Thank you for this response. Very interesting food for thought. I had never considered purgatory as something of a “bootcamp” or place to prepare to be with Christ. I haven’t thought about it enough to know whether I agree with your view or not, but whether purgatory is real or not, I think it’s safe to say that the idea of God refining us even through what we might call a “trial by fire” is a biblical concept.
Bootcamp is not a bad term. good as any i guess. trial by fire. another good way to take it. we know he baptizes with spirit and fire. so wherever the rich man was? it had him ready to preach the word. to help his family from making the same mistake. That shows remorse. And maybe you could say he was gnashing them teeth pretty hard.
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The bible teaches to us that we have eternal life right here and now, and we have been already justified and accepted in the beloved, so why the need for it?
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Agreed. That is why I said as long as you are saved, it really doesn’t matter.
Peter
If we have to be “purged” of something, does that mean that Christ’s death was insufficient?
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…and this is the heretofore missing thought; purgation!
Purgatory is the place of purging. Purging means “cleansing”, or “purification”, the removal of that which is impure.
in Roman Catholic theology, purgatory is the place of “purging”. It is where those who have died in “a state of grace” undergo limited torment to expiate their sins. In other words,it is believed to be a place (or condition) of temporal punishment for spiritual cleansing or purification after death, specifically for those souls who upon dying were penitent and ultimately destined for Heaven. A tortuous final bath, as it were.
Bro. @timf is right to bring this out. The idea that torment or punishment can redress sin speaks of another way, besides the sacrificial blood of Jesus, for a person to be atoned and brought into the eternal presence of Holy God. This idea of “another way” is unthinkable to the New Testament writers. The “Gospel” is the good news that Jesus alone is the expiation for our sin. There is no other way, not law, not penance, not purgatory. Paul writes:
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8-9
Thanx @Timf for bringing this point out into the light.
KP
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Would imply that the blood of Jesus was not sufficient to atoner for all sins
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It does also cause one to question the idea of people being consciously tormented in hell forever. If they have to make a payment, then one might say that what Jesus did on the cross was only partial.
If people suffer the second death in the Lake of fire in Revelation, it may be that the punishment lasts forever, not the punishing.
I would do the same thing that I do before sharing the gospel. I check for interest. If their mind is made up then it doesn’t matter much what I say. You could say something like, “That’s a nice thought but I think differently” and then leave it at that. If they want to know, they will ask. Never carry the conversation further than where they want to go. Never argue and keep love at the forefront. I hope that helps. I’m sure you’ll do great.
True.Purgatory is not Biblical.
It was invented to keep the Romans church empowered over their followers.
Purgatory revokes the Cross. And all Jesus accomplished with regard to Redemption.
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The way is to be described as the way to life. And few know it. But the way to eternal damnation is broad and many travel it. the way to life being jesus christ is narrow and few find it why? This states loud and clear! We know nothing.
@RGCheek, you have an interesting thought about Purgatory, but what direct biblical evidence do you have to support your idea? I see nothing in Scripture about that stage in our lives between our death and resurrection. Each of Jesus’ parables had a straightforward point to make about our relationship with God, but they make no obvious point about our existences beyond death.
The primary disagreement I have with the Catholics is that they have established a tradition that is separate from the Bible through the Popes that they believe in addition to it. The way I see it, all ideas must be compared and contrasted with the Scriptures, which are the only basis for our faith, not people’s pronouncements:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Really good to see you back in action @Bruce_Leiter
J.
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Yeah, @Johann, I had to move to another location. However, though I’m limited physically, God provided several very good friends to help me move. I’m very thankful to him and them.
