Have you ever considered the actual context of Paul’s advise to Timothy or do you just prefer the parts that justify women being controled?
There we go. I’m a prophet.
I sincerely doubt you are being led by the Spirit of God. Everyone knows that you are grinding your personal axe (by insulting people), and you now have zero credibility, and your influence has gone in a direction that you maybe didn’t intend.
Whatever valid argument you may have thought you had just went out the window. You’ve moved at least some of us toward a goal of ensuring peace in our churches. You’re apparently not an advocate of peace.
Perhaps you should re-read what I said?
Be blessed, be a blessing.
Peter
Brother, I really appreciate the depth, grace, and humility you brought to this response. It’s rare to have a discussion on this topic where both sides genuinely listen, and your breakdown of the text made this a real joy to read.
You nailed a critical distinction with authenteō. If Paul specifically chose authenteō in 1 Timothy 2:12 instead of standard words for normal, delegated oversight (exousia or proistēmi), he is targeting a very specific behavior: self-appointed, coercive, “my way or the highway” dominance . Where I think your excellent point leads us is right to the heart of the matter: No Christian is permitted authenteō. If authenteō is self-derived, domineering control, then men aren’t allowed to exercise it either. Peter explicitly warns male elders against “lording it over” the flock (1 Peter 5:3).
Delegated service vs. self-assertion. When a godly woman serves, teaches, or leads within her God-given gifts, just like Deborah, Huldah, Phoebe, or Junia, she isn’t operating in authenteō or trying to “rule over men” (the Genesis 3 curse). She is simply walking in delegated, Spirit-led service (exousia) for the edification of the Body.
I love where we landed: self-originated, dictatorial rule has zero place in the Kingdom of God. Whether male or female, true leadership is always servant-hearted and submitted to Jesus, our only supreme authority.
I think where we DO agree is Church Leadership. Christ is the supreme authority and head of the Church (Ephesians 1:22–23, Colossians 1:18). Human leadership—The office of Elder/Pastor/Overseer is restricted to qualified men based on passages like 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Timothy 3:1–7. Women? Women are called to vital ministries (teaching women/children, diaconal service, hospitality, assisting ministry), while primary authority rests with male elders.
Women were the first to witness and proclaim the resurrection of Jesus, a pivotal event in Christian faith. All four Gospels highlight the presence of women at the empty tomb. Of course, they can be prophetesses, teachers, and even in roles like Decons, just not Lead Pastors. Phoebe served as deacon of the church at Cenchreae and was entrusted with carrying Paul’s letter to the Romans, likely the most theologically significant document in the New Testament.
“I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me” Romans 16:1-2.
The Greek term prostatis (translated as “benefactor”) can also mean “patron” or “leader,” suggesting Phoebe held significant authority and responsibility in the church. Women are restricted from Pastor Roles within the church, but not barred from ministries.
Peter
1 Like
Thanx Pastor @PeterC
This has been an enjoyable discussion, and one from which I hope we both continue to benefit. Thank-you.
It does not seem to have moved the needle towards more accurate understanding on kv100’s POV. Based on the reactive false accusation asserted toward me (and you), I think kv100’s entrenched POV may derive from negative personal experiences, and possibly much deeply rooted pain. I may be wrong, but even so, for that kind of pain in others, I grieve. Against that kind of deeply-rooted pain a forum such as this has little to offer. It may be that this kind of pain “can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting."
Turning-the-page:
I will confess, as I was reminded in my quiet this morning, I strongly suspect that I hold points-of-view in some subjects on which I feel strongly certain, but someday God will show me my error, and straighten my understanding. I expect it; I look for it. I find this new ability to hold my opinions and personal conclusions with a loose (loosening) grip is not natural, but an artifact of sanctification; I didn’t want to expect to be proven wrong, but God has all but assured me of it. It feels as if He is slowly shrouding me in Holy childlikeness. It’s uncomfortable, but it is what He said He will do with each of us.
