kinda grand. Much more motivating than speculations about a massive space station casting shade upon the globe.

28

You see, this makes no sense to me. The way I read it is that it is not a metaphor, not a spiritual and heavenly representation of the city of Jerusalem, but a real, tangible place.

Of course, God’s kingdom requires a spiritual rebirth, or being ‘born from above.’ The children of God live not just within the physical realm of earth, but also participate in a greater family of God, which connects them to the divine resources of Heaven. This new identity as citizens creates a transformative reality, allowing believers to access God’s wisdom and grace, thereby facilitating a life that reflects heavenly ethics and values. Not an actual city yet. It is coming.

I do agree with pretty much the rest of what you were saying. But there are still too many things that simply make no sense in this view. Where are the streets of Gold?

“And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.” Revelation 21:23-25

Why do we still have a Sun and a Moon? Pain and suffering? Where is God sitting on His throne? Where is my new home?

"In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also.” John 14:2-3

Where is the mass migration? Why am I not at the table with my Lord?

“And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.” Luke 13:29

Sorry, I do not mean to be offensive, but when I look around, I still see a world run by Satan, Not what the Word declares as Paradise.

Peter

29

Well said. Faith should be about transformation not sensationalism. American centered interpretations often overlook the global nature of the faith and end up causing more confusion than clarity. Let’s get back to the basics of worship and humility.

When we try to force fit modern headlines into ancient texts, we often lose the actual spiritual message. This kind of sensationalism can definitely push people away from faith rather than drawing them closer. It’s important to stay grounded in the core teachings rather than getting lost in geopolitical predictions.

1 Like
30

The Bible includes a number of word pictures that, taken together, comprise a prophetic vocabulary of vivid imagery. For example, when the Lord comes “with clouds,” the Biblically literate reader knows that this refers to His visible judgement upon a nation. Such as Israel in 70 AD. In like manner, rulers are often described, metaphorically, as heavenly bodies. See Joseph’s dream, for example.

Let’s think about Luke 13:29. Roanoke, VA is a LONG ways west from geographical Jerusalem. Yet every Communion Sunday, folks here show up at the Lord’s Table to renew their citizenship in His Kingdom. And I have to ask – have you been excommunicated? If not, then why are you not at table with our Lord? Why would you not participated in that blessed fellowship? Every time we celebrate the Lord’s supper, we recall what He’s done, and the certainty of the Last Day and our own resurrection.

1 Like
31

Thank you, and Amen. Our God is good, He is at work, and blessed are those who are in on what He is up to!

2 Likes
32

Not that I\m aware of.

You speak medifphoritly, I await phyiscally. Of course, I participate in communion. However, I truly believe what the Word describes is physical. Sitting at the table with Jesus Himself. Looking Jesus in the eye, and he with you.

“Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Revelations 19:6-9

Also, here is when Jesus said this.

“I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,” Matthew 8:11

I believe that this is why Jesus made this statement.

“I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:29

Physical. Where is Jesus? Where are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? The end time is coming. However, I believe the Bible shows that it has not come yet.

Peter

33

i dunno, maybe just take time to tell people what you think is wrong with their theories etc, instead of saying they shouldnt even open their mouths to say what they have been thinking? just my opinrin :]

34

I actually have a dog in this fight, the five-year blank space at the beginning of my resume that resulted from taking “prophecy teaching” as Gospel.

It wasn’t then. It isn’t now.

When I first encountered the pre-trib pre-mil paradigm, and bought into it wholeheartedly, I was a wild-eyed, long-haired, apocalypse-crazed Jesus Freak. David Chilton captured the ethos of those days quite well:
[
I recall a “Jesus People” newspaper of the early 1970s which carried an interview with the most popular “prophecy expert” of those days. On the basis of the “fact” that Jesus was going to rapture His Church “at any moment,” this man actually counseled his young followers not to marry and raise families. After all, there was no time for that sort of thing. The Rapture was coming, so any work for dominion would be useless. (If you were the devil, could you devise a better, more “spiritual-sounding” excuse for Christians to abandon God’s plan for victory?) The “Rapture Ethic” of those years led many to leave school, jobs, families, and responsibility in general; flocks of Jesus People wandered aimlessly around the country, with no clear goal beyond the next Christian rock concert. It was years before many of them woke up, and it sometimes took years more to put their lives together again.

Chilton, Paradise Restored, pages 10-11:
]
During that time, I could not reason, think, or plan more than a week or two ahead.

As a friend pointed out, when I bewailed the five years of my vocational life that I’d lost to vain pursuits, “Tom, you were lucky. Many paid a far higher price.”