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I was not preaching first of all. I was just reading. And from what I read Catholics have it all wrong. My thoughts were nought about teaching. But understanding. And I was just saying that how can anyone say that purgatory is a lie? There is definitely more scripture to suggest there is such a place than not me personally I’m not sure. But if one part of a house believes somthing maybe it is for a reason or why would it be here. I was just trying to express my thoughts on the ? At hand is purgatory real. I did not in no means try to say jesus is not sufficient. I don’t understand how my input was interpreted that way and honestly feel that was a attack on my being i have no denomination but I respect all they’re input. I’m just trying to learn. As for why I believe there is such a place such as pergatory is from scripture God said there was a place where there would be gnashing teeth is this he’ll why did jesus have to preach in a prison in the earth was this hell the story of Lazarus I thought was valid too because he sure was not in heaven was he in hell again I really don’t know it’s left to the imagination are all the Catholics wrong again I don’t know. But if they are they are teaching alot of people lies. But what if they knew somthing and they really do have it right what does that make me to say they are liars a blasphemer is what I would be I guess. All Christian denomination. Have different views and different beliefs to say one of these or more are wrong that’s saying the house is divided and will fall according to scripture. Would you say at this point Christianity is divided every Christian I’ve ever met believes in Jesus. So I came to the conclusion they are all right if they are not that would be to say he is not and his house will not stand. So I say hopefully there is a purgatory because it’s my understanding we all need correction
@Hungry, you can take or leave my advice, but here it is:
First, my first suggestion is that you attend and join a denominational or independent church that preaches and teaches the Bible alone.
Second, then join a small group in that church that discusses the Bible to get people’s different ways of applying the Bible to our lives.
Third, since I have a tough time deciphering your meaning because you tend to run your sentences together, I suggest that you find an English grammar book that will help you write English in a more understandable way for clearer communication with us.
Fourth, I say all this in the Spirit of brotherly love as a former English teacher and pastor.
Sounds like good advice for anyone. Thank you for that. I always wanted to go to a college. sorry about my gamer too. I was self tought.if you could explain what you did not understand about what I was saying I would be more than happy to try to explain it better.
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Hello @Hungry !
I tend to think that, based on the weight of many scriptures, purgatory is not something to be concerned about.
Your larger point concerns sincere differences of beliefs within the church, because, as you say, there are about a billion differences of conviction in the church. Hence we have all the different denominations and so on.
Jesus is the unifier, the foundation, and the common glue that holds it all together. And He is more than able to keep the house standing. The very gates of hell will not prevail against His church!
I remember as a child, wondering just how the heck my Dad always knew how to drive to wherever we were going. I mean, how in the world did he know what turns to take to get there? And how was I ever going to be able to get anywhere, since I had no idea what turns to take? Honestly, I was pretty worried about it.
There are many things that we don’t know and won’t know until we see for ourselves. But there are also many things we do know for a certainty. Like God loves His children, and He is working for our good in all things. It’s not productive to get overly up in arms about things that just are not clear.
Let the God of peace give you peace and joy in midst of your life. I sort of think we are already in a sort of purgatory right now ha ha. Part of the purpose of this life is to teach us the folly of sin. It never ever pays brother, and hopefully we learn that truth.
So, we can rest our minds on it. You’re not a blasphemer. The church is not falling. God loves all who put their trust in Christ. All of our questions will be answered in full.
Your brother
I too was raised in the Catholic church. Thankfully, I left Catholicism in my early 30’s. I now follow the Protestant branch of Christianity. However, with regards to purgatory, I don’t recall hearing many Catholic sermons about purgatory. My personal thoughts on purgatory is that it’s a temporary holding place for unsaved souls. I think purgatory is to Catholics what hell is to Protestants. I believe them to be one in the same and the final desitnation is the lake of fire which alludes back to the fact that purgatory/hell is a temporary holding place. The word “purgatory” does not appear in the Christian bible.
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Aside from whether purgatory is Biblical - There are lots of depictions of purgatory-like places in modern art and film. The first that always comes to mind is a movie called “Heaven Can Wait.” It came out in 1943 and starred Don Ameche. It’s about a man who dies and assumes that since he lived the life of a “rascal” he is meant to go to hell. So, he arrives in the lobby to tell his life story before being allowed to enter (or exit, to go to heaven).