Christ’s Olivet discourse covers that. Per Ephesians 2 the foundation of Christ’s early Church are His Apostles and prophets, with Lord Jesus Himself as its Chief Corner Stone. If a follower of Jesus Christ does not recognize that from the start, then they will not be able to distinguish between the believing seed of Israel compared with the unbelieving seed of Israel.
And yet another Biblical topic that must be understood is God’s split of old Israel into two separate nations, as it still is to this day. In the Book of Hosea, God revealed what He would do with the ten northern tribes of Israel that He scattered out of the holy land. He said He would make a new covenant with them, and they would no more be called Lo-Ami (not My people). He spiritually divorced the ten tribes for playing the spiritual harlot against Him. But in final, per Hosea, He showed they would once again in final become ‘Ami’ (My people), and would take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and He would do this once they were scattered in the “wilderness”. Apostle Paul quoted about this in Romans 9 to Roman Gentile believers on Jesus Christ, which reveals what? It reveals where the ten tribes were scattered to and wound up, in the Western nations.
And linked to that Bible history that begins at 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, is God’s prophecy to Jacob, which was then passed on to Joseph’s younger son Ephraim. (Continued…)
In Genesis 35, God told Jacob that his seed would become “a nation, and a company of nations”. (KJV) Yet the nation of Israel has only ever been but one nation. So who are those “company of nations”?
In Genesis 48, when Jacob was on his death bed, his son Joseph brought his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh to Jacob to pass on the blessing. Jacob blessed Ephraim over the elder Manasseh. Joseph tried to correct Jacob’s hands, but Jacob said that Ephraim’s seed would become “a multitude of nations”, but that his brother Manasseh would also become “great.” Thus Jacob passed on God’s Birthright blessing to Ephraim.
Per 1 Kings 11, when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of Solomon allowing his many wives to bring false worship in among the children of Israel, God then gave ten tribes to Jeroboam of the tribe of EPHRAIM. God made Jeroboam “king of Israel”, its capital city at Samaria in the northern holy land.
The southern kingdom with Solomon’s son Rehoboam of Judah, of the house of David, remained in Jerusalem-Judea as the “kingdom of Judah”, and these became known as Jews, made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and eventually the tribe of Levi and some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam’s calf idol worship.
The two kingdoms actually had war against other. Rehoboam tried to bring the kingdom back together, but God told him that this division was of Him, and not to go up to fight against his brethren of the “house of Israel” (ten northern tribes).
After a while, the ten northern tribes still kept Jeroboam’s old calf idols worship until God got tired of it, and scattered the ten northern tribes out of the holy land, by the kings of Assyria, in stages. And to this day, the majority of the ten tribes have never returned. Then a study of the Book of Hosea shows what God would do with the ten tribes after He scattered them.
Both kingdoms in Bible prophecy have different names after that split. If the Bible student does not know this, they will make mistakes in applying Bible prophecy to the wrong group. After… the split, the kingdom at Jerusalem-Judea, the Jews, became known as the “kingdom of Judah”, or the “house of Judah”, or just “Judah”, or just “Jerusalem”, or Jerusalem as “Aholibah”, or as just “Israel”.
The ten northern tribe kingdom under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as “king of Israel” was known as the “kingdom of Israel”, or the “house of Israel”, or as just “Samaria”, or as just “Ephraim”, or as “Joseph”, or “Samaria” as “Ahola”. These are not the Jews of the southern kingdom. These ten tribes God scattered first, about 120 years prior to Judah’s Babylon captivity by Nebuchadnezzar.
Those “multitude of nations” that Ephraim’s seed would become, represent the Western Christian nations of history. Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the “house of Israel”, and that does not… mean the majority of the southern kingdom of Jews who rejected The Gospel. The “house of Israel” means the ten northern tribes only, with Ephraim as the head tribe. To them, while scattered among the Gentiles, would receive The Gospel, and they along with the believing Gentiles would become Christ’s Church in the Christian West.
Once again, understanding that requires remembering what all is to happen on that “day of the Lord” when Jesus comes to gather His Church.
