My Beliefs -- Are They Really "Against God?"

Theology
21

I appreciate the different perspectives shared here. While I understand the viewpoint that salvation is entirely God’s work, I also believe the Bible presents the idea of human choice and response to God’s grace. I find it difficult to reconcile the notion of no choice with the clear call to repentance and faith found throughout Scripture. It seems to me that both God’s initiative and human response are essential aspects of salvation, a testament to God’s boundless love.

The entire Bible is about choice. The entire Bible is there to instruct, teach, and grow in faith. If man has no choice, then these make no sense at all.

" Jesus said, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15

“The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” Acts 17:30

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3:20

This imagery suggests that while Christ initiates the contact, the individual must “open the door.”

John 3:16-18 Whoever believes. Whoever does not believe. If salvation were restricted by a lack of human choice, the biblical invitations to “all” or “whosoever” would be misleading.

“For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

I believe that the Bible provides examples where God desires a specific outcome (salvation or obedience), but humans exercise their will to refuse it.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Matthew 23:37

“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.” Acts 7:51

What about the warnings? The existence of warnings against falling away or failing to persevere suggests that human choice remains active even after the initial moment of faith.

“Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.” Hebrews 3:12

“Paul states that Christ will present you holy and blameless 'if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast.” Colossians 1:22-23

If we have no choice, then we can’t fall away. We can’t be saved. We can only exist the way God says we do. Saved or unsaved. If this is the case, then it also matters not what we do. If we were born to burn, then that is what we will do. If we were born to live, then THAT is what we do.
Am I arguing works? No, of course not. However, if after you are saved, you produce no works, I would check myself.

I really do not think you are going to convince me that Susie, Bill, and Tom are on their way to hell because God simply chose them to be. That they simply did not make the cut. Like some sort of Heaven’s Got Talent.

Shalom, my friend.
Peter

22

Wanting to understand yourself and feeling deeply connected to creation doesn’t make you evil or beyond God’s grace. But Christianity does not teach reincarnation or animal-to-human past lives. Scripture teaches that each person is created uniquely by God and lives one earthly life before judgment.

It may help to ask yourself whether these beliefs are drawing you closer to Christ and truth, or becoming a spiritual identity apart from Him…God’s creation can absolutely point us to His beauty and character, but worship, meaning, and identity belong to God alone.

3 Likes
23

The wrath of a holy YHWH is PRESENTLY abiding upon all unbelievers @PeterC and I think I would rather submit to the whole counsel as stands written.

(1) God made Hell because of who he is - holy, holy, holy (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8) - and thus is too pure to look upon sin (Hab 1:13).

(2) God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and while he spoke more concerning Heaven than he did Hell, in his holiness and honesty Jesus spoke about Hell (i.e. Gehenna) a considerable amount of times too - since he is the Word, Jesus is actually the author of every usage of Hell in the Bible (Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; parallels to the same; Matt 7:21-23; 8:12; 13:42; 24:29-31, 45-51; 25:30-32, 41-46; Rev 2:11, etc.).

(3) God is the Judge and sends the unsaved to Hell (Matt 25:41; 2 Pet 2:4, 9).Contrary to your teaching brother.

(4) In another sense, people send themselves to Hell, as they willing sin against God (Rom 2:5; 3:23; 1 Cor 6:9).

(5) Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), but Satan’s seed (Gen 3:15) will spend eternity there as well (Rev 20:14).

(6) Hell is a place where one can never stop sinning (Rom 8:7-8; Rev 21:8; 22:14-15). Since the sinners in Hell keep sinning there is perpetual punishment.

(7) Hell is a waterless place with no exit (Luke 16:24-26).

(8) Hell is a bottomless pit (Rev 20:1).

(9) Hell is a lake of fire into which the wicked will be cast alive forever (Rev 19:20; 20:15).

(10) Hell is a place of eternal torments (Luke 16:23).

(11) Hell is a place of everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46).

(12) Hell is a place of everlasting destruction from the presence of God (2 Thess 1:6-10).

(13) Hell is a place of being cut into pieces (Matt 24:51).

(14) Hell is a place where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).

(15) Hell is a place of outer darkness, of weeping, and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30).

