Original sin, biblical, or not?

Theology
21

I think I see your objection, that our decision calculation is not purely from the brain, like doing math?

Roman 10:8-11 lays it out pretty plainly,

“But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

So the “heart” is more than just a math/brain calculation. It’s the totality of knowledge, experience, motivations, and conscience, being ultimately directed by conscious intentional will.

Paul says earlier in the chapter that he testifies that Israel had a zeal for God, but didn’t combine that with “knowledge”. You can probably teach us that that word “knowledge” means more than book learning of information. More thorough and intimate.

Then we have to add in the witness of the Spirit bringing conviction to our hearts when the gospel truth is being shared. That strong confirmation that we are hearing the truth. In that moment we become conscious of our broken, sinful self. That we are indeed undone by our own folly, and in desperate need of salvation.

God’s command is then to repent, believe, allow Him to rescue. Or reject His salvation.

If we respond from the heart (our whole inner being) and choose to believe the truth hat He offers, we are vouched safe, and adopted as sons and daughters.

Does that seem like a more accurate description? With our intentional will, we decide, it’s best for me to become a believer. God already did all the work to make that a possibility, my only part is to believe it from the heart.

And then my responsibility is to walk the walk of truth, as revealed by His Spirit and His Word. Again, a decision of the intentional will from the heart - daily!

22

Nope, can’t teach You/Plural guys anything, I’ve learned my lesson brother.

[quote=“Pater15, post:21, topic:13650”]
Does that seem like a more accurate description? With our intentional will, we decide, it’s best for me to become a believer. God already did all the work to make that a possibility, my only part is to believe it from the heart.

God is the one who works in the believer, wouldn’t you agree? And maybe you can eloborate on what you see as “intentional will?” Online discussions can be probematic.

So I agree that God is the One working in the believer, surely? Paul says plainly, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

But this is where I’m still scratching my head over your phrase “intentional will.”

What exactly do you mean by that?

If you simply mean that a person genuinely hears the Gospel, understands what he is hearing, and willingly repents and believes, then I don’t think we have much of an argument. Of course the person believes. Of course he responds. Nobody is suggesting that God believes for us or repents for us.

But if by “intentional will” you mean that the sinner ultimately supplies the decisive thing, namely, “God has done His part, now I decide whether I will believe,” then I’m not seeing that in Paul.

Paul says, “For unto you it is given… not only to believe on him…” (Phil. 1:29).

He says, “Who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7).

And, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8).Simple and very explicit, no need to complicate things here.

Then you have Philippians 2:13 staring us right in the face: God works in us “both to will and to do.”

So I’m not denying the human response at all. I’m questioning what we mean when we make the will the decisive explanation for that response.

And this is exactly where online discussions can go sideways. We can use the same words, “choice,” “will,” “belief,” “heart,” “free will,” and “decision,” and actually mean quite different things by them. Then we spend 50 posts arguing when half the time we’re arguing over definitions.

So help me out here. When you say, “with our intentional will, we decide, it’s best for me to become a believer,” are you saying simply that faith is a real, conscious and willing response to the Gospel?

Or are you saying that the ultimate distinction between the one who believes and the one who rejects Christ is found in the person’s own will, because one person chooses to believe and the other chooses not to?

Because that is where I think we need to slow down and let Paul speak.

I’m not trying to smuggle Calvinism into the discussion, either. I’m asking what Paul actually attributes to God and what he attributes to man. If God is the One who works in us “both to will and to do,” then I want to understand exactly what work you believe remains exclusively ours.

Shalom.

J.

23

Also staring at you (right in the face) the preceding verse - Phi 2:12 “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”

As often happens, our responsibility is to faithfully “rightly divide” the scriptures.

It seems obvious to me that we have our responsibility to intentionally obey God’s will and commandments. Our intentionality is what separates us from the animals.

Even if Paul were to say “just let God do His work through you”, he is pointing out a frame of mind that we are commanded to intentionally adopt.

But that’s not what he said. He said to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” This is a call to obedience. Congruence of our intentions to the Spirit of God living within us, Aligning our will to His will.

You seem to be saying that any perception on our part that we have any influence over what we choose to believe is just an illusion. It’s actually God exerting His will over our beliefs.

That would imply then that the whole Bible is a meaningless charade. None of it matters, all has been already decided and set in stone.

Is that what you believe?

24

When I try to respond to you, I keep getting some “Error 40-something” message, and now the character limit seems to have been reduced as well. Not sure what’s going on.

J.

1 Like
25

I imagine it will work out and correct itself eventually.