Peter said man’s works will be burned off the earth on that day.
Zechariah 14 shows a portion of the wicked will be disintegrated on that day.
A great earthquake unlike that has never happened before will occur on that day.
All the islands will be moved, and the mountains will fall.
Those alive will see Christ coming in the clouds, including those who pierced Him (i.e., Satan’s host).
All… still alive on earth will be ‘changed’ to the body of incorruption at the twinkling of an eye. Christ’s elect still alive will be “caught up” to Jesus and the asleep elect He brings with Him to earth.
There shall not be one stone atop another at that area in Jerusalem that Jesus pointed to in His Olivet discourse. The 70 A.D. destruction was only a ‘type’ and did not completely fulfill the prophecy, as the Wailing Wall of great stones still exist today atop one another at the temple mount area.
The end of Hebrews 12 reveals God is going to shake this earth once more so the things that can be moved will be destroyed while those things that cannot be moved shall remain.
At that point, there will be no more flesh death for man, but only the “second death” of the soul/spirit cast into the later “lake of fire” and perish.
The unsaved, which will be made up of the unbelievers, and those who erred, including those like the “five foolish virgins”, will have their place in the “outer darkness” and not allowed inside the gates of the holy city and cannot approach Jesus in that time to serve Him at His table. Only Christ’s elect Church will be able.
Thanks for the explanation. I’ve never made that connection. I understand how you are seeing it. And it makes sense to see what you do. In that sense there is Hosea that does the same thing too. The way I have always understood those is that God would make a special case of the Jews because He chose them. So there is that personal aspect.
However, for context, a good question to ask in a “general” sense is: Does the bible call any other people harlots other than Israel? And if it does, on the merits of exegesis and hermeneutic it would at least be something to consider as a matter of context. And perhaps how much we might be permitting something to mean perhaps beyond its contextual import.
Samaria and Jerusalem together –
In Ezekiel 23, Samaria (Oholah) and Jerusalem (Oholibah) are depicted as two sisters committing harlotry with foreign nations.
. . . . .
Nahum 3:4 (said of Nineveh)
“Because of the multitude of the harlotries of the well-favored harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms…”
Isaiah 23:15–17 (said of Tyre)
“Take a harp, go about the city, O forgotten harlot… After seventy years the LORD will visit Tyre, and she will return to her hire and commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world.”
Thanks for all that. We would see differently on a number of points. I’m the kind of person that is very open to my view being challenged and upended. I’ve always been pretrib rapture but held those feet to the fire. And went for 15 hours of the most hardcore pressing counter argument debates to pretrib. And even though the pretrib camp has its bogus takes, to me, pretrib is the only one standing. But that is just an example of where we might differ elsewhere.
So it sounds like what you are saying is that the 7th bowl judgement is not really a city but a collection of sinning Israel scattered throughout the earth?
You’ll find that God in His Word uses the harlot metaphor for His people more than pointing to strictly pagan nations. So it’s not about trying to determine generalities about the word harlot. It’s the fact that He used that idea for His people when they go about worshiping other things other than Himself, so we should keep that simple as it is written. Thus trying to push the meaning beyond its contextual importance would be adding to His Word.
Revelation 17:18 says the symbolic “woman” of that Chapter, the Babylon Harlot, is a “great city”.
That “great city” label is used ten times in Revelation, and two of those times is about Jerusalem, one for earthly Jerusalem fallen in false worship, and the other final one about the New Jerusalem coming down to this earth. Do you not grasp that pattern? Why would earthly Jerusalem fall into false worship and become a ‘harlot’ city at the end of this world? What is going to happen there at the end of this present world?
When Lord Jesus comes, the whole world is going to know it. And that includes the unbelieving Jews also, in all… the world. I realize that some ‘men’ try to apply Christ’s judgements on the day of His future coming only upon Jerusalem and the Jews, but those men aren’t staying in God’s written Word.
Do you recall that Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 said that on the “last trump”, all that are alive will be changed at the twinkling of an eye? What is that “last trump”? It is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11, the day of Christ’s coming. On that day is when we enter into the world to come, which is going to involve some changes on this earth, but not all the wicked and unbelieving are destroyed on that day.