That said, I would sometime like to have a civil brotherly discussion on Biblical authority; what The Bible actually says about it, how it mimics, and how it differs from worldly authority (and you know my definition of authority). Not in this thread however. One area of interest is the development of “offices” in the Christian Church. What does God expect “officials” to do, and what does holding an office really mean to our Savior. Oh well, another time.
As a wise man often says,
Be blessed, and be a blessing,
KP
2 Likes
One of the difficulties in parsing St. Paul’s admonition “I do not permit a woman to teach…” is that we actually have Paul, himself, expecting women to be quite active in ecclesiastical affairs. In 1 Corinthians 11, the Apostle speaks of women prophesying/preaching. In Romans, St. Paul gives high praise to various women of faith, including St. Junia the Apostle. And throughout the Bible, Old and New Testaments, there are plenty of examples of women who are doing things for the Lord and working amidst God’s people in positions of prominence.
And the history of the Church and Christian Tradition also speaks of many women of faith who served the Lord and His Church by teaching, preaching, and being courageous in their faith.
The issue, I think, really comes down to the difficulty in exegeting St. Paul’s statements to St. Timothy, where the Apostle says “I do not permit a woman to teach and to have authority over a man”. This word translated as “have authority” occurs only here in the New Testament, and is a bit difficult. The word is authentein, and as said, occurs only here in the entire New Testament, outside of the New Testament the word carries the idea of a hostile take-over, the word is a violent one. St. Paul clearly didn’t have problems with women, in general, teaching men, otherwise he would have taken issue with women like St. Lydia. So the issue is not a general prohibition against women teaching, or taking up an important position among Christians.
The issue is ultimately how we understand authentein. As St. Paul uses it here.
As for myself, I have been satisfied with understanding Paul’s meaning as referring to a, perhaps, more local problem, rather than a universal problem, of women (specifically the wives of certain men) who have bullied their way. The whole context of Paul’s epistles to St. Timothy involves Timothy’s pastoral vocation; so the women in question have done something where they have forced themselves into positions where they think they are in charge, or perhaps are being forceful in some other way.
I actually would argue that, ultimately, the issue isn’t even a gendered one; so much as it is a one of appropriate ecclesiastical order. As St. Paul placed a great deal of importance of order within the Church (see his rebukes of the chaos and confusion happening in Corinth, both in general and, especially, when it comes to their gathered worship and the celebration of the Eucharist, where some are getting intoxicated at the Lord’s Supper).
As a related, though I’d argue an aside issue, is the modern question of whether women should be permitted to be ordained to the Holy Ministry, i.e., be pastors. I don’t think that’s what Paul is addressing in his statements to Timothy. But it is an important question because of how divisive it is within the modern Church.
I am not going to try to make a dogmatic pronouncement on that here. But I will say, historically, there has never been precedence for the ordaining of women. This has not meant that women cannot preach or teach, or that women cannot serve in hundreds of ways in the Church. It’s a much more specific question, one of ordination. And that question is made much more complicated because ordination is not a universally agreed upon idea among Christians.
There is a huge difference between the highly structured ordination of priests in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which is understood as a Sacrament of Holy Orders, in which the one being ordained is vested with an irrevocable, indelible sacerdotal quality by the grace of God; within which one is also within the literal ordering and succession of the Holy Apostles, straight from Christ Himself. And on the other end of the spectrum, those churches which view pastors largely as lay persons who can give the sermon on Sunday morning. Some churches have nearly no concept of ordination at all; while other churches regard ordination as a Divinely instituted Sacrament. And then there is the vast middle-ground between the two.
So questions on female ordination grow exponentially more complex whether we mean a woman can be a priest/bishop, or if a woman can preach a sermon in the public gathering of the Faithful I’d argue the latter is a highly defensible position: Women can, indeed, preach and teach. The former is much more difficult.
1 Like
In a strict reading of Scripture, a woman standing in the place of authority in the church (pastor) is a sin. Only men argue against what is clearly written in Scripture.
Blessings.
