Nice. I like it. Welcome back also.
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Heyy @KPuffâŠ
Ephesians 2, especially in 4-10 verses emphasizes that salvation is âby grace, through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boastâ. Verse 10 adds that believers are Godâs workmanship, âcreated in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to doâ, and these statements do affirm the priority and sufficency of grace against any notion that humans earn or merit initial salvation, but the question is whether the text requires or implies that this grace guarantees final perserverance irrespective of continued response.
The passage doesnt address the possibility of subsequent turning away. It establishes the foundation and purpose of salvation, that union with Christ that produces fruit but does not declare that the union is unbreakable once established. The immediate context highlights the transition from death to life and the resulting new creation oriented toward good works. Later biblical text, addressed to those already incorporated into Christ, introduce warnings that presuppose real vulnerability. These include exhortation to continue in faith, to endure and to guard against an evil, unbelieveing heart that could lead one to fall away from the living God.
I affirm that the entirety of salvation from initiation to completion is grounded in divine grace. Faith itself is enabled by grace; the capacity to respond is a gift. At the same time, the human person, created in the image of the relational triune God, is not a passive object. Grace does not operate by overriding or replacing the will but by healing, elevating and perfecting it so that the will can freely cooperate. This cooperative dynamic, often termed synergy, means that Godâs work is always primary and enabling, while the human response is the necessary mode by which that work is personally appropriated and sustained.
If salvation were understood as a unilateral decree that fixes the final outcome regardless of later orientation of the will, the numerous New Testament warnings addressed to believers would lose their force. These textsdo not merely encourage moral improvement or greater rewards; they speak of the possibility of severing from Christ, of falling from grace, and of a state in which renewal to repentance becomes impossible after certain forms of apostasy. Such language is directed to those who have already been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit.
The consistent biblical pattern is that covenant relationship, while initiated and sustained by Godâs faithfulness, can be ruptured by persistent unfaithfulness on the human side. God does not reverse His own promises, but the reception and continuance of those promises occur within a living union that requires ongoing abiding
Yet the New testament frequently employs images of growth, abiding, running a race, and enduring to the end, images that presuppose continued engagement within the life already given. Being âborn from aboveâ initiates a new reality but that reality is described as a vine-and-branch relationship in which branches are genuinely joined to the vine can still be cut off if they bear no fruit.
This understanding avoids two extremes. It does not reduce salvation to human maintainance or a contract that the believer must perpetually renegotiate through perfect performance. Grace remains the sole source and power. Nor does it treat the beliver as a passive recipient whose final destiny is sealed irrespective of the direction of the healed will. Instead it presents salvation as theosis, the real, progressive participation in the divine life that begins as a pure gift, continues through the synergy of grace and freedom, and reaches its fulfillment in those who endure in communion with Christ.
In this light, the doctrine of unconditional eternal security does not follow as the only rational position for those who attribute salvation wholly to God. Rather, the consistent attribution of all saving power to God is compatible with the reality that He has created persons capable of entering and through the misuse of restored freedom, of turning from the communion He offers.
The depth of divine love is shown not in guaranteering an outcome that eliminates risk but in inviting creatures into a relationship so real that their response matters eternally.
I thought you were going to argue, as Iâve heard before, that if we couldnât achieve salvation, we of course cannot âwork toward Heaven.â Then, apparently, we wouldnât be able to maintain this new covenant. Being so acceptable to sin, if we were left to our own free will, we would surely lose our salvation. This is why God made OSAS true.
But then you said this.
And sadly, this is why I am very concerned for people like mine and @Bruce_Leiter s kids.
Peter
Thank you for sharing. This is why I would LOVE to believe in OSAS.
Peter
Amen. It is like this. Iâm not, but for this story, Iâm rich. I have 4 children. Big house, much freedom to do whatever. We see Joe Schmoe in some third would cespool. We go to him and say âHello. We are opening our doors and inviting you in. I will adopt you. You will be the same as my children. They get this, you get this. They go here. You go here. You have the same benefits as my born children do. As long as you follow my rules and do what I ask.â
It is great. I have another son. For the first time in his life, he has a Father. So what happens if he walks away? Lives with my family and me for like a year, or even 5, then decides he is not happy. He thinks my rules are dumb, and decides he wants nothing to do with any of it. He leaves me and my house and goes off. Travels far away. He is no longer here. No longer part of my family. No longer under my grace and ability to save him, all through HIS decision. Not mine. Look at the story of the wayward son.
