I am constantly hearing about how evil California is and that Christians are leaving there for the south and Midwest. But California is such a pretty state. Why would God allow such a pretty place to be hostile to Christians, and the places that are more Christian (south and Midwest) not as pretty?
Also, do you believe there is a “Promised Land” for Christians to live by God? A special place set aside? Some say it’s the southern United States, especially Tennessee . What do you think?
It is not California. It is the whole world. Jesus warned us of this.
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:18
This is why we are told,
“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.” 1 John 2:15-17
This is why we keep warning people.
“You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” James 4:4
Eventually, all that is, and was, will be gone.
" And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever." 1 John 2:17
Don’t be stuck on the wrong side. And to answer the other question, no. I think America was, however, we pretty much messed that up.
Peter
I feel like California just happens to be getting a lot of media attention right now. The unfortunate truth is that this craziness is happening all over.
When do you think America stopped being the promised land?
And if God did set aside for a haven for Christians how come the Bible says “go into all the world” and “every tounge and nation”
I don’t think that America ever was the “promised land” @Josiah, even though at its beginning, many Christians lived here. However, many of the Founders were deists, not Christians, who believe that God has created the universe but then “has gone on vacation” from it, so to speak, to become completely uninvolved in it. On the other hand, I do pray for spiritual revival in America.
I do not believe that America was a “promised land.” However, contrary to what @Bruce_Leiter said, we were founded on the Judeo/ Christian belif system. Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments. Freedom OF Religion, not from, is in our Constitution. In God we trust on our money. The Blue law, to promote God, family, and rest.
This is simply not true. The overwhelming majority of the Founders were traditional Christians who believed in the authority of the Bible, the Trinity, and the active intervention of God in human history. John Jay: The first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and a massive figure in the founding. He was the president of the American Bible Society and explicitly wrote that it was the duty of a Christian nation to select Christians as its rulers.
Patrick Henry: Famous for “Give me liberty, or give me death,” Henry was a devout Christian who wrote in his will that the greatest gift he could leave his family was his faith in Jesus Christ. Samuel Adams: Known as the “Father of the American Revolution,” he was a deeply religious Puritan who constantly called for days of public prayer and fasting.
This is where people like George Washington, John Adams, and James Madison fall. Calling them " strict deists" is historically incorrect. A strict deist believes in a “Clockmaker God” who created the universe and then completely walked away, never answering prayers or intervening. Washington and Adams did not believe that. They spoke constantly of “Divine Providence,” an active, caring God who directly intervened to help America win the Revolutionary War. While their private letters show they wrestled with certain orthodox theological dogmas (such as the exact nature of the Trinity), they frequently attended Christian services and funded churches. They believed Christianity was absolutely vital to public morality.
Now it is true that there were a few prominent Founders who genuinely rejected orthodox Christianity in favor of rationalism: Thomas Jefferson. He famously cut out the miracles of Jesus from his personal Bible with a razor, keeping only Christ’s moral teachings. He considered himself a follower of Jesus’ morals, but rejected his divinity. ( 1. Source: [Smithsonian National Museum of American History / Smithsonian Magazine] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/why-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-180975716/) 2. Official Exhibit Info: Smithsonian Books Product Details)
Benjamin Franklin: In his own autobiography, Franklin admitted that he entertained deist views in his youth, though later in life he became much more open to the idea of a God who actively governs the affairs of men. ( * Source: Baylor University Magazine)
Thomas Paine: Paine was a fierce, outspoken critic of institutional Christianity and wrote heavily against the Bible in The Age of Reason. (Notably, his radical views made him so unpopular with the other Founders that only a handful of people attended his funeral). ( Source: University of Michigan Clements Library (Revolutionary Paine Exhibit))
Saying “the Founders were deists” is like looking at a crowded room, picking out the two or three most eccentric people, and assuming everyone else thinks exactly like them. The cultural and spiritual fabric of the American founding was undeniably grounded in the Christian tradition, even if a few of its primary architects held more unorthodox, rationalist views in private.
Continued…
The problem, as I see it, is when we remove God. Our “Declaration of Independence” states, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.” Our Constitution’s First Amendment reads this way: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” That is freedom OF Religion. NOT freedom FROM Religion. Sorry, there is no wall.
Yet? The whole reason we even exist as a country is being forgotten and done away with. We do not honor God. As a matter of fact, we as a nation violate the whole basis of our laws, the Ten Commandments, daily
1- Have no other gods before God? In America today, any god will do. Or even better, no god at all.
2- Thou shalt not commit Idolatry. America today? Along with the rest of the world. Money, Self, and even Astrology are our Idols. The Self Idol is becoming an ever-increasing commonplace with the Internet. Look at me. Check out how many followers I have. I may even get paid if I have enough followers. What are they following you for?
