The PoE - What About the Person?

Theology
21

Thanks so much for your quite reasonable answer, and for correcting my fat-finger on the chapter number.

And I agree wholeheartedly that God’s thoughts are higher, nothing that we can hope to come near to, and not something I would ever seek to aspire to.

I will take a minor exception to your comment on logic, and I really think it’s simply a case of us talking past each other. “Logic” is an extremely technical exercise for those who make it their life’s work. It has its own complete symbolic language. I’m a simpleton in comparison. I stick with simple deductive syllogisms that yield necessary truths.

For example:

  1. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
  2. Jesus never lied.
    Conclusion: Jesus is the Son of God.

It is always true in deductive logic that if the numbered premises are true, and the conclusion is a valid product of the premises, then the conclusion is necessarily true. A faulty argument might be because of false premises, or an invalid conclusion. And that’s what people argue over.

This process is something we all do informally all of time. I would call to mind our admonition to “rightly divide the word of truth”. @Johann is one of the best at this, calling into service multiple scripture references, using the original languages, to study an issue from all angles. “This is true and that is true, and the other is true, so a given valid conclusion MUST be true. We don’t always agree with each other, but that happens with brothers.

So if I say, “God cannot create a free moral agent person who cannot sin”, I am indeed offering a logical conclusion based on the law of identity. Similar statements might be “there is no such thing as a married bachelor”, or “a theoretically true circle has no corners”. These logical truths are not necessarily explained in detail in the Bible, but they are perfectly true nevertheless.

I think that Problem of Evil theodicies have nearly uniformly ignored an analysis of the fundamentals of personhood, along with a couple other key factors. And rarely does anyone expend much ink on attempting to formalize an explanation of God’s ultimate purposes for creating everything, although I think that that can be wonderfully accomplished simply by using the Bible as we have it.

So, nitty gritty time. People come to their own conclusions about why Eve ate the forbidden fruit. They always include some magnitude of deception as a contributing factor, and that’s obviously true. In like manner, ignorance is involved, and cited as a cause for her easily being deceived.

I try to take it a step further, and offer explanations as to what was the good thing in her make-up, that caused her to do a bad thing. And I say, suppose God made all people with the foundational, unchangeable characteristic, that humans always do what they believe is in their best interest at the moment, every time. Would that be a good thing? Yes, in the case that they always deeply believe God in every circumstance, that would be the very thing about them. And therein lies the choice factor. We always believe what we choose to believe.

Now, our struggle isn’t about what we do, but rather the struggle is about what we choose to believe. The reason Eve sinned was because she didn’t believe God.

I’ve gone on long enough ha ha. Thanks again brother.

Your brother

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So sorry @KPuff!! Dude first thing I did when I read this was call my wife over to laugh at the UEM quote! I quote from that movie and “Napoleon Dynamite” all the time! (Also “While You Were Sleeping”). Joe Jr is the MAN!.

After I called her over, I got distracted by some shiny object, which took some time to extricate myself from. Then, my daughter jumped out and said BOO! Of course I fell over in a faint like any normal possum, and next thing I knew, I was in Baltimore!

Actually, I have no excuse. I will give your post a just treatment and look forward to further discussion.

Thank you my friend!

Your brother

23

Ha ha. No worries. Your elaborate “excuse” is picturesque as it is compelling.
I will wait with bated breath (I think that means I have to eat earthworms until then).

KP

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I’ve been sort of delaying speaking to your post, knowing that I’ll need full attention, and command of faculties, if I’m to do it justice. I appreciate you friend, and your keen insights.

Ain’t it the truth. I remember once, while still a youth, that I had a sudden epiphanous revelation about how to be a good Christian. JUST STOP SINNING! So simple! And I, with full confidence, said to myself, “I can do that!”, because I reasoned that we take one breath at a time, take one step at a time, and, commit one sin at a time. So then if I’m ever tempted, just don’t do it! Just say no, as you say. And I walked out of my room, overjoyed that I had figured out the secret to the Christian life. And of course it didn’t last the full day before I was berating myself over some failure.