âNot many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.â Luke 15:13-16
Notice the Father gave him the desires of his heart. He left. Notice how, while going through all this, the Father did nothing to help him? It was not until he came back that the Father rejoiced. What would have happened if he had not come back? He would have died doing his own will. The Father would not have been able to help him.
PLEASE, somebody, prove me wrong.
Peter
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Thanx for your responses to my contribution. Unfortunately, I donât think either of you understood the point I was making, at least it seems that way to me by your reactions. I can be dense sometimes. The misunderstanding is probably completely on-me, and due to my poor communication ability. But, maybe we are all so habituated to the expectation that everyone always shares their personal position that when one doesnât, you see one in their post anyway. Maybe we have all become so tuned to a defensive posture, that we are scanning a contribution looking for points of disagreement. For-the-record, I was not stating my position on OSAS. I appreciate that you have shared yours. I understand what you are saying.
Previously, I was suggesting that any personâs confidence in the permanence of their own salvation may be rooted in how they perceive their own salvation process to have been inaugurated. I was suggesting that a person feels secure in their own salvation to the degree they feel they had no part in it. I think there is an innate acceptance in everymanâs heart that God makes no mistakes, and so God reverses none of His actions. In contrast to that, every man knows he personally makes many mistakes throughout his life, and often reverses himself for one reason or many. It is reasonable to accept that every word of God is perfect, and does not fail nor is it reversed, while every word of man is an admixture of human motivations, and therefore tentative at best. It is an unreasonable tenet to accept is that God could issue an edict and man reverse it. What seems almost equally untenable is that Man could make a decision, without the aid of God, and God would be duty-bound to uphold it best he can, but would be unable to keep it if man reversed himself. The simplest way to look at it is to accept if God did 100% of the action, it is unshakable; if Man had any part in the action it is partially built on shifting sand.
Did God orchestrate my entire salvation apart from my input, or did God make me an offer that was contingent on my acceptance? My personal position on the subject is that no human man is obstructed from his final home by holding either position. God does not accept His children based on how important they feel they are, or how much impact they sense they had in their own birth-from-above any more than we would reject our own children on the same basis. If my son one day said to me âDad, you are no longer my father and I will live that way for the rest of my life, come what may!â he would become no less my son in my eyes. If the neighbor kid came to me and said the same thing, he would be no more or less my biological offspring.
My two cents. I hope Iâm understood.
KP
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@PeterC, parables have one overall point. The details are less important. God is not like the father in the parable, since he can save anyone anytime. He is able. Thatâs why we need to keep praying for our children and others we know and witnessing to them about what he is doing in our lives and what we believe about him so that God can do his work in their lives.
Yes, I understand. I did not intend to draw a comparison between myself and God. However, if the assertion that God possesses the ability to save anyone at any time is employed and then applied to the narrative of the Wayward Son, would this not lend support to the contention that free will is not present?
John 3:16-18
âFor God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.â
I am âwhoever.â I am saved through Him. He did not force it on me. But if I walk away, denounce Jesus and God and anything to do with Him, wouldnât that meanâŠ
âWhoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.â
Did I not return to being whoever? Do you believe that, upon completing John 3:16, I cannot walk away? I am saved even if I do not want to be? Perhaps you believe that God will keep our Salvation even if we choose to reject Him, for He knows how ignorant and sinful we are?
Peter
If God has given you his gift of the new birth, @PeterC, he will not take it away, and he will enable you to return to the center of his will, if you have strayed from it.
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I so totally hope you are correct.
God blees
Peter
This whole topic has had me thinkng about Judas. I found this (pretty weighty) article on it. I would say arguements for OSAS are not looking good after reading this.
I"m not sure what you mean. The article supports OSAS. The article says:
âIf someone asks, âDid Judas lose his salvation?â the answer is No. He didnât lose his salvation because he never had it. Whatever else you can say about him, he was never a follower of Jesus Christ in the same sense as the other apostles. He was not saved and then lost. He was lost because he was never saved in the first place.â
What Happened to Judas? (And Is There a Chance He Ended Up in Heaven?) | Christianity.com
What part of the article made you say this?
KP
The last part of the article that says this:
âthe thought occurs to me that if I am a Christian at all, it is not because I am a pastor, an elder, a church member, a husband, a father, or a doer of good deeds. None of those things matter in the least when it comes to eternal salvation. If I am a Christian at all, it is because I am trusting in Jesus Christ and him alone for the forgiveness of my sins.â
So unless Iâm reading that wrong, or reading into that in some way, itâs saying trust is the key to salvation. One can have obtained salvation and later lost his trust, and therefore his salvation? (Ie., Apostacy.)