3-Do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. America today? Keep that God stuff to yourself. He does not belong in society. He is nothing important to the masses.
4- Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. America today? We live in a 24-7-7 society. You do not get to choose easily when you work or when you do not. Besides, even if you are off, Saturday is a fun day. A time of drinking and doing all those things you can’t do during the week.
5- Honour your father and mother. America today? The government has become the father in many households. We have turned away from our obligation and given it to others, including Nursing Homes.
6-Thou shalt not commit murder. America today? Abortion.
7- Thou shalt not commit adultery. America today? Who cares? It is nothing more than a piece of paper. Everyone has the right to marry anyone. If it does not work out? Who cares? No big deal. We even have TV shows based on people cheating.
8- Thou shalt not steal. America today? Well, that all depends. If you are taking money from a millionaire to give it to someone who doesn’t have much, that is cool. It’s not fair that someone has millions, and someone else has to struggle to pay bills.
9- You shall not bear false witness. America today? Seriously?
10- Thou shalt not covet. America today? Lotto? Lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead? All is ok. No big deal.
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
Sadly, even some of our churches have gotten away from teaching the truth according to God, yes, this is where “TAG” came from, and have started teaching only those things the people want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
The Prosperity Gospel is a big one. Name it and claim it? Homosexuality and Transgenderism is ok. There is no hell. No devil. In some cases, there is no god at all. America Today? In America, we have decided not only to accept sin, but we have also decided to justify it. They are clear-cut, crystal clear, Sins. They are against God and against nature itself. Yet, as a nation, we have decided to justify them and make them normal. Of course, some will become offended by the message today. I get that.
However? The Truth is the Truth, regardless of your acceptance of it or not. God is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. If you find yourself offended by the Word of God, it is YOU that you need to reexamine. Not God. Remember, when you remove God, something ALWAYS takes His place.
Peter
It’s about how you live is how you change the culture and world, not expecting other people to change until you do. There are Christians in the most hostile places like North Korea and Iran. so if there’s Christians there I think we can be Christian here
@PeterC, why do you misquote me that “the Founders were deists,” when I actually said that “many of the Founders were deists.” Your post actually documented my claim. Thank you for that help.
With words like God, Lord, and Creator found in the Declaration of Independence, it is easy to assume that the founders of the United States were Christians. John Adams, the nation’s second President, said, “The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity” (The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, ed., Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1856, Vol. III, p. 421, diary entry for July 26, 1796). Benjamin Franklin, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, wrote to Yale president Ezra Stiles, “I think the system of morals and [Jesus’] religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see” (Works of Benjamin Franklin, John Bigelow, ed., New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904, p. 185). Such statements imply that Christianity was influential in the founders’ lives.
The reality is that the Founding Fathers were a diverse group of individuals. There is varied evidence as to the religious affiliation of several of the founders. George Washington is often cited as an Episcopalian. His public addresses contain many statements that support the claim that Washington was, in fact, a committed Christian.
There is also evidence that Washington was only nominal in his faith.
Thomas Jefferson made statements implying he was a Christian, but his brand of Christianity was dubious, at best. Jefferson rejected the supernatural accounts of the Bible, the Trinity, and the incarnation of Christ. James Madison was Anglican, but he is also argued to be a deist.
Thomas Paine never served in any elected capacity, but he had great influence in the early years of the country. Paine was not a Christian; in his work The Age of Reason, he attacked the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.
There is little doubt that the principles upon which the United States was founded are indeed found in the Bible. Equality, liberty, and justice are all biblical principles. The faith of the founders, on the other hand, will continue to be debated. Did the founders respect God and the Christian religion? Absolutely. Were they influenced by the Bible? Surely. Were they all born-again believers in Jesus Christ? No.
Even in reading what the founders themselves stated and wrote for the public, none of us will ever truly know their hearts. The apostle Paul wrote, “The Lord knows those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). While it is interesting to research the religious convictions of the founders, only God truly knows the ones who put faith in Jesus. More important than the heart condition of the Founding Fathers, is the spiritual condition of those presently in public office. It is our duty to pray for rulers and those in positions of authority (1 Timothy 2:2).
This is steelmanning your question and argument.
J.
Hello Bruce. I never misquoted you. I “quoted” wxcatly what you said. However, I can see our interpretations of the word “Many” may differ. There were a small number that was not very significant to the founding of our country. That was all. Yes, you are correct that some were.
No real disagreement or argument, brother. May God be with you.
Peter
And God bless you and make you a blessing too, @PeterC.