Is Jesus God Himself or One Person Within God?

I’m reposting something I shared earlier in the discussion, as it may have been passed over too quickly. I’d appreciate it if you could take a moment to read it carefully in full. If you see anything that is incorrect, please point it out and explain why. I’m also interested in where anything would require the conclusion of three eternal persons or three distinct centers of consciousness within God’s inner Being.

…Simply put — and I say this with trembling reverence — why would the eternal, self-existent, all-knowing, ever-present God, who lacks nothing and depends on no one, who loved His creation enough to form us from the dust and breathe into us the breath of life, and who foreknew our rebellion before the foundation of the world… why would that God send someone other than Himself to redeem us?

He knew we would fall. He knew sin would demand a price. He Himself declared that “the wages of sin is death.” He established the law that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. He declared through Isaiah that beside Him there is no Savior, that there was no God formed before Him nor would there be after Him, that He alone stretched forth the heavens and spread out the earth by Himself. If that is true — and I believe it with every fiber of my being — then who, exactly, could He possibly send that is not Himself? What other sinless, eternal, sovereign being exists to satisfy a justice that only He authored?

If salvation required a willing, spotless, substitutionary sacrifice, then that sacrifice could not be a third party. It could not be a created intermediary. It could not be a separate divine individual standing alongside Him. There is no such being. There is only God. And if there is only God, and if beside Him there is no Savior, then the Savior who bled must be Him manifested in flesh.

This is not rhetoric for me. This is worship. This is the burning core of my devotion. The God who thundered from Sinai did not delegate my redemption to another. The One who declared, “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour,” did not contradict Himself at Calvary. He did not send someone else to do what only He had the right and power to accomplish. He came Himself.

The mystery is not that there are multiple divine persons cooperating. The mystery — the breathtaking, staggering, incomprehensible mystery — is how the limitless could clothe Himself in limitation. How the omnipresent could dwell in a single human body. How the omniscient could genuinely grow in wisdom. How the eternal Word could hunger, thirst, weep, and bleed. How the God who fills heaven and earth could sleep in a boat and yet calm the storm with a word.

That is the mystery that moves me to tears.

It is the same God who spoke from the burning bush while remaining the infinite I AM. He was not divided then. He did not cease being omnipresent when He localized His voice in flame. He did not surrender His sovereignty when He manifested Himself in visible form. He revealed Himself without diminishing Himself. And in the fullness of time, He did something even greater — He did not merely speak through fire; He wrapped Himself in flesh.

The One enthroned above the cherubim lay in a manger.
The One who measures the waters in the hollow of His hand stretched those hands to be pierced.
The Judge of all the earth stood in silence before His accusers.
The Author of life tasted death.

Not because another divine person volunteered.
Not because He needed assistance.
But because He alone is Savior.

My heart longs for people to see this — not as a theological system, not as a debate point, but as the blazing revelation of divine love. God did not remain distant. He did not commission redemption from afar. He stepped into our bloodline. He bore our grief. He carried our sorrows. He satisfied His own justice with His own mercy.

There is one God. One Creator. One Lawgiver. One Savior. And the glory of the gospel is not that God sent someone else — it is that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

That is the mystery I bow before.

Not three thrones.
Not shared sovereignty.
Not divided divine consciousness.

One God — so great He fills eternity, so holy He cannot tolerate sin, so just He must punish it, and so loving He chose to bear that punishment Himself.

That is why I cannot speak casually about this. That is why my conviction runs deep. Because if beside Him there is no Savior, then the Savior with nail-scarred hands is none other than the one eternal God made manifest in flesh — and that revelation is not merely doctrine to me.

It is adoration.

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@The_Omega, you and I have that conviction in common that the ONE God fulfilled his own justice in coming to join humanity. God sent God to rescue us–wonder of wonders. As John expresses it, “Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth….Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

And the mystery for which I praise God is the mystery of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with one name in which we must baptize new disciples: Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

In that last verse, “name” is singular, while the objects of the word “of” are plural, a mystery that raises God above the level of human thought and reasoning.

Yes, the 3-in-1 God is a mystery who richly deserves our profound praise.

You’ve already been debunked with John 1:1 at clause #1 where it says “the Word” had a beginning. So, Bruce_Leiter, why are you giving me wash, rinse, and repeat?

And then you have the audacity to quote the Shema at Deuteronomy 6:4 which clearly says the Abrahamic God is one, as opposed to 3-in-1.

NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (theos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father.

And here, I’m not sharing links to dogmatic people…

Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Jhn_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Jhn_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).
The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Jhn_1:1, Jhn_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Jhn_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Jhn_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros. There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mrk_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Jhn_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.
And the Word was God (kai theos ēn ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ēn ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Jhn_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1Jn_4:16 ho theos agapē estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Jhn_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.

J.