@PeterC, are you questioning whether a person can forfeit their salvation? And how do you distinguish that from those who profess to be believers, yet are not truly from God or from Jesus?
The Bible speaks very clearly about the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and it is a profound assurance for believers. When you are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to live within you. This is described as a sealing.
Ephesians 1:13-14 tells us, âIn him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is a guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession, even to the redemption of those who are Godâs own people, to the praise of his glory.â
This sealing signifies ownership and security. Itâs Godâs mark on you, assuring you that you belong to Him.
This sealing is not something we earn or maintain through our own efforts. It is a work of God, a promise of His faithfulness. The Holy Spirit is described as a âguarantee of our inheritance.â This means He is the down payment, the pledge that God will complete the work of salvation in us.
Therefore, the understanding that a believer cannot lose their salvation once sealed by the Holy Spirit aligns with these biblical truths.
The security of our salvation rests not on our performance, but on Godâs unchanging character and His finished work on the cross.
As Jesus Himself said in John 10:28-29, âI give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will be able to snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fatherâs hand.â
This is a wonderful assurance of Godâs protective power over His children.
We can âdive deeperâ just say the word.
J.
@d-o.o-b, this article says nothing for or against OSAS, since it contends that Judas was not saved from the beginning and that, thus, he didnât lose his salvation, since he never had it in the first place.
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Correct @Bruce_Leiter
When we look at Judas, the disciple who betrayed Jesus, the scriptures paint a picture of someone who was chosen and walked with Jesus, yet ultimately made a fateful decision.
Jesus himself chose the twelve, and Judas was among them. He was with Jesus, heard his teachings, and witnessed his miracles firsthand.
However, scripture also speaks about the consequences of betrayal and the importance of enduring in faith. Jesus himself said in Matthew 26:24, âThe Son of Man goes on as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.â
This verse highlights the gravity of Judasâs actions. Furthermore, Acts 1:25 tells us that Judas âwent away to his own rightful place,â which, in the context of betraying the Son of God, is understood by many to indicate a separation from God.
Regarding Old Testament scriptures and salvation, the concept of salvation in the Old Testament was understood through the lens of Godâs covenant with Israel. Those who were faithful to God within that covenant, trusting in His promises and following His law, were considered part of His redeemed people. We see examples of this in individuals like Abraham, Moses, David, and many others who are commended for their faith and obedience.
The Old Testament law, while not able to grant salvation in itself, pointed towards the need for a Savior and the forgiveness of sins. Through animal sacrifices, there was a temporary atonement for sin, foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice that would come. The prophets also spoke of a coming Messiah who would bring redemption and forgiveness.
Ultimately, salvation, as fully revealed in the New Testament through Jesus Christ, is a gift of Godâs grace received by faith. Itâs about a personal relationship with Jesus, accepting His atoning sacrifice for our sins, and following Him. The Old Testament believers looked forward to this, while New Testament believers look back to His finished work on the cross.
J.
In a narrow view, I would agree with you. It in fact does not say âonce saved always savedâ.
But, as KPuff pointed out, it does say the followingâŠ
It assumes in the first two lines that the reader is wondering about the question of OSAS. Why else would someone ask, âDid Judas lose his salvation?â
It may not speak on it, but it speaks to it.
Here is the reason I am completely hoping OSAS is true; however, from my reading, Iâm not so sure.
I just canât imagine her doing all this and NOT being saved. But now she has walked away.
Of course, I believe this 100 percent. Yes, even if we struggle with sin or fall away, I believe we are sealed. For He will never leave nor forsake us. However? Can we choose to walk away?
Yes. However, even in this life, my parent, or long lost uncle, dies, and I find out that there is a large inheritance waiting for us, we can choose to accept or reject. We can accept, then, for whatever reason, give it all away.
Thank you. Where do you feel free will comes in? To accept or reject. To keep or give away. ETC. What do you make of passages like this?
âWhen a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done, he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.â Ezekiel 18:26-28
Thanks for adding.
Peter
Give this a listen brother and come back to me.
Question 24: Can you lose your salvation?
And the opposing views, Corey, for OSAS, Brown, against.
Dr. Michael Brown âȘ@LFTV⏠Vs Corey Minor âȘ@smartchristians⏠:Once Saved Always Saved? EP 271
After prolonged and careful study of the Scriptures, I have arrived at a settled conviction that a true believer cannot forfeit his or her salvation.
