Yes Peter I am a pre-trib, and look at history through God`s purposes for - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ. God made each for an eternal purpose.
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He was seen by two. He tells us that when He “returns,” no one will miss it.
“And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.” Luke 17:23-24
The entrance, the key, if you will, is inside you. His name is the holy Spirit. And yes, we are waiting for:
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.”
Just one little thing that has not happened yet.
Peter
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One “thing” will be our bodily resurrections with perfect, glorious bodies:
Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Another “little thing,” @PeterC, is the new Jerusalem, a picture of the Old and New Testament people of God coming down to the new earth.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Also, the final judgment of all people is a future “thing.”
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
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Peter—
Yes---- when he ACTUALLY returns every eye will see Him. The Transfiguration was a foreshadowing of that event, which I mentioned several times. Jesus said "SOME standing here will not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming with power…The next verse!! (Matt. 17:1) speaks of Jesus taking Peter, John and James up into the mountain with Him. They were most definitely the “some” Jesus was talking about.
My point was that Jesus did not say something that was fulfilled in AD 70. It WILL BE FULFILLED in the FUTURE! Peter is reminding his readers in 2 Peter that HE SAW the RETURN OF JESUS and that it will MOST DEFINITELY HAPPEN!! Don’t believe the mockers Peter says—it WILL HAPPEN just as HE SAW IT on the Holy Mount. This is my whole point.
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That dog won’t hunt too much longer. Prophecy-mongers, who make merchandise of God’s Word, have been beating that dead horse for 150 years, and every one of their breathless, hysterical, frantic oracles has been wrong.
Yet, there seems to be an addictive component to this perspective, that keeps it in circulation. Where the demand exists, opportunity beckons for those who procure the supply. Ask any pimp. Or prophecy monger.
Let me cite an insightful speech from a movie villain:
As Governor Nix (Hugh Laurie) demanded to know, “what would you do with that information?”
“How do you think people responded to the prospect of imminent demise? They gobbled it up, like chocolate éclair. They didn’t fear their demise, they repackaged it. It could be enjoyed as video games, TV shows, books, movies. The whole world embraced the apocalypse and sprinted towards it with gleeful abandon. … All around you the coal-mine canaries are dropping and you won’t take the hint. 𝐈𝐧 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫𝐲 𝐦𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭, 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐨𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐚 𝐛𝐞𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐟𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐫𝐞. 𝐁𝐮𝐭 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐩𝐞𝐨𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐰𝐨𝐧’𝐭 𝐛𝐞𝐥𝐢𝐞𝐯𝐞 𝐢𝐭. And because you won’t believe it, you won’t do what is necessary to make it a reality. … so you dwell on this terrible future, you resign yourselves to it, for one reason: 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗮𝘂𝘀𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗳𝘂𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗲𝘀 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗮𝘀𝗸 𝗮𝗻𝘆𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝗳 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝘁𝗼𝗱𝗮𝘆.”
Then, there’s the last word, the bottom line:
“Go out there and find the ones that haven’t given up yet. They’re the future.”
(The amazing movie “Tomorrowland.” Strong recommend! Fatalism is a very bad thing. Things can be different – and better!)
That’s strange, that’s what Apostle Peter revealed the deceived say…
2 Peter 3:3-7
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV
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Hi Davey. I would not subsribe to the view that Israel is the Rev 17 Harlot. But I have given it consideration. Here is a ChatGPT search on the different views on that point of view concerning Israel.
My view is not represented there. Which is that Babylon the Great is America. Not today. But in the tribulation age I believe it becomes that. That is my view. But interestingly enough, there seems to be significant activity developing in old world Babylon (the literal location). If the Saudi Arabian launches of AI tourist cities takes off, then it would make a a lot of sense a city like old world Babylon might be revived enough to become massive in a short time.
So I do keep an open mind of Israel fitting that role. As well as old world Babylon. But I still think it is the USA because I would see we become very powerful at our midterms. And although that is good for the age of grace, it will be bad for the tribulation. I see that as the go to because America makes the most sense near term. And we are still in a massive uptick economical flux. And it seems that there is a lot of massive like prophetic oriented world changing socio-political shifts in our world today. So it just seems near enough for the USA to take the honors, if you will. In my estimation anywayz. Blessings.