Christ’s faithful elect Church still alive on earth will see Jesus as we are “caught up” to Him on His way to earthly Jerusalem. But the unbelieving and those who fell away will suddenly wake up like they have been in a dream once they are changed on that day, and they will see Jesus coming in the clouds, including the unbelieving Jews who pierced Him. These will then immediately be in shame for having rejected Him, which Lord Jesus showed in Luke 23 using His parable of 'Blessed are the barren…".
Sorry to hear that, because Lord Jesus already showed us the timing of His future coming to gather His Church will be after the tribulation…
Matt 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. KJV
Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. KJV
Lord Jesus spoke that to His early Church that was with Him upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1, and is where He will return to in like manner, bringing all His saints with Him on the day of His coming, as per Zechariah 14.
If you research the different usages of Matt and Mark on the four winds there are links to such language being used in the old testament indicating “earth” not heaven. Even when it uses the word or concept heaven.
1. Deuteronomy 30:4
“If your outcasts are at the ends of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you…”
2. Nehemiah 1:9
“Though your exiles are at the farthest horizon [literally, ‘at the end of heaven’], I will gather them from there…”
Again, the people are living on earth, scattered among nations.
3. Deuteronomy 4:32
“From one end of heaven to the other…”
Here Moses speaks of searching all the earth, not heaven itself.
5. Ezekiel 37:9
“Come from the four winds, O breath…”
The four winds represent the four directions of the world.
6. Daniel 7:2
“The four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.”
Again, the phrase refers to earthly events.
7. Zechariah 2:6
“I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heavens.”
Israel’s dispersion among the nations is in view.
…
There is a longer list if interested. I am not interested to debate rapture timing. I spent 15 hours in hardcore opposition to my view to honestly consider other views. And of course Matt 24:31 came up. Best answer I can tell is it is the answer to Jesus parable: Matt 13:24-30 (wheat and tares). Matt 24:31 is describing the angels gathering Israel from around the world to come into the thousand year reign mode with Christ. This is not the rapture.
What I am interested in (other than how I add to the word of God) is this: Please describe how you understand what is going on here:
Rev 16:
**17 **Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the [h]temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.” **18 **And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since mankind came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. **19 **The great city [i]was split into three parts, and the cities of the [j]nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of [k]His fierce wrath. **20 **And every island fled, and no mountains were found. **21 **And huge [l]hailstones, weighing about [m]a talent each, *came down from heaven upon people; and people blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because [n]the hailstone plague *was extremely [o]severe.
It is argued that Zech 14 is detailing events at the end of the tribulation moving into the thousand year reign with Christ. Do you believe that Zech 14 is not detailing that?
If Zech 14 is showing us what happens in the Jerusalem area at the end of the tribulation AND Rev 16 is showing us that God is judging Babylon the Great by splitting it, remembering it, and judging it severely in the 7th bowl judgement, what you are seeming to say is this:
lol. Hey Johann. Thanks for jumping in. My answer to that brother is i have a spread sheet that demonstrates the concept of “chosen” throughout the word of God where we can plainly see over time and usage its organic biblical senses. The way the West uses it today is to mean Calvinism. That is not its radiational overarching sense from a ton of verses. If you would like to provide me your email i can sent that to you to check out.
The elect in that sense contextually i believe is Israel. I don’t see the expression there “elect” to be meaning “only the jews.” In the sense that only those being gathered there are saved. But i do believe the elect there are only Jews. I see it meaning jews in context of Jesus explanation to his elect people at the time of the explanation. The Jews. If that makes sense? Good to see you are brother. Blessings.
Just a question, would you say that the ekklēsia has replaced Israel, or do you believe the Church and Israel remain distinct in God’s redemptive plan?
I believe that the church has trumped Israel in their disobedience. And that God has set Israel on the shelf. And the plan now in the age of grace is the church age (where both Jew and gentile are in one body).