I think the three of us, me @KPuff, and @TheologyNerd, all You, KPuff, and TheologyNerd have arrived at a remarkably balanced consensus.
Self-assertive dominance (authenteō) is forbidden for everyone.
Women actively possessed and exercised spiritual gifts (teaching, prophesying, diaconal leadership) across the Old and New Testaments.
The debate over modern leadership isn’t about female competence or spirituality, but about how local churches structure the specific office of Elder/Pastor in light of 1 Timothy 3 and historic church tradition.
For some, like @BlueDragon, who said this:
has to consider if Paul intended a total, blanket ban on women teaching or exercising spiritual influence over men; it creates immediate contradictions with his own praise of:
Priscilla (who, alongside her husband Aquila, instructed the male preacher Apollos in Acts 18:26).
Phoebe (the deacon/patron who carried and likely interpreted Romans).
Junia (prominent among the apostles in Romans 16:7).
1 Corinthians 11:5 (where women actively pray and prophesy in the assembled church).
Now, as for a lead Pastor, yes, I think we all agree. However, God can and DOES use women all the time.
Be blessed, be a blessing, and Jesus is LORD!
Peter
@PeterC and @TheologyNerd et. al.
I appreciate how you both obviously care about receiving truth from God’s word through a careful disciplined study and a precise and accurate interpretation of the intent of the original author. I applaud you both for this attention to detail; it is surely a mark of a faithful disciple.
I think we all agree that no other author supplies guidance, wisdom, and Godly order to our new covenant responsibilities like The Apostle Paul. Yet even though we are all reading the same admonitions and teachings, we still come away from the scriptures with different applications. Contributor kv100 also sees Godly order in the gathering differently than any of us do, (I suspect).
On this subject, and when considering this particular passage, we **must** remember the context. Paul’s admonition to Timothy contextually comes within his insistence (exhortation) for testimonial prayer. He pleads that:
… supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in **authority** (hyperochē), that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
Now,
Peter may be correct that this may be what “the debate” is about, but it is not what Paul is teaching.
Paul is not instructing Timothy how to conduct, or bring order to a weekly gathering, or how to structure the hierarchy of an institutionalized church. Paul is instructing Timothy to teach the disciples of Jesus in Ephesus how they are to conduct themselves everywhere; testimonially! These are instructions to be remembered in their homes, in the marketplace, on the job site, among their friends, at civil or political gatherings, etc. Men are to pray everywhere, (v8), “in like manner” (hōsautōs) women are to conduct themselves appropriately “everywhere”. The motivation for Paul’s exhortation has already been given; Paul’s states his reason to be our great commission to testify to the truth, i.e., live-out The Gospel testimony in our daily lives:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4).
I don’t think it is appropriate to substitute the stated context of our passage for one that strictly applies to order and decorum in the local church. The instructions for women are lifestyle instructions, and are not instructions on where they rank in the sacerdotal, or institutional order of authority within the church, or how they are respected within the local gathering. The venue is “everywhere”; dress modestly and properly everywhere, learn submissively everywhere, do not posture yourself superiorly over a man either in authority or teaching everywhere. Why would this be inappropriate? If women are every-bit equal to men in ecclesiastical position, why could they not finally, in Christ, accept roles for which they are fully qualified such as roles of authority and teaching? Because of testimony; not because a woman is inferior or incapable, but because a woman in charge testifies falsely of the order of God’s Creation. Paul clarifies it for Timothy (and us) this way:
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.”
Paul carries this theology of order into the local gathering in his pastoral letter to The Corinthians. Here he pleads:
“Let all things be done for edification” 1 Corinthians 14:26
And:
“Let all things be done decently and in order”. (1 Corinthians 14:40)
Edification within the gathering seems to be Paul’s motivation for order, yet our perpetual testimony is not disregarded.
“For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” (1 Corinthians 11:10)
In the gathering Paul speaks of women’s roles and Christian expression similarly:
“Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
Behaving shamefully is not edifying, neither does it testify to the truth.
