Is This NOT a Problem?

Current Events
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Check out this article I just saw over at the Christian Post. "Fewer Protestants vocal about their faith in public, study reveals" According to the article:

“A growing share of Protestant churchgoers in the U.S. say many people aren’t aware that they’re Christians. Still, a majority of them wouldn’t hesitate to let non-Christians know where they stand on their faith, according to a new Lifeway Research study.”

Wait, wait, is this NOT a problem? Seriously?

“Ideally, a Christian would be talking about their relationship with Jesus Christ, not as something they have to say, but as an overflow of their love for Him and His impact on their lives. The honesty of churchgoers about gaps in living unashamedly reveals large numbers have room for growth in this important aspect of discipleship,” Scott McConnell, executive director of Lifeway Research, said in a statement on the study.

“It can be very easy to compartmentalize our lives. We have work friends, neighborhood friends, church friends, and friends we meet up with for fun who may not overlap,” added McConnell. “The discipleship question is whether Jesus Christ is in all of these parts of our lives as part of our core identity as a follower of Christ.”

Folks, if you are living your life, or a life, any life, where people can not see you as any different than any other “lost soul,” then I would be asking myself, “Am I truly saved?” If you are not living in a way that is different than the world, and you are not producing fruit for the Kingdom, then what?

“Protestant churchgoers were also almost equally resistant to the statement that “Many aspects of who I am have nothing to do with God.” A healthy 61% of them somewhat or strongly disagree. Another 21% strongly or somewhat agree, while 18% neither agree nor disagree.”

Ah, yes, compartmentalization. My life is over here, and church on Sundays. Brother Bob comes over after church, and he probably would not recognize that I’m even the same person He sees in church. I’m sorry, but that really bugs me.

What say you? Is compartmentalization ok when it comes to your salvation? Or do you think we have to do better for God?
Peter

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Excellent article, and yes, I agree, hard questions need to be asked, for “iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another” (Proverbs 27:17 ESV). We are also told to “test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21 ESV) and to “contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3 ESV).

That said, brother @PeterC, we should also remember that this is an online forum and not the church itself. Scripture teaches that the local church is where believers gather in fellowship, worship, prayer, breaking of bread, discipleship, and shepherding under elders (Acts 2:42; Hebrews 10:24–25; Ephesians 4:11–16).

Forums can be useful for discussion, but they are not a substitute for the body of Christ living in communion together.

You agree?

J.

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I think there is probably a balance here.

On one hand, if faith never influences how we live, treat people, make decisions, or respond to life, then yes, I do think that is worth reflecting on honestly.

But at the same time, not everyone expresses faith outwardly in the same way. Some people are naturally very vocal, while others are quieter, more reserved, or simply try to live their beliefs consistently through their actions.

I also think there is a difference between compartmentalizing faith and simply being respectful or discerning about when and how to talk about it. Not every environment is equally open to spiritual conversations.

Ideally though, I agree that faith probably should not feel like something that only exists for one hour on Sunday.

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I have to wonder what a protestant churchgoer actually is.

This is so very true. Typically God’s people can’t download church.

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@PeterC

As I read your post, I became conflicted in what issue you were having issue with. The topic title is “This is not a problem” but then you sort of switched gears (maybe I’m wrong), posed “the problem”, and then asked:

I understand where you started out as suggesting that testimonial living is normal Christian living; testimonial living is “not a problem”, as you said. Testimonial living is genuine, an honest expression of the reality we are born into, a normal lifestyle of one who is born from above. Where I recoil is when the voices of people who profess to be born from above are consistently characterized as accusing the brethren of some infraction. This seems to be the tenor of the article from which you are quoting (although, I don’t really know, I have not read the whole article, so I am trying to not accuse my brethren of being accusatory, which would be ironic.) I point out that we have an active and able accuser, and we do not need to do his work for him (see Rev 12:10).

I commiserate with your unease at witnessing what you are calling “compartmentalization”, but what Jesus called “hypocrisy”. This is a popular and uneasy reality of living in community as a bunch of growing, unfinished saints; we are all growing, unfinished saints. We all find ourselves ostensibly called to leave the perceived safety of the worlds dock and step fully into the slightly-rocking boat called faith. Our innate survival mechanisms plead with us to remain securely on the earth-bound dock while the voice of our Loving Heavenly Father holds his hand out to us from the boat. The entire “Church” can be visualized as many newly born saints with one foot on the dock and one foot in the boat. If you have personally grown into placing more weight on the foot in the boat and less weight on your foot on the dock, and so you find yourself slightly more “in the boat” than your brother, the fearful reluctant brother who “really bugs you”, the advanced position you find yourself in is a pure gift to you, something you can take no real credit for. The person who believes their advanced position of being “more in the boat” is to their credit, and by thier own hard work and sacrifice, is the same person who still wears a large beam lodged in their eye.

When I read an article written by an author who seems confident in doing the work of the accuser, I (should) ask our Father to unglue my foot from the dock so I can be freed to encourage others do the same. I too have one foot over there on that infernal dock that I’m having a hard time dislodging, but I also have my hand firmly in the hand of The Master of The Sea, who continually bids me “C’mon, step in fully. You can’t imagine where we are headed once everyone is in and we push off for open water."

Let’s you and I make pleading with The Captain of our Salvation for His assistance in helping us unglue from the dock and fully commit to the boat as a positive testimony to His Loving call.