(16) It’s not enough for God to take us out of Hell; he must remove Hell out of us; and thus he sent his only begotten Son to die for the sins of his people (Rom 5:8; Jude 1:23; John 1:29).

While many of the descriptions of Hell in Scripture may be meant to be interpreted figuratively, the reality these divine images point too are meant to be understood by us to be more - not less - than the word pictures can themselves depict to our finite minds. Hell is for real!

However, the doctrine of Hell is under attack by those not willing to submit to the authority of God’s Word and fear the existence of an eternal Hell. Their false doctrine is called “Annihilationism.” Ultimately, if these tormentors of Scripture remain unrepentant, they will be among the eternally tormented.

The Heresy of Annihilationism:
Annihilationism
One Small Step Out of the Gospel, One Gigantic Leap Into Hell

A general definition of Annihilationism (“extinctionism” or “destructionism”) is that after people have paid a penalty for their sins, they will be completely obliterated or cease to exist. Or, the annihilation view of Hell contends that there will be irreversible terrible and horrific punishment for the reprobate; those who don’t know Christ. This punishment may last for a period of time, but ultimately it will end. The reprobate will simply pass out of existence; they will not be punished forever and ever.

Some of the false denominations that teach a form of Annihilationism include: Christadelphians, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, and Seventh-day Adventists. Some other theologians are also campaigning against the historic doctrine of an eternal Hell; such as Philip E. Hughes, John Stott, and John W. Wenham, Michael Green, et. al.

When one begins to study Annihilationism, they will soon discover that there are different nuances to the doctrine. These may be discussed within five basic categories of which I will only give a brief snapshot view of below:

(1) Immediate Annihilationism View: It represents those that believe that upon death a person goes completely out of existence; there is no afterlife for anyone.
This heretical view has numerous problems. Among them: (1) it does away with the clear endless judgment of God which is spoken of in Scripture (Acts 17:31; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:11-15); (2) if saints go out of existence this does away with the need of the new heavens and new earth (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:1); and (3) what purpose do the saint’s crowns serve, if they simply go out of existence? (1 Cor 9:24-25; 1 Thess 2:19; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4; Rev 2:10), etc.

(2) Immediate Universalist View: It aserts everyone will live a life of eternal bliss.

This view is heretical as well. Its errors include: (1) the removal of the clear endless judgment of God which is spoken of in Scripture (Acts 17:31; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:11-15); (2) it assumes that God rewards the wicked who hate him (Psa 10:3, 4, 13); and (3) it makes Jesus a liar (Matt 7:21-23; 10:28; John 3:7), etc.

(3) Postponed Universalism View: It maintains that at the resurrection everyone will be given eternal life.

This heretical view does away with:
(1) the clear endless judgment of God which is spoken about in Scripture (Acts 17:31; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:11-15);
(2) the truth that the wrath of God remains upon the wicked (John 3:36); and
(3) the “great chasm [that] has been fixed” between the righteous and the wicked (Luke 16:26); since the wicked can’t cross over a life of bliss for them is impossible, etc.
Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr.

Shalom.

J.

24

We agree, then disagree, and reformed doctrine does NOT deny “choosing” brother. You promulgate a doctrine that YHWH is all love, not considering the other side of the same coin.

J.

25

that whoever believes (pas ho pisteuon)

Houtos gar egapesen ho Theos ton kosmon, hoste ton Huion ton monogene edoken, hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletai all eche zoen aionion.

pas ho pisteuon, in bold above, is the Greek phrase which we normally read in our Bibles as “whosoever believes.” However, as any Bible student can see there is no word in the Greek text which means “whosoever” (hostis = “whosoever” and is only used by John in John 8:52; 21:25; 1 John 1:2).

Hostis" is not in John 3:16 in any Greek text I have examined (Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus, Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus, Byzantine Majority, Alexandrian, NA27, NA28, The Greek New Testament: SBL edition, etc.). Note, that the Greek phrase “pas ho pisteuon” is also used in John 3:15; 12:46; Acts 13:39; Romans 10:11; 1 John 5:1. Its use in each of these verses can be properly translated as “all the believing ones into him.” Why? The word pas is translated as “all,” “the whole” or “every kind of” and it modifies “ho pisteuon.”