Yeah for sure. And I can testify that this very factor has turned me from sin many times (not always) as I imagine the shame and disappointment of exposure. So what is our responsibility as Christians? I don’t want to derail, but let’s be sure, - it’s definitely our responsibility to contemplate the wide swath of devastation that our sin can cause. However, it’s not our responsibility to run around exposing every sin we see in others. In fact:

Proverbs 17:9 - “One who conceals an offense seeks love, But one who repeats a matter separates close friends.”

I was at a convention, and found a credit card laying on the ground. The person’s name and the business name was on the front of the card, so I looked up their booth number. I walked over there knowing that the person would be freaking out when she realized she’d lost a company credit card. But I was reluctant to hand it back to her (we all had name tags) in front of the actual owners of the business. Coulda got her fired on the spot. Trouble was, since she was quite a winsome young lass, (around 55 by my guess) and I’m still astonishingly good looking (as we’ve covered), I didn’t want to start the tongues wagging by inviting her to take a walk with me.

Actually, I didn’t want everyone to think I am creepy stalker. So I just handed it to her, she screamed, the boss-man scowled at first, but then made a joke, so I think she weathered her carelessness.

We aren’t the morality police. God hates gossip. We are not to protect a criminal, or someone causing danger, or actively exploiting an innocent person. But neither are we to destroy each other by repeating our failures.

Amen brother - this is the other side. It takes much wisdom and discernment to make Godly applications. I like all the CswithCs ha ha.

KPuff quote - “I’m not sure how you see Paul’s “confession” in light of this principle:

“although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief (1 Tim. 1:13)”

I think this deserves a separate thread. “Ignorant unbelief” gets several mentions in scripture, and it’s kind of a big deal.

Well, my opinion is that it was a bit worse than that. They didn’t have any previous experience with any difficulties, and no one to look to who did have any experience with any difficulties. I asked the question earlier if anybody thinks A&E ever argued? I guess it’s hard to imagine, since their life was idyllic in every way. And they were overwhelmingly ignorant, at least when it comes to evil.

And I agree, God maybe might have seemed quite separate from them. A reality of the world that they never questioned.

Yes, 100% agreement. We have every advantage over A&E.

This is a point of repeated attack from unbelievers, claiming God’s obvious unfairness toward them. He takes a couple innocent babes, puts them into an untenable context with a commandment that they are sure to break, throw in a lying enemy, and then He condemns them for failing.

This needs another thread to discuss fully. But as an introduction, I think this is a beginning for our understanding:

“For God so loved the world (before it even existed), that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

His love is the driver for everything.

How humbling that is. How much should we feel incredibly honored to have been considered so valuable to God. Just beyond our ability to fully grasp.

Thank you for your kind words, and the many times you’ve offered new insights into this thrilling search for answers!

Your friend and brother

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@Pater15

Yes, thank-you brother, for your notes. I appreciate your care-filled reply.

I also appreciate your intrepid inquiry into these difficult ideas; digging in where others may fear to tread. Sometimes new ideas, like the one you are presenting, feel a bit like spelunking. For most folks, from the safety of the surface, noticing a gaping opening in the earth just looks like a foreboding deep hole, a dangerous pit of such ominous portend that no one in their right mind would dare to explore. But some do dare, some adventurers need to descend; 10 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet, down to where the air gets moist and heavy, and the comforting light from the opening at the top begins to fade away over your head. Or deeper still, down, down, where surface light fails to reach, our reliance on sight becomes useless, sounds bounce around the dark echo chamber disguising their source, and smells are strange, foreign, and one worries that they may be toxic. Still there must be answers here, treasure lurking in the hidden recesses of this unexplored field. What we find is unfamiliar and unconventional, but we know it is real, worthy, foundational, and revealing information that we heretofore didn’t have. We know it is a gift, a grace from the mysterious maker of the cave; we know we are here at His urging, we know it is an expression of His love.

