A question I’ve been sitting with: If humanity had never sinned, would Jesus still have come? Some theologians say the Incarnation wasn’t just a “Plan B,” but part of God’s original intent… to dwell with us. Curious what others think. Was Christmas always in the cards?
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Show me where is “Christmas” to be found in Scripture @ellenvera and the Incarnation was never plan B.
J.
I do not believe it is in Scripture, after all, the Bible was written because we fell. Before that, God was with us.
“And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?” Genesis 3:8-9
Jesus came because we fell. He saved us from what was never intended for us. Hell is a very real place. However, let’s look into what Jesus actually says.
“And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
Wait. Stop. What does Jesus say was prepared for us from the “foundation of the World?“ Heaven.
Then read this
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
He said He prepared the kingdom for the saved and eternal fire for the sinners. Wait? No. Actually, He said this.
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
The eternal fire, AKA hell, was created for whom? “The devil and his angels.” God is not some old man, sitting on a throne, waiting to see how many He can cast into hell. He is not sitting there waiting for you to slip up so He can punish you. He never intended you to go to hell at all. He created hell for one purpose. “The Devil and his Angels.”
With this in mind, I would say “No.” Jesus would not have come if we had not fallen. There would be no reason to.
Peter
It was planned before the foundation of the world that Jesus would come. It is rather obvious that created beings given free will will rebel. A person building a robot either programs it to do what is instructed or allows it to choose. Most recognize the free will robot gives us Skynet (Terminator reference).
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Great question @ellenvera !
I’m interested to see where @Johann is going with it. But Rev 13:8 says that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. That is, Jesus’ death at Calvary to save whosoever would believe. God’s intent to demonstrate His maximal greatness to the objects of His love has always been “in the cards”.
And “He’ll be back!”
The idea that the Incarnation had always been the plan is a very old notion, and there are biblical texts which indicate that at least this is a highly plausible maybe. The Christological statements we read in some places, such as in Colossians and Ephesians locates creation as not only with Christ as cause, “All things were made by Him” but also teleological “and for Him”. In Ephesians we see that it was God’s desire to sum up all things in heaven and on earth in Christ.
Among some theologians there is the argument that when we read about God walking in the cool of the Garden this should be understood as explicitly Christological. This is Christ.
Then there are theological discussions about the Logos Asarkos vs Logos Ensarkos and whether it truly makes sense to speak of the Logos Asarkos. Is the Incarnation an alien property to the Eternity of the Logos, or is the Incarnation essential to Him: And that is somewhat getting us back to the question of this discussion. If the Incarnation is consequential, a response to the Fall, then the Incarnation is perhaps non-essential to the Person of the Logos; but if on the other hand the Incarnation isn’t consequential but essential, then the humanity and flesh which the Logos bears becomes deeply tied to His Eternal Person. Not that He was human “before” He became human; but that becoming human has always been–in the Eternity of God–intrinsic to Himself in some way. I’ll freely admit that I am not well versed on this particular subject and so am not properly equipped to give the discussion justice.
That said: I am inclined toward the position that the Incarnation was never “Plan B”, but is embedded in God’s eternal purpose of creation. That the creation of all things being for the Son involves the Son’s assuming of human flesh and this was always God’s desire in uniting or summing up all things in Christ. In this way the Fall is not something which altered God’s plans, but Fall or no Fall, God’s purposes shall be accomplished.
And God’s purpose for everything is in the Person of the Son, in the Eternal and Divine Logos.
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I’m not going anywhere with it since in short, maximal love is not the language of religion, liturgy, or Scripture, but of modern philosophical abstraction, and when it is pressed into theological argument, it should be recognized as a conceptual tool imposed on the text rather than a doctrine derived from it.
I concur with @TheologyNerd and his post.
J.
Was this what happened to the other regulars who arent here anymore?
@Pater15
I recognize your style from another forum, and I will be clear, speaking that way to me in person would not come so easily, so let us keep this discussion grounded and respectful.
I am struggling to see your purpose here, because rather than engaging the text of Scripture itself, you appear to be pontificating and philosophizing, questioning the authority of Scripture instead of submitting your claims to it.
J.
Johann, what bothers you is that Im questioning you. So you tell lies and misrepresent me.
Last night your ability to stick to a subject and say things that make sense seemed to degenerate quite rapidly, as if you were drinking, which was my genuine assumption. Couple that with your keyboard threats and it’s clear that you need to grow up a little.
You’ll get respect when you earn it. You’ll also lose respect when earn that.
Take care of yourself brother. Hopefully you won’t run everybody off.
I can’t imagine a perfect being, one in whom is no variation or shadow of turning.
(James 1:17) ever having or needing anything like a “Plan B”. Holy God can only have a Plan A (IMHO)
KP
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