John was a Jew. A Hebrew. “Jews” (Ioudaioi) is used 71 times in his Gospel, as compared to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which only mention the word 16 times. So, comparably where was John’s emphasis? Who was his primary audience? The Jews, or the Hebrews. The beginning of a John 3 mentions Nicodemus, “a ruler of the Jews” (John 3:1). So, what Jesus is doing is teaching his audience that salvation is not only for “all the believing” Jews, but also for “all the believing” Gentiles (Isa 49:6; Zech 2:11; Acts 28:28; Rom 3:29-30; 10:12; Gal 3:28; Eph 3:6; Col 3:11).

As if to re-emphasize the point, Jesus ministered to the Samaritan woman (a Gentile) in the very next chapter (John 4). “Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did”” (John 4:39).

So, the text should read, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that the believing ones [both Jews and Gentiles] into him should not perish but have eternal life.”

in him (eis auton)

Believe in who? “In him” (cf. John 3:15). This refers to “his only Son”(John 3:16; cf. John 1:18; 1 John 4:9) the “Son of man” (John 3:13-14) - Jesus Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus earlier, “unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God,” “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” - “You must be born again” (John 3:3, 5, 7). Born again to believe what? Believe that the Son of man was lifted upon the Cross, died, rose again, and ascended into heaven (John 3:13-14; 1 Cor 15:1-4). Note that in the order of the text: regeneration (John 3:1-8) is followed by faith (John 3:13-14).

As John wrote, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:36; 1 John 5:11).
Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr.

Joh 3:16 Thus For Loves The God The world so-that The Son Of-him11 The only-begotten He-gives That Every The one-believing Into HimNo21 should-be-perishing22 But23 May-be-having24 Life25 Eonian26

Make sense?

J.

26

Well? Does God reject those who have sinned and refused to repent and receive Christ? Oof course. I suppose you could say God sends people there, from a certain point of view.

Which is what I have always taught. When did I teach differently? Seems we agree?

Then you kinda went down a rabbit hole, brother. I never once said Hell is not real. I would love to believe in annihilation. However, I’m not convinced that is Biblical. That would indeed be merciful of God, but I also see many places where Hell is eternal. Either way, it is not a place you want to go.

The Devil is real. Hell is real. The Word of God is Truth. I’m pretty sure we agree. Thanks for taking the time to illustrate that Hell is real. It is an educational read for those who may not know what Hell is.
Peter

27

I am REALLY confused. Could you clarify when I said anything like what you are claiming?

Oh, and on a side note. I try never to use the phrase “God is Love.” Saying this can distort our understanding of His character. If we define God solely by love, we risk creating a version of God that aligns with our limited human understanding of love. It can indeed “rule out” things like Hell. Why? If God is love, then He would never send anyone there. God is a loving God, of course. But He is a just God as well.
Peter

28

Now we get into semantics. Whoever, anyone, everyone, all, all believing in Him, is the same as “whoever.” All not believing in Him is the same as “whoever.” I’m pretty sure that it does not change the fact of whoever.

Of course?

Yes. Perhaps you are trying to see the forest through the trees? I do not believe we disagree.
Peter

29

@PeterC, could we make this less about me or what I “see,” and instead focus on the Scriptures themselves and what the text actually says? I’m sorry if it comes across as “semantics” or trying to “see the forest through the trees,” but my aim is simply to pay careful attention to the wording, context, and meaning of the passage.

J.

30

Cool. There is nothing wrong with that. It just seemed like you thought we disagreed, and I’m not sure we do. You most definitely illustrated it better. More indept. I appreciate that.
Peter

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31

finally, someone who’s not villainizing me for my beliefs.

i am aware.

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32

just because i am a follower of buddha’s ways does not make me a worshipper of him. just get off my backside and leave me alone, respectfully.

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33

@PeterC, you have bumped up to the mystery of God’s plans for every event and humans’ complete responsibility to trust in God as our Creator, Savior, and Sanctifier. Both are true. It’s a mystery how they interact, so I think that we must submit our reasoning to God’s Word and accept what the Bible says about those two truths without trying to solve them, simply because God’s Word does not solve them. Joseph says it well to his brothers, who have sold him into slavery:

Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.” He reflects both emphases of the Bible well.

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