We’re all in this boat together.
KP

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What a great question! I have recently purchased a book, “The Practice of the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence. This book was written in the 1600’s by Brother Lawrence. He never sought to publish his little, beautiful, inspiring book. It wasn’t until after he died that his friend published it, and this little book has endured over the centuries.

What this little book is teaching me is that all aspects of life, of my life, of your life, ALL have to do with God. Every single moment can become an act of worship and love, from washing pots and pans, to emptying garbages, to folding laundry, flipping a burger, acquiring that huge client for the firm, driving a truck, a cab, being a stay-at-home parent..you name it. Throughout our days we live ordinary lives and have many mundane and routine tasks to accomplish. Brother Lawrence invites God into those every day moments. I have begun to do this as well. It isn’t easy, that’s for sure, but it gets easier day by day.

I encourage everyone to read this little book, or find the devotional at the Bible App from You Version. It has made a SIGNIFICANT difference in my life!

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Yes, I understand what you are saying and mostly agree. If one can attend, and/or there is a local church that is Jesus-centered, Bible-saturated, truth-oriented, Holy Spirit-filled, theologically conservative, mission-focused, and teaching the Truth according to God, then yes, by all means. This would not be a substitute.

It is good to be present, have a Pastor to lead and teach, and a physical family of Mothers, Fathers, Sisters and Brothers, Grandparents, and the like, to do life with you. However, if there is not, or the person, for whatever reason, cannot get to church, then I do see this as an alternative.

Is this statement more true, “Jesus is Lord,” coming from a pulpit at Hope Church, or if it comes from me here? If the statement, “God so loved the world, that He,” comes from you here, is it less important or relative than if Pastor Jason at Ascent Church says it?

An invalid. prisoner, invalid, or for some other reason, “Agoraphobia," or the like, then I see no reason they cannot learn from, be comforted, celebrated with, and do life here with fellow brothers and sisters. Mothers, fathers, grandparents, and such.

Where are they going to get another Johann, or Peter, Joanne, or Kpuff, etc?
Peter

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Absolutely. God knows you. He understands our limitations and our strengths. He gives all a gift to use. Some can get on a stage with a thousand people watching, and others would rather hand out a track or a prewritten invitation to church. Some can walk up and ask, “Do you know Jesus?” and some are better at doing things “behind the scenes,” like buying someone a coffee or shaking their hand and saying, “Be blessed.”

"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many.

If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable, we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require.

But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individual members of it." I Corinthians 12:12-27

However, it is never a good idea to think to oneself, " Hey, I got mine, all good," and do nothing.
Peter

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I think you may have misread this. "Is this NOT a Problem? Kinda changes the point.

Which is not what I said. I was pointing out that the problem IS someone who claims to be Christian, but only seems to be on Sundays, and the rest of the time they live as a fleshly member of the world. Producing no fruit.

Yes, this is not what the article was about. Yes, we need to take the speck out of our eye before removing the plank from our brother’s. However, you do not feel we should advise someone claiming to be a “Christian” what the Bible says about doing God’s Works, and not just showing up on Sundays?

Correct.

Yes. So what if someone does not understand this? Should we not inform them?

Not true.

Amen. However, sometimes you have to point out to someone that there is a boat.
Peter

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Definitely sounds like a great book. I will have to check it out. Assuming I can get a copy online? Amazon or such? Thanks for sharing.
Peter

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@PeterC
My apologies. I don’t know how I did that. I did read the title as “This is NOT a problem”, which led to my misunderstanding. How did I do that? I don’t know.

Again, sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. I think I get it now.

KP

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@PeterC yes..Amazon. :grin:

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For what it’s worth, I’d advise against reading this book. I have read it, and there are at least 3 crucial contexts where Nicholas Herman’s spiritual world-view fails really badly.

The devotional lifestyle this book describes clearly doesn’t feature the centrality of Christ. This is partly a telltale sign of the distorted dogma that unavoidably overshadows monastic life. In no sense does God intend for anyone to be cloistered in a holy order. Such a religious life is the polar opposite of how the believer’s lifestyle should look. But it certainly must have coloured Herman’s daily experiences.

It’s fair to honestly question if he have regular access to a Bible as he developed his thoughts and wrote his letters. There’s certainly no overt sign of it. Being educated in the mid-17th century by a parish priest I personally doubt if the Scriptures where ever a priority in his thinking. (His early “conversion” experience is a cause for concern too.)

Predictably then, the book’s opinions, advice and somewhat monotonous recurring theme aren’t shaped by Scripture truths and references. Any written work that true believers read should be clearly grounded in the authority of sound Bible teaching because only God’s words are theópneustos, God-breathed. God’s authoritative, living and powerful truth will encourage us to build our lives around Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. This isn’t the foundation of Herman’s beliefs. It certainly doesn’t characterise the text of this book.

Also tellingly, The Practice of the Presence of God fails to properly acknowledge how the Holy Spirit crucially works in us to conform us to God’s will as we follow Christ and obey His commandments. This truth should be alluded to constructively in a book that deals with an all-consuming, contented devotion to God, even through times of suffering. But I wouldn’t expect Herman to have that insight.

We can do much better than The Practice of the Presence of God.

Try instead The Art of Divine Contentment by Thomas Watson. The contrast couldn’t be more pronounced. Watson’s book is available in a modern language edition (prepared by Jason Roth). An audio version is also available for free from Scroll Reader.