You’re talking to me about context, Bruce_Lieter? Now, that’s a good one considering the fact you and the other Trinitarians in this thread refuse to pay attention to context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

Part of the context to John 1:1 debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus the son aka “the Word” was God in the Flesh. Notice below:

John 1:18 – Anderson New Testament
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him.”
NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.

J.

You’re having a hard enough time with regular scriptures, but you actually think you can cope with the book of Revelation which is full of symbolism, PeterC?

FYI: Whenever you see the double-titles “Lord God,” it ALWAYS refers to Jehovah / YHWH the Father. Your above quotation of Revelation 1:8 is from a Trinitarian Bible translation where the majority of the translators deliberately removed the Divine Name in order to confuse the gullible. Notice the same verse of scripture from the only Trinitarian Bible translation I could find where the translators had the decency to leave the Divine Name in its rightful place.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English – Revelation 1:8
“I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God, he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.”

NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

The rendering you cited from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English is not a historically grounded translation of the Greek text of Book of Revelation and it also introduces terms that are not present in the Greek manuscript tradition. A careful examination of the Greek text, the Septuagint, and the Hebrew background clarifies what the correct rendering should be.

First we examine the Greek text of ~Revelation 1:8. The standard critical Greek text reads

Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ
λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός
ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος
ὁ παντοκράτωρ

A literal lexical rendering is therefore.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

This wording reflects Greek alphabet symbolism. Ἄλφα is the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Ὦ (Omega) is the last. The expression therefore communicates totality and sovereignty over all time and existence.

Now compare this with the Old Testament background. The conceptual source of this formula comes from Book of Isaiah in the Hebrew Bible and its Greek translation in the Septuagint.

Isaiah 44:6 (Hebrew concept reflected in the LXX)

“I am the first and I am the last
besides me there is no god.”[1]

In the Septuagint this reads

ἐγώ εἰμι πρῶτος καὶ ἐγώ εἰμι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα

meaning

“I am the first and I am forever.”

The Book of Revelation intentionally draws from this Isaianic formula of divine self-identification and applies the alphabetic metaphor Alpha–Omega to express the same theological claim: God is the origin and the consummation of all reality.

Now consider the problematic elements in the rendering you cited.

The phrase “Alap and Tau” comes from the Aramaic alphabet (Aleph–Taw). However, the Greek text of Revelation does not contain Aramaic letters. It explicitly says Alpha and Omega, the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Substituting Aramaic letters is therefore an interpretive paraphrase rather than a translation.

The phrase “THE LORD JEHOVAH God” also does not reflect the Greek wording. The Greek text simply reads κύριος ὁ θεός, meaning “the Lord God.” The tetragrammaton (YHWH) is not written in the Greek manuscript tradition of Revelation.

A more accurate translation that respects the Greek text and its Old Testament background would therefore be

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Finally the title ὁ παντοκράτωρ (“the Almighty”) is a key term in Revelation and reflects the Greek used in the Septuagint to translate Hebrew יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת (“LORD of hosts”) or other expressions of divine sovereignty.

Thus…

The Greek text says Alpha and Omega, not Aleph and Tau.
The title is κύριος ὁ θεός (“Lord God”), not “Lord Jehovah.”
The formula derives conceptually from Isaiah’s “first and last” declarations in the Hebrew Bible and Septuagint.

[Uploading: image.png…](The Book of Revelation (The New International Commentary on the New Testament | NICNT) | Logos Bible Software)

The shorter reading “Omega” (ὦ, ō) has superior ms evidence (א1 A C 1611) to the longer reading which includes “the beginning and the end” (ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος or ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος, archē kai telos or hē archē kai to telos), found in א*,2 1854 2050 2329 2351 MajA lat bo. There is little reason why a scribe would have deleted the words, but their clarifying value and the fact that they harmonize with 21:6 indicate that they are a secondary addition to the text.

I’ll stay with my bible and what stands written.

J.


  1. Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.” - ESV ↩︎

No. You have already been debunked by your inability to read what is right there in front of you. It in no way says what you want it to say, so it’s already a moot point, proven false.

Says the person who cannot read a basic sentence.

Ok, let’s look at the Aramaic Peshitta. In Aramaic, the concept of “Alpha and Omega” is expressed as “Alap and Taw,” or the first and last letters of the Aramaic alphabet.

The Aramaic Text or Peshitta of Revelation 1:8. In the Peshitta, the verse reads roughly as: “I am Alap and Taw, says the Lord God, he who is, and was, and is to come, the Almighty.”

Verse 7 is clearly about Jesus: “He is coming with the clouds… even those who pierced him”. Verse 8 follows immediately. Since Jesus is the subject of the previous sentence, he remains the speaker in verse 8.

Later in Revelation 22:13, the same title “Alpha and Omega” is used, and in that context, the speaker is clearly Jesus, who says, “I am coming soon.”