Paul’s instructions for gender differences within the local gathering is also spoken of in Chapter 11, and is very instructive to us for this topic. I won’t cover it here, however.
CONTINUED (sorry)
My point here is, that the very idea that women can, and should participate in every church function, and every political or civil function, just as a man would, being prohibited only as lead pastor of a local gathering is not actually found in this passage, and is not even found anywhere in our New Testament. Furthermore, it is not Paul’s subtle intention to teach those concepts here, or anywhere; they simply cannot faithfully be extrapolated from this, or any other New Testament scripture. Not as I read scripture. Even the idea of a local “pastor” or a “lead pastor” is not even a vague concept found in The New Testament. It is completely supplied by tradition. And so, Paul cannot possibly be prohibiting something he has never even conceived of. I submit the idea of a local Pastor, like our contemporary pastors who functions much like a CEO (authority) seems to have never crossed Paul’s mind. Paul is not considering if women are capable, or suited, or gifted, or even feel they are called into a certain role. His other writings confirm that he feels women are co-equal in Christ; very capable, well-suited, gifted, and even called into various roles of ministry and public service contrary to conventional customs and social mores. All of the women you have mentioned all served in important ways, and were used by God to advance His Kingdom. But, as these women were following the same Christ as Paul, and listening to the same Holy Spirit as Paul, I am assured they all carried out these functions and roles in a manner befitting of women of God; the manner described to us best by The Apostle Paul.
I appreciate your individual points of view. I always learn something from you all.
KP
KP, what exactly do you believe Paul prohibits women from doing in 1 Timothy 2:12?
You reject applying Paul’s words to the modern distinction between ordinary ministry and the office of a lead pastor, so what do you believe Paul is actually prohibiting when he says, “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man”?
If you don’t want to respond to what I have said in the past, that’s perfectly fine by me.
Due to past eras when women were treated as second-class citizens in every arena, many assume that the biblical restrictions on the role of women in the church are part of that sexist mentality. Others assert that, since culture has erased most gender distinctions, the church should as well. Others point out that a woman may be just as gifted as—or better than—a man in public speaking and biblical insight, so she should be able to preach in the same way that men do. It is a divisive issue, and we need to look at what the Bible says.
The Bible contains God’s guidelines for gender roles within His ordered world. Those roles are different, not greater or lesser. Red and green are different colors. One is not greater than the other, but they are used for different purposes. Together, they complement each other, filling our world with brilliant color. If everything was red or everything was green, we would not appreciate the beauty of either. So it is with gender complementarianism. When men and women work together within their God-designated assignments, God’s kingdom flourishes.
Women are called to many areas of service, and they receive gifts from the Holy Spirit just as men do. They should fulfill those callings and use those gifts just as men should. Women with a gift for teaching should use that gift, but within scriptural guidelines. Those guidelines can be found in 1 Timothy 2:12. The emphasis is clear: God designates qualified men to be the leadership in the church with women and most men serving in supporting roles. This does not necessarily mean that men cannot or should not learn from women; it means that women should not have spiritual authority over men. The position of pastor or elder is a role reserved for men—who must also meet certain qualifications (see Titus 1:5–9).
A woman who is gifted in teaching or evangelizing has many avenues for using her gift in the church, as long as she is not usurping the God-given spiritual authority of men. In most complementarian churches, women teach other women and children while mixed adult classes are led by men. A woman may be an excellent communicator and a terrific preacher, but her skill does not negate the Bible’s pattern. She should not be preaching to men, as if she were their spiritual leader, regardless of her giftedness. The biblical prohibition against a woman usurping spiritual authority in the church means, at the very least, that women should not be the definers of doctrine within the church. The authoritative interpreters of Scripture—the setters of the spiritual course—are to be men.