I believe the important line of demarcation occurs in Matthew 24:36. This is where the Lord Jesus specifically talks about His Parousia, where He comes to judge the quick and the dead. We should take note that He never offers a sign here, but instead speaks entirely of no one knowing, of the day coming suddenly and without warning. Hence why the necessity for the servants to be faithful and watchful; so He speaks of the Parable of the Virgins and the Parable of the Talents to communicate the need to be watchful and faithful–since the Master and Bridgroom comes when no one expects.
So no, I don’t believe the Lord’s 2nd coming, His Parousia, has happened. That won’t happen until the last and final day. But as it pertains to the signs mentioned, those refer to the events of the first century, leading up to the destruction of the Temple in the first Jewish-Roman War. The generation the Lord spoke of, did indeed see these things. And those who heard Him speak, did not taste death before beholding the Lord coming into His kingdom, when He ascended and took His throne as King Messiah over all things at the right hand of the Father. So that heaven should receive Him until the restoration of all things; and He must reign until every enemy is defeated and all things are subject to Him–the last enemy being death. For when He does come again, He comes and the dead are raised, and death is swallowed up in victory.
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The last verse of Revelation 17 tells us the “woman” in that Chapter is a “great city”.
And in Revelation 11:8 we are shown the “great city” is where God’s “two witnesses” will be killed, and also where our Lord Jesus was crucified.
That cannot point to any other place except… JERUSALEM.
Not my opinion, it’s what the Revelation Scripture is showing. And just so happens the “abomination of desolation” event Jesus quoted from Daniel for the tribulation He showed will happen in Jerusalem-Judea.
Likewise, Apostle Paul was pointing to Jerusalem with that “temple of God” the coming Antichrist (“man of sin”) will sit in and play God.
Also, the Revelation 11:1-2 Scripture points to a rebuilt stone temple in Jerusalem and those who worship therein, but the outer court being left for the Gentiles, as they will trample the city for 42 months, the time of reign by the dragon on Rev.13.
Everything about the end pulls together in Bible prophecy pointing to JERUSALEM, and not anywhere else.
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Sorry, I cannot buy into that misinterpretation of those Scriptures. If we want the Truth, then we have to stay with what is actually written. And most of the time that means staying with simple English grammar too.
I know Lord Jesus’ 2nd coming has not… yet happened, so I have no time to waste arguing that point.
And those SIGNS Jesus was giving in His Olivet discourse were not all about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Men’s doctrines like to use that as an excuse to add other doctrines though. Those SIGNS are the Seals of Revelation 6, given to His Church about the ‘end’ of this world. That is why the last SIGN Jesus gave is about the day of His future coming and gathering of His Church.
And in His command for us to learn the parable of a fig tree, He identified that generation He spoke of would see ALL THOSE SIGNS in their day, and that includes the last SIGN He gave of His 2nd coming. That means He was speaking of the LAST generation on earth that will SEE His 2nd coming, which is still future to us.
How is it that you don’t recognize all this, it is so simple to understand.
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Why would I believe that the Revelation has to do with the end of the world?
Because that is what it says? Sorry, I was trying to stay out of this debate. Back to you.
Peter
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I understand how you are looking at this. Which is why I provided a link to other views contrary among scholars. I don’t believe “The Great City” has to have only one reference. And that it is always 1 city meant.
I believe that the 10 confederate rulers that give the AC power for 1 hour do it leaning into the second half of the tribulation. Babylon the Great harlot is destroyed by the very last bowl judgement–at the end of the tribulation. So when the beast turns on the harlot, it has to be “after” Israel flees Jerusalem (when the AC demands worship).
So what is going on with Israel during the tribulation? During the first half there is their temple rebuilt. The AC then demands worship at the midpoint of the tribulation. Jerusalem flees because the AC is hunting them down (according to Rev 12). Those that remain in Jerusalem either take the mark or die. Like everywhere else the AC will demand worship.