Thanks friend for your insistence that I be your spelunking partner. I am the richer for it.

KP.

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@Pater15

Just something I need to say (I don’t know why).

Thank you. Good point.
As a point of extended clarity, let me try to untie a long standing error I often hear from Christians regarding “confession”

You, @Pater15, said:

“It definitely IS our responsibility to contemplate the wide swath of devastation that our sin can cause.
However, it’s NOT our responsibility to run around exposing every sin we see in others.”

I agree.
Also, it definitely IS our responsibility to confess our sins to God (this is a given), and also our responsibility to directly confess to those who have been hurt by them. But, it definitely is NOT our responsibility to broadcast our sins to those who are uninvolved. Think of the damage caused by recent public revelations of well-known professing Christians who have been caught in some sin. I, for one, do not think there was any benefit to me knowing about these sins (I don’t believe much of what I hear anyway).

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Note: Here confess is: Gk: homologéō = homo (together with) (logeo) (to say),= assent, capitulate, agree with God regarding His charges against you

Therefore, confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. (James 5:16)

Note: Here confess is: exomologéō, ex (out)+ homologéō, (see above) = speak your agreement out loud,)

…and, here “your trespasses to one another” is: cop to the crime you committed against your neighbor to your neighbor)

This passage out of James is often cited to convince sinning Christians that God insists we openly expose our sins in order to be healed from (be absolved of) them. However, what is absolutely NOT contained in this verse is any idea that I should openly expose my personal wrongdoings to anyone who is not involved, or affected by my crime; not to a priest, not to a so-called “accountability partner”, not to my spouse, not to the congregation, not to Facebook or Twitter, not to the world. The sub-text “to one another” (allélōn) infers intimacy, and not broadcast. If I lied about you, or lied to you, James is saying I should come to you and acknowledge my wrong doing. I’m not saying exposing personal crime openly may not be helpful or have other benefits, I’m sure in some circumstances it does. I’m just saying James’ is not saying that here. His admonition from God is to go and confess to the one you wronged, and should not be used to coerce someone into exposing their sin to a priest hoping to obtain absolution by that erroneous route, or confessing to the uninvolved, only causing more damage to the cause of Christ by bringing open shame upon the name of Jesus. That aspect of confession is not contained in this passage (IMHO).

Just thinking. I hope I’m not too far off topic.

KP

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27

No, I think you are spot on @KPuff . The conclusion of the whole of scripture is that God loves a repentant heart, and loving fellowship with those whose firm intent is to glorify Him.

We can trust Him to be steadfastly committed to our best. We can’t expect that from the great majority of people. If God knows that the exposure of our sins is for our own good (and sometimes it is) then He is well able to bring that exposure to pass.

If we find ourselves in the position of having to lie to prevent our exposure, it should be obvious that we can’t righteously do that. However, there are times when loving discretion entails that we just keep our fat mouths closed. Misery loves company. It’s no fun to take all the heat when there are multiple people involved in a situation. We are each responsible for our own participation in iniquity. Smearing others only expands the scope of our sin.

It’s between ourselves and God.

I know a man who “went along” with an impure relationship, up to a point, and then ended it. When the other person became fearful of exposure, my friend was accused of the worst. Ninety five per cent lies. He looked straight ahead, kept his mouth shut, didn’t defend anything, and endured catastrophic loss of reputation. That is, until years later, when he was vindicated without ever saying a word.

He told me in confidence that he had behaved stupidly, and he did have his own sin to repent of, and it was none of his business ensuring how anyone else got blamed. It sounded very messy for sure, but his silence ended up speaking volumes more than if he had gotten into the blame game.

Our goal should always be unity in the Spirit, stern correction where necessary, full repentance and a clear conscience for all.

Your brother

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