“Bingo!” says Bingo. Yes, that’s the whole issue. One can hold a dogmatic fundamentalist position and yet remain humble. It isn’t the dogmatic fundamentalist position that’s the problem. It’s the attitude that only my position has been informed (or “verified,” as @Rev12_11 says) by the Holy Spirit and thus anyone who disagrees is ipso facto wrong, end of discussion.
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This is the devotional I’m posting on Facebook tomorrow:
Truth and Grace
(John 1:14, NIV) The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
A few years ago a study was released saying that people who swear are more honest. I looked it up and saw articles from the University of Cambridge (UK), Psychology Today, and Cleveland Clinic, to name a few. These studies showed that, since they use fewer social filters, they tend to be more truthful.
I’d say what my personal opinion of that study is…but I don’t swear much.
It kind of bothers me when people say things like, “I’m just calling it as I see it,” or “I’m just blunt,” after they say something particularly vicious or mean. They justify their unkindness by calling it honesty.
As Christians, we strive to be more like Jesus, who (as John 1:14 states) “came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” Grace and Truth are both things we should use when dealing with other people, especially the unsaved.
You can share the Truth, but if you don’t do it with Grace, you come across as “judgmental” and harsh, which is no good for either your testimony or for the person you’re speaking to.
You can speak with Grace, but if you’re not sharing the Truth, you are being misleading, and can cause people to either fall away, or worse, follow the wrong teaching.
(John 8:10-11, NIV) Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
“No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
In the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery (John 8:1-11), Jesus acknowledged that what she did was wrong (v. 7). He knew the truth because he IS the Truth. While he saved her from being stoned, he didn’t tell her that everything was OK & she could just go on doing what she was doing (showing grace but no truth) or yell at her for what she did (showing truth but no grace). He corrected her, but with love.
“Go and sin no more.”
Truth AND grace.
(Colossians 4:6, NIV) Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
We should always share the Truth with love, giving Grace as God has given us Grace.
And our words should be seasoned with salt…but we shouldn’t be salty!
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So… getting back to the topic…
OK, since the Catholic article I linked was ignored, I will quote the following from it. Agree with it or not, what the Pope said was entirely consistent with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which obviously predates the current Pope. Beyond what this article says, Paragraphs 839 through 848 of the Catechism all deal with non-Christians: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3 (scborromeo.org).
Yes, it’s a more nuanced position than one would find in many Protestant denominations, and one is free to agree or disagree with it, but it’s absurd to suggest the Pope has gone off on some wild tangent and is playing God.
From the article, Did Pope Francis Just Say All Religions Are Equally True? – Benedictine College Media & Culture:
What I quoted above about salvation is from No. 846 of the Catechism. What comes right before it and right after it are also important.
Right before it, the Church teaches about truth in other faiths, and says about Muslims: “together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Right after it, the Catechism teaches that “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
Think of it this way: When we die, every one of us — each Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist — will face Jesus Christ, our king and judge. Some of us will embrace him; others will flee him.
Muslims may see in him the one God they love, or they may stick to what their religion gets wrong about God — the impossibility of the incarnation, for starters — and flee. Hindus may follow what their religion gets right about transcendence or what it gets wrong about reincarnation, and so on.
If any is saved, it will be through Christ, and their conformity to the conscience placed in them through him. If any is lost, it will be by rejecting Christ, and the conscience he gave them.
While I’m on a roll, Eastern Orthodoxy does not have a formal catechism, but the majority of Orthodox scholars hold to a position of inclusivism rather than exclusivism: An Orthodox Christian View of Non-Christian Religions - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (goarch.org).
Orthodoxy and Catholicism are obviously far older than Protestantism and account for just about exactly 60% of all Christians.
While that may be true on a global scale-- Here in the US, Protestants outnumber Catholics by a two-to-one margin. Orthodox Christians in the US don’t even make up one percent.
My only point being that the two oldest branches of Christianity, accounting for more than half of all believers, would not subscribe to @Rev12_11’s sentiments (nor, for that matter, would many Protestants). There is a parochial mindset that the L/I/F understanding is the “real Christianity,” whereas nothing could be further from the truth in terms of history and numbers.
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Christianity has been Americanized to a point it is seen as an intrinsic part of being American , and we only see believers from elsewhere as secondary, if we think of them at all. “Otherness” should never be what has become to many Americans : a Christian mindset. This is why we skew concerning prevalence of belief, and theological concepts.