Acts 18:24–26 relates the story of Apollos being taught by a husband-and-wife team named Priscilla and Aquila. Apollos received that teaching, learned the fullness of the gospel message, and became a more dynamic evangelist. Was Priscilla a prototype of modern “woman preachers”? No, the passage is clear that the instruction Apollos received was informal, private, and conducted by both Priscilla and her husband: “They invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately” (verse 26). Priscilla helped share the gospel with Apollos; she was never seen as his spiritual authority in a church setting. Paul later calls Priscilla and her husband “co-workers” with him (Romans 16:3).
Some women who are gifted communicators feel called to preach, and in many cases they could do a better job than men in the pulpit. But it is important that they approach the issue biblically and voluntarily limit themselves to those avenues God has designated.
Taking on a pastoral role, deciding a church’s spiritual direction, and other ways of exercising authority over men in the church go beyond God’s plan.
In full agreement with this article from Got Questions.
J.
Amen @PeterC and in full agreement with you here. No women behind a pulpit, reserved for Gpd ordained “pastors” only.
Shalom.
J.
Like I said before, you pick and choose what you want to believe, even when it directly contradicts the written Word.
Good luck with that.
The thing a pastor is a servant of God. He is acting in service of God Leading God’s people. Where in the bible does it say a pastor assumes authority over the church?
The pastor is the leader of the church, that places him in a position of authority. That is why they are told not to “lord it over” their congregations.
Yes.
I have not looked into that, but now I will. I runs in agreement with numerous other passages.
If a pastor is fundamentally a servant, then they arent the source of the authority. The source of the authority is God. since they just a vessel, claiming the position is the source of power is a complete contradiction, Authority doesnt come from the title it comes from the one they serving. The title is just a label. Besides preaching can you give me one concrete example of authority the pastor exercises?
First and foremost when paul says in the book of timothy 2:12 “I suffer a woman not to teach or assume authority over a man.” He is giving his own stance as part of the advise he giving to timothy on the issues he was experiencing from the women in his church in Ephesus. The whole book of 1 timothy Is a letter to timothy. It was a personal letter.
The word “leader” can be a loaded term. In the context of the New Testament, leadership and authority are always to be understood through the shape and form of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. That is why Christ commands His apostles not to “lord over”–the form, the shape, of leadership is always in the form of service, leadership happens from below, not from above. That is why pastors are to be understood as serving their Sacred Office as those who minister–who serve–and act in the stead of Christ to shepherd. Thus the congregation does, indeed, regard the pastor with deference, because the pastor stands and acts in persona Christi while serving as shepherd and while preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments; but the pastor is never an autocrat over the Church.
Autocracy has no place in the Holy Church of Jesus Christ. The Sacred Ministry of Word and Sacrament, is the position of servant, rather than master.
Also, since pastors are called and ordained by the Church, the Church therefore also stands above pastors, a pastor who is abusive, or unable to carry out their calling, can be dismissed. Pastors are accountable to their congregations, and to the Church at large–and so while the pastor exercises authority through servanthood and acting in persona Christi; congregations can discipline their pastors, and call for the revocation of their post if they fail to be living into the calling to which they have been called. As it is written, “To whom much is given, much is required”.
We must always reject any form of autocracy; for the Church knows one Master: Jesus Christ.
Here’s my take on this subject: after The Fall, the curse pronounced by God “your desire shall be for your husband, yet he shall rule over you.” In other words a women’s desire will be for her husband’s position but he will thwart that. Women are generally willful. Now, men are basically selfish. Particularly, in the church, men will tend to excuse themselves and say to themselves, well, if the woman wants to lead them I’m going to go golfing or fishing. Have at it. Also, tends to hold true in spiritual things in their families as well.
Thusly, church leadership was instituted by God to prevail against our proclivities of willfulness and selfishness. Qualifications for elder “husband of one wife”, etc. Does this mean women are inferior or less smart than men? Hardly! It’s just God’s plan for His church. Men can’t excuse themselves and women can’t take over. Now, if this happens in your church, men abdicating their responsibilities and the women step up, I don’t necessarily see this as a reason to leave your church. Major on the majors and not on the minors.