From the midpoint to the 5th bowl (darkness over Santan’s ruling kingdom). what is going on in Jerusalem? We are not told. I believe during the 5th bowl some Israeli’s migrate back to Jerusalem because the final battle of the tribulation is Armageddon. Where Isreal is seen as the people Jesus defends in the battle of Armageddon (please see also Zech 13-14).
Your view dear brother may have merit. It may turn out that it is accurate. But there is plenty of scholarship and research that are reasonable to consider not hanging '“everything” on a term, “The Great City.”
Jonah 1:2 says that Nineveh is “the great city.” I believe the first rule OVER AND ABOVE word meanings in the bible is context, context, context. I believe brother it is safer exegetically to start with context not phrases to know best potential biblical meanings. Hope that make some sense perhaps. Blessings.
That “great city” symbol is only one clue in the context of Jerusalem being where these end time prophecies culminate. I gave several others.
And furthermore, do we as disciples of Christ actually need to only refer to the opinions of Bible scholars? Are you aware that some Bible scholars on the modern English Bible translations are not even Christians? Thus Academia is a Black Hole when it comes to understanding God’s Word. Only God through The Holy Spirit can give us, and them (scholars) the proper interpretation of His Word.
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Did you look at the Ezekiel 16 Chapter like I suggested?
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I don’t recall you suggesting. Ez 16 is the explanation for what occurs in the book of lamentations historically. What is you meaning in bringing it up?
Are you aware that we live in the most narcissistic time in known history? Granted scholars are off all over the place. I don’t go by scholars vs the word. But there is a danger too in us sensing the spirit is showing us something when it may be in part something we see because we have not known other potential ways of understanding something.
My reference to other scholars was because there are other verses involved. In my sense i gave you the “bible’s” own overview trajectory of Israel in the tribulation. Not what scholars think. So how does the 7th bowl comport with Jesus rescuing Israel in Armageddon (in conjunction with Zech 13 and 14)? How is it that Jesus conquers for Israel while judging them in the 7th bowl?
. . . . .
I’m not trying to debate. In part i consider your view. But we are an extremely opinion heavy (thinking it is the spirit showing us organically things) era. To not be aware of how subjective we can be is a danger brother. Just saying. Blessings.
Dr_S-
You said: “That dog won’t hunt too much longer. Prophecy-mongers, who make merchandise of God’s Word, have been beating that dead horse for 150 years, and every one of their breathless, hysterical, frantic oracles has been wrong.”
Please remember that Noah preached for 120 years that a huge judgment was coming. He continued to build the ark as the multitudes mocked and laughed. You can be sure that many of the people had the very attitude you are using: “Why prepare for some “fantasy” judgment this man is spouting off about? He’s been saying this for over a 100 years!! Ha! Ha! He’s preparing for a fake tomorrow–why doesn’t he live for today?”
I probably mentioned it to someone else. It is involving where the Babylon Harlot symbol is applied to Jerusalem by God Himself because of Jerusalem’s history of false worship.
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I’m not against the good scholars which God has provided us English speaking peoples. For example, the study Bible I use is a KJV put together with a side margin of scholarly notes done in the later 1800’s by the British Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger. It is called The Companion Bible. Just with all the work he did in the Appendixes makes it worth having a copy.
However… Bullinger lived in an era in late 1800’s Britain when the Pre-trib Rapture theory was first preached in Britain by Darby and associates, and Bullinger fell into that trap. He even became the founder of the false Hyper-Dispensationalist movement which furthers the doctrines of Darby’s pre-trib rapture theory idea of a separation between God’s Israel and the Church. That Dispensationalist doctrine is responsible for the Pre-trib school trying to point to Christ’s disciples upon the Mount of Olives with Him as not representing Christ’s early Church.
So even good Bible scholars are not immune to Satan’s workers that creep in.
Apostle Paul commended the brethren at Berea that went into The Word for themselves and checked out what Paul was preaching, to see if it were so. That is what we are supposed to do also, and not just accept what man says hook-line-and-sinker.
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