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I sincerely promise you @Fritzpw_Admin & @Bingo : I’m absolutely not trying to come off that way. It would be pure blasphemy to say that I have exclusive access to the Holy Spirit. For with God there is no differentiation between man, woman, slave, or free man. I’m trying to come off as someone who has read the book, had the author verify my understanding of the book (through other believers, usually), and saying something when I see/hear something that doesn’t line up with it. Anybody can do it. Anybody can have their conclusions verified/rejected by the author. That’s happened to me more times than I can count. I don’t care if anybody agrees with me or not; I just care about whether they disagree with the Words of God. There is only one interpretation of any bible verse (I don’t claim to have that interpretation) but many applications (I’m terrible at finding those). Jesus said that He holds His Word higher than His name. He also said that His word will never pass away. Am I wrong for taking that literally and for declaring it? Like I said, anybody can do it. @WrenFaithBridger is right:
I do need to be working seasoning my words with salt without being salty myself. I’ll try harder to do that. Please pray for me.
Your methodology is very, very flawed.
In this forum you post a great deal. People point out your error I n these threads, and you have never admitted that you are wrong or that you possibly could be wrong. You can only be misunderstood.
Black and white thinking, aversion to higher education. Opinionated to the point of ad nauseam. And strangely devoted to Strongs. (a great source but not a nuanced explainer of words).
You have an Opportunity here to grasp concepts you are unfamiliar with, have your own beliefs challenged, and let a splash of reformer’s fire work in you.
But no, you got it all together. Those of us with decades in the faith, advanced knowledge of scripture and its many interpretations are all wrong. YOU know better. Jesus talks to you through scripture and You are the only one who can get it. Or those who agree with you.
A closed mind doesn’t grow. It withers on the vine of fundamentalism.
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I didn’t say that. I said I am misunderstood. I say one thing, and then somebody says how they interpreted it. Then I say that that’s not how I meant it. You have no idea how many times I’ve had to admit that I was wrong.
I have no aversion to higher education. I endorse it.
My mind isn’t closed; it’s guarded. I have a hard time trusting people, so I only accept things that come from God Himself. This is what @WrenFaithBridger did: she told me what God said. That’s why I accepted it without pushback. Everybody else is just telling me what they believe, but they fail to give me any biblical reason why.
That’s why I joined. I learned what Spiritual Abuse is. and the Warm Fuzzies. I’m still waiting for my beliefs to be challenged.
Ohhhhhh. @Fritzpw_Admin, @MrE , @Historyprof , there’s a communication error. I said,
I made it sound as if I arrive at a conclusion, and God says ‘correct’ every time I ask Him if I’m right. That’s totally not what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that whenever I arrive at a conclusion, I ask God if it’s correct or not. When it’s correct, He uses other believers to tell me so. If it’s no correct, He uses other believers to correct it. The latter happens more often than I would like to admit. He just recently refined my views on defending the faith. I thought that it wasn’t necessary to defend my faith or anything because God could defend Himself. But my dad pointed out Jude 1:3, “I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” I changed my views immediately. I’m not very good at explaining things, so instead of immediately responding to what I wrote, can you tell me how what I said sounded to you and ask if that’s what I meant? I would greatly appreciate that.
I’m also ‘strangely devoted’ to the Apostolic Bible Polyglot. Love that version for personal bible study. You should give it a read.
I found this article about Jesus being the only way:
Thought I’d throw it out there in case anyone is interested in further reading and how applies to the Pope’s statement as we’ve discussed so far.
The problems I have are:
First, Jesus says nothing like this anywhere except in John, which is historically suspect. Mark, Matthew and Luke missed this minor detail?
Second, even if Jesus said this, or something like this, why are we so confident that the only possible interpretation is dogmatic Christian exclusivity?
what happens between God and that individual is for only God to know.
I agree totally.
I just read Father Richard Rohr’s book Falling Upwards and he says the same of what you wrote.
I also believe Gods work is to draw all sinners to Himself. Our sin prevents us from seeking ( in most circumstances) God as it is diametrically opposed to God. How God draws us is individualistic. . .
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@Mr.Cath_Theo - I’d love to see your take on this topic and to see if my understanding of the catholic position is accurate.
If you don’t know Christ, haven’t accepted him as Lord and Savior, then you are indeed going to hell.
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I agree with that statement, and my guess is that the Pope would as well.
Considering this from a Catholic standpoint and mine, I believe his statement to be somewhat true. I have adopted the view that those who we consider “Protestants”, do not have the entirety of the truth, only a small shard of a mirror. We consider ourselves to have the entirety of the mirror, if not most of it. Therefore, I consider those who love God, if not live a good life, will surely go to heaven, for our God is a merciful one. However, what I say cannot be taken as, " I can be muslim and still go to Heaven," for only if you are ignorant of the Catholic faith, or have not heard the good news of Jesus Christ, may you still be saved.
If you die without Christ, you are too late.
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