The Aramaic “Lord God”: In the Peshitta, the term used is “Morya Alaha.” While this usually refers to the Father, some Aramaic scholars note that the New Testament writers often applied Old Testament titles for Yahweh directly to Jesus to show his divinity.

Interestingly, in the Aramaic Peshitta of Revelation 1:11, Jesus speaks and says, “I am Alap and Taw, the First and the Last.” Even if verse 8 is interpreted as the Father speaking, the Aramaic text attributes the same title to Jesus just a few verses later.

So you may have thought finding one verse in one Bible that many have never heard of would make you sound intelligent and that you know what you are talking about, but the text actually proves you incorrect. Nice try, though. I give you kudos.

Peter

I concur. Nevertheless, an inability to comprehend straightforward statements may present challenges for those seeking comprehensive theological understanding. This is merely a consideration.

Shalom

Peter

PeterC:

Revelation 1:8 refers to Almighty God Jehovah (the Father) as I clearly demonstrated to you when a quoted from a Trinitarian Bible. So if you think you can change that to mean someone else in a later chapter and/or verse–which is part of the exact same book and therefore within context–keep dreaming.

FYI: The originator of the message is Jehovah the Father. Below are the steps for how the message reached John. Watch the numbers 1 to 4 as I apply them below. You will see those same numbers repeated by me within the quotation of Revelation 1:1.

(1) Jesus the son received the message (2) from Jehovah the Father. Then (3) Jesus sent one of Jesus’ angel (4) to John. Jesus’ angel presented Jehovah’s message to John in symbolic language.

Below is the quotation from the Bible

“(1) A revelation by Jesus Christ, (2) which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And (3) he [Jesus] sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave (4) John,” (Revelation 1:1)

So if you want to keep insisting that the Alpha and Omega is Jesus himself despite the fact Jesus is not the originator of the message, suit yourself.

NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

Your “in the beginning” argument has been pretty thoroughly demolished. Clinging to it is not particularly prudent.

Actually, you were talking about the Aramaic Bible, of which I quoted from and proved you incorrect. Later chapters simply clarify. But if you want to believe it is as you wish it was, well, keep dreaming.

Ok and? This does not prove your point. It is pretty clear that it is Jesus talking. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

Peter

Here is proof Jesus is not God–John 10:14–If Jesus doesn’t obey his Fathers commands he will fall out of his love, the same for the followers if they do not obey Jesus they will fall out of his love.

I have a hard time remembering the oneness doctrine…
But I read:
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton son…this is something to Cry about, right?

Abraham believed God and He was giving up His son too.

Wasn’t Isaac part of His mother’s dna and part of His father’s dna?

Well then what about the word coming into the world
The mother’s dna and God…if the mother’s dna was used.

Which makes Jesus have a human Spirit - He is the living word… liken to the words on a book made human

Like the characters in the cartoon of Bill cosby jumping out the screen becoming human.

GOD AND His Word → are God which
would mean
GOD AND HIS SON Jesus → are God

It still is interesting that Jesus says I came not to do my will- what would His will have been? To preserve life in the flesh??? That would make sense.

So He does His Fathers will and gives up His life in the flesh.

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You are right, @NeutralZone, if you only believe that the Old Testament is inspired but not the New.

First, John 1:1 does NOT say that the Word had a beginning. It says that the Word and God existed in the beginning of creation with each other and also identified with one another.

Second, John 1:1 also says that the ”Word” was God in the beginning. Therefore, since God has no beginning, neither does the Word as God.

Third, I know that is the correct interpretation, because the following contexts of both verses describe the beginning and continuing of the making of the universe. They are parallel verses; John 1:1 illuminates and elaborates on Genesis 1:1 by saying that that ONE Creator has two entities, the Word and God, though the Word was also God.

Fourth, any attempt to reason out that mystery takes a person beyond Scripture into speculation, which invariably runs amuck of God’s truth. I accept the mystery of the Trinity. Why can’t you?

Verse 7 ends at Amen. Then Jehovah speaks, he is the only true living God=Father.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.”

Where in this verse does it indicate ANYTHING close to what you claim? If you are going to argue this.

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Lukie 22:42

Is there more proof that you could show us that would prove me wrong? Jesus knows the plain; remember, He could have stopped it at any time. He even said so.

“Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?" Matthew 26:53-54

No one took His life. No one raised Him from the dead by Himself. He is all man for the sacrifice and all God at the same time. Seperate but the same.

Peter

“John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand, he held seven stars; from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” Revelations 1:4-8

Six ends in Amen, did we change subjects? no. Seven ends in Amen. Does that change the subject? No. This is clearly Jesus being talked about and speaking.
Peter

John 15:10-14— This is the scripture i meant, sorry.