You may wonder why my icon shows me in academic regalia. Simple – note the wrinkles and gray hair, rather than the costume. And, of course, the manic grin. That is me at age 59, having just earned a PhD, so as to make the best possible use of the next 30-40 years I anticipate investing in my Lord’s service.

Your future profoundly affects your present. I have a bigger, brighter, and more meaningful future ahead of me at age 74 than I did at age 21.

Something about which to think …

2 Likes
35

Matthew 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Isaiah 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.

18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Romans 2:5-16
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish,upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first,and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

12 For as many as have sinned without law(the Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law(the Jews) shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before GOD, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the Day when GOD shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.-:(This Day arrived, the Lord’s Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium->Matthew 25:31-34, take a look, and 41 and 46.

Revelation 11:15-18

18->And the NATIONS were(will be)angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Be prepared or else get ready - Matthew 25:6-10

36

@Dr_S 1 of 3

That is tragic to hear. I can totally understand under much of the South Park like ways in which the 21st century church can operate as. where we can end up with some manner of mental machinations that leave us bruised. I’m reminded of the book The Tale of 3 Kings, and its masterful use in helping a very heavily fundamentalist saturated mindset that dominates over the West, be assuaged a bit.

Just a note on reference, I had been in the reformed camp for 25 years and have been out of it for a decade now. I mention this to note kind of where I am coming from. I believe there are things to appreciate about the reformed perspective. But the much larger percentage I would see as problematic. And some, rather gargantuan. But even so, it is typically my aim to practice love toward these differences. Admittedly not always easy for me. But i try…lol.

You mention Augustine. You also mention the Epic of Gilgamesh. This is the best place I believe to start in running something buy you that would be interesting as to how you might look upon them. For starters, I realize that I am putting forth outlier notions. So I realize how strange they may seem.

I think Augustine and Gilgamesh are good starting points because they are of the sphere of general revelation (not special revelation). In Augustine’s case I realize he dealt much with theology. But I would surmise them as general revelation as I would any commentary. My appeal in this is not to deplete significance of one like Augustine’s theology, but rather highlight the general revelation value of it. From which Calvin and the reformed camp much stems from. In some ways, in my estimation, much on general revelation. And in as much as I might differ significantly, I would bring this up not for theological difference, but for perhaps the place of general revelation (GR) in the church afforded.

At its worst, using GR as prophesy is a sloppy-joe too messy to actual eat. Granted. i am not a fan of the news-headlines as prophecy group. Although I am a futurist, and a dispensationist. But I believe there is quite a bit of wealth in the ways you encourage us to perceive as. I would construct that a little differently. But I would certainly concur in ways for sure (even with our eschatological differences).

MY SPECS ON THE CHURCH & ISRAEL

i don’t believe the church functions in the arena as prophet. In the sense of future telling. I believe that office was for Israel (in that I would see all authors of the bible to be Jewish, even Luke). The one exception would seem to be Nebuchadnezzar. Who seemed to have some sense of authorial place in Daniel 4.

The way I would see it is the church does not nor ever had prophets in future telling. Whereas I would see that to be afforded to Israel even in her partial hardening and unbelief. As I would see God use them as and end time Swiss Watch Clock through their returning to the land as well as in their political witness to the world. And primarily likely in an Ez 38 approaching sense.

Where we likely agree is I would see that the prophecy watcher movement of the church today to be under the influence that this office was given them. I don’t believe though that it has. Their focus on the beast system, the antichrist, and the coming tribulation (and how all things relate to that) I believe are forced interpretations. Not that i don’t believe their is “some” truth in it. Just that to make so much in our age of grace about the tribulation, to me, is a sure symptom they are out of their element. So on this we would agree.

IN WHAT WAY IS THE CHURCH OUTSIDE ITS ELEMENT

So the way I would see it is that there is a coming tribulation. But the church focus on it in the age of grace I believe tends to conflate the two as one. That the age of grace has to dovetail into the tribulation, therefore lets just look for all that connection, is the problem I see. I see this as a problem because i believe the age of grace is separate from week 69 and week 70 for Israel. And since the age the gentile church is in is not of either of those weeks, it is its own dispensation. But it does not seem like the church knows how to juxtapose those differences. Whereas I would see we must have a difference. And if a difference, then the age of grace is a season with its own ended apart from the tribulation being where it ends up. And this simple difference to me = a huge way different way to do eschatology.