J.
36 Bible texts that refute âeternal securityâ
Bible Text
Description Of Blood Bought Believer
Description Of Sin
Description After
.
Indicate Those Descriptions You Feel Do Not Refer To Christians But The Lost
.
Indicate Those You Feel Do Not Refer To The Lost, But To Christians
Ezek 3:20; 18:24-26
righteous
turns away, commits iniquity
die in sin
Mt 25:1-13
took lamps and went to meet Christ
5 were foolish
âI do not know youâ
Mt 25:14-30
Christâs own slaves
hid talent
wicked lazy, cast into outer darkness, weep & gnash
Lk 8:13
receive word with joy, believe
temptation, persecution
fall away
Lk 9:62
put hands to plow of kingdom
looked back to former life
not fit for kingdom
Lk 12:42-48
steward in charge of Christâs servants
beat slaves, drunkenness
cut in pieces, assign with unbelievers
Jn 15:1-6
branches
does not abide
thrown away, dried up, burnt
Acts 4:32;5:1-11
of those who believed
lied to Holy Spirit
God struck dead
Acts 8:9-24
Simon the sorcerer believed, baptized, received HS
offered money
heart not right, wickedness, gall of bitterness, bond of iniquity
Acts 20:17,28-30
elders, shepherds of church
false doctrine
drawn away
Rom 11:13-23
wild olive, grafted in v17, stand by faith V20
unbelief, not continue V20,22
not spared, cut off V21-22
1 Cor 9:26-27
Apostle Paul, preached to others
body not slave
Paul disqualified
1 Cor 10:1-12
standing (feel they are saved) V12
immorality, crave evil, grumble,
fall V12
Gal 2:11-14
Apostle Peter
false doctrine, hypocrisy
Literal Greek âstood condemnedâ V11
Gal 5:4
severed & fallen indicates previously joined and standing
seeking to keep OT
severed from Christ, fallen from grace
Gal 6:1
restore indicates once saved
caught in trespass
needed to be restored
1 Ti 1:18-20
Hymenaeus, Alexander: shipwreck indicates they once sailed good.
rejected faith and good conscience, blasphemed
their personal faith shipwrecked, delivered to Satan
1 Ti 4:1
fall away indicates once saved
false doctrine
fall away from faith
1 Ti 5:8
passage addressed to Christians
doesnât provide for family
denied faith, worse than unbeliever
1 Ti 6:10
passage addressed to Christians
love of money
wandered from faith, pierced selves with pangs
2 Ti 2:16-18
Hymenaeus and Philetus: gone astray indicates once correct
False doctrine: resurrection past
gone astray, upset otherâs faith as well
Heb 3:12
brethren
evil, unbelieving
fall away from God
Heb 4:1-2,11
brethren, addressed to Christians
unbelief, disobey
short of Godâs rest, fall
Heb 6:4-8
once enlightened, tasted heavenly gift, partakers of HS, Bible & powers to come, renew indicates restore to former cleanness
sin
fallen away, canât renew, crucified Christ again and put in open shame
Heb 10:26-31
received knowledge of truth. no longer remains indicates they once had forgiveness
sinning willfully
no forgiveness of sin, fearful judgment
Heb 10:38-39
Godâs righteous, Christians
shrinks back
God has no pleasure in him, destruction
Jas 5:19-20
brethren, Christians
strays from truth, sin
soul will die in sins, sinner
1 Pe 5:8
Christians
sin
devoured by devil
2 Pe 2:1
Christians, âamong youâ had been bought by Christ
false prophets
swift destruction
2 Pe 2:20-22
escaped defilements of world by Christ, entangled again, returns to mire indicates they were once untangled and clean, known way of righteousness, had washed
entangled, overcome, turned away, returns to vomit/mire
last state worse than first, better they never had became Christians
2 Pe 3:17
beloved, Christians
carried away,
fall from own steadfastness
2 Jn 8-9
Christians, have accomplished
not abide in doctrine, false doctrine
lose, no reward doesnât have God
Rev 2:4-5
Christians in Ephesus
left first love
fallen, lampstand removed
Rev 3:5
Christians in Sardis
deeds incomplete
are dead
Rev 3:16-17
Christians in Laodicea
lukewarmness
spit out of Christâs mouth
Indicate Those Descriptions You Feel Do Not Refer To Christians But The Lost.
Indicate Those You Feel Do Not Refer To The Lost, But To Christians.
Paradoxical Peter.
J.