37

@Dr_S 2 of 3

ESCHATOLOGY AS PROVIDENCE

So i think a better equipping of the church is that we are not prophets. But children of providence (because Israel rejected their messiah, Rom 9-11). And as children of providence (not prophecy) we are the bride to be of Christ. This likely is a greater office than prophet. But not the same as prophet. I would see that the church has some case of near sightedness, as a result.

Since we don’t have prophets today it would seem a reasonable way in which God has always worked is providentially. Through providence. To me, mistaking news headlines for prophesy is a categorical error or providence, not prophesy. An example i would ask your patients in entertaining (from the depths of preterist views you may hold) that perhaps we can see this actually providentially having taken shape over the course of some centuries.

Although I would have major concerns with reformed theology, I do my best not to let my bias cloud reality. In the 1700s Jonathan Edwards put forth his views on post-millennialism. Now even though I am not post-mil, there is something very obvious but also very precious to note about the man and his time. It seemed that in his era, missionary work exploded as a result. Matt 34:14 at least comes to mind when realizing the mammoth difference of missionary reach world wide. And it could be notice providentially that a major shift occurred. The irony is that post mil views seems to have proliferated conditions by which pretribbers find modern day context in.

– A 40 minute video overview of Jonathan Edwards for context. –

I believe we are alive at a time when we can see both possibilities. A golden age or and end time tribulation horizon. For each camp will dig in its heels and see what we do in all of it. But what I would stress here is that we don’t just have Edwards missionary advancements. We also have Israel. The notion of which generation meant would I believe be best made after 2048. Because at least in one instane, God uses “generation” as 100 years when referring to which number generation was Mosses to lead out of Egypt. But there may be indicators a lot closer than that to rule out.

38

@Dr_S 3 of 3

RULING OUT DISPENSATIONALISM

I have a certain perspective from mere study and 4th grade simpleton deduction about America having protected Israel for so many decades as not only historically accurate, but quite possibly common sense knowledge of perhaps how to understand a very simple trajectory of where this goes.

In the evangelical watcher world we see that there is an interest in the Abraham Accords as that covenant in which the antichrist strengthens. And they are also very sure America must collapse because its not in prophesy. BUT, what if instead of the book of Revelation being our furnace fire light by night as to where things are going, we instead use Ez 38 (being the most detailed prophesy on any one subject in the bible) a pilar of cloud by day–since we are the children of light according to 1 Thes 5? What if instead of looking to Revelation for age of grace occurrences answers, it is more like what happens to Israel. The dead in faith nation that is under partial hardening that in God’s providential hand could way out perform prophetic accuracy head and shoulders beyond the church watcher movements of the day?

In that sense the Abraham Accords to have far more to do with Israel arriving at peace and safety. Where they would need to be for Ez 38 to be fulfilling. While the church is looking for the AC and the downfall of America, what instead might actually be occurring is America being used by God (even in how He did through Edwards and his era in massively advancing missions). For was it not so that the Puritans eye on America was to be in their hearts a fulfilling of the great commission and the foundation of a new world that would organically subdue the land (politics, education, entertainment etc). For the post mil view is to prepare the world for Christ to return. To see that the church is to capture all segments of society and then Christ would return.

So if America not only belongs in prophesy but has already demonstrated her role both in fueling the latter day great commission likely of Matt 24, as well as be the powerhouse nation to protect Israel in her thickest of political waters, could not America not being in prophesy be merely a general revelation commentary the church has no business considering…in light of the true and real conditions of providence by which she refuses to stand on to see such a view?

So just as we might see the general revelation implications of Augustine and Gilgamesh, might we America, the reformation, and Israel? As well as perhaps a very unique condition: The Abraham Accords? These are not weak newspaper headlines. This is, providential. But with it much bias as any of us have for sure. Including me. Which is why I am asking what something like this might look like to you. Or any who wishes to comment.

So one near term way to tell is providential fuel likely burns in this direction, what we would expect to see likely is America not only being in prophesy but become even greater. Along with Israel. And likely for that very reason. And if that is providentially what is going down, then it would not be unlikely that both the Senate and the House in America flip entirely to super majority status in favor of Trump. Not that Trump politically is anything (if anything: a bias lightening rod for sure), but just that sloppy-joe Trump already did 3 major things beyond newspaper headlines: 1) Affirm Jerusalem. 2) Affirmed the Mountain Regions of Ez 38, The Golan Heights, for Israel. And 3) Affirm the Abraham Accords. Those are massive development that in my mind trump newspaper headline prophecy. But point in the direction of a super majority in both houses come Fall 2026. If that does occur, I am just saying for the sake of general revelation having a place beyond Augustine and Gilgamesh. That maybe its a pretty good indicator of why. Just saying. Blessings.