But i believe that because of God’s character, His OT promises to national Isreal are still intact. And that in the thousand year reign of Christ Israel will have a prominent place because that is the original template God laid out for the majority of his oracles to go forth.
In that sense i see Israel as a nation to yet be dealt with per God’s character in promises made to that nation. I believe during the tribulation that Israel will come to know Christ. I believe the 144k are Israel nationals reanimated for His kingdom. I believe Rev 10 is a declaration of Israel taking the lead for world gospel canvas after the two witnesses depart. So i would see national Israel as having the mantle of God’s oracles reactivated again in the tribulation.
So in general the way i see it is more stress on the character of God than on plans of redemption. Although yes, there is a different plan of redemption for the nation of Israel in my view. “The nation” though. Not the people. And if that sounds like an unreasonable semantic like argument i apologize that it might. But this would be how i see it dear brother. Blessings.
The question of the millennium is an in-house family debate among Christians and requires diligent study coupled with a willingness to engage robustly in biblical text and its interpretation. The differences between these views are the result of hermeneutical, exegetical, and theological perspectives of Revelation 20 and are not a matter of heresy vs. orthodoxy. The hermeneutical questions one may resolve include how to interpret the language and imagery of Revelation, whether to take numbers as literal or figurative, and how to approach the relationship between the Old Testament in the New Testament. Exegetically, there are differences in how one views the relationship between Revelation 19 and 20 if they are chronologically successive or recapitulative. Theologically, how one views the relationship between Israel and the Church, the nature of prophecy, and the order of eschatological events will determine their hermeneutical and exegetical decisions. The various views, if not anything else, provide ample evidence of the difficulty and complexity of interpreting Revelation 20 and related passages, and this warrants a healthy dose of humility when approaching it.
When studying Revelation and eschatology it is all too easy to lose sight of the call of Christ in Revelation, which is to live victoriously as overcomers of sin, the world, and the devil and to remain faithful to him at all costs because he will make all things right in the end. Whatever view one thinks best reflects the teaching of Scripture, it must always be kept in mind that Scripture always presents the doctrine of last things as a motivation for faithful living. In the end, perhaps John Frame draws our attention to the most important eschatological point:
“So far as I can see, every Bible passage about the return of Christ is written for a practical purpose, not to help us develop a theory of history, but to motivate our obedience.”
In right behavior this cannot be argued. I don’t see others views of Revelation as heresy. I have my strong convictions thus far. And am willing to engage in discussion on different views. For example, I don’t believe that @davyp view on Israel being Babylon the Great is accurate. But I have considered it before and am still open to it.
My main statements in contrast (i know it was a lot of back and forth to read though) are that where i would sense a difference with @davyp view is, to me, likely in his perhaps not researching things out in certain areas. Not that his views are heretical. On the contrary @DavyP might align my mode of discussion as akin to adding to the word of God, would to me would be another way of saying heresy…lol.
So just saying, brother, I am having a conversation here. And I am doing so in the right minded admonition of Revelation. To engage in discussion with a genuine openness to consider the views of another brother is to honor the practice of right living according to the book of Revelation. As it also might extent to your consideration that my many words expressed in my back and forth with @DavyP had possibly leaned in that direction? No.
Or perhaps you might point out where it may not be? If so I would be interested. In my understanding though, the return of Christ yes most certainly is to encourage us to right living. But I believe this would be better pointed at @DavyP because I am not trying to have a conversation about the return of Christ. I am simply wanting to understand @Davyp’s point he is making about Israel as Babylon the Great. This was something @DavyP brought up. Not me.
. . . . .
What i did bring up is my understanding of the first seal. Which to me has everything to do with the character of God. Which i believe is hugely important in our day and age. Because that active and living sense of His character does move us even now unto right mindedness toward living. If my view about the 1st seal is inaccurate, then that is ok. I’m a cessationist. So i don’t claim to know. But even so, if incorrect, i don’t believe I would be about the character of God I would see emphasized in my understanding of the 1st seal. I reference this to provide context for our current attention upon this series of discussion. Blessings.
I understand that this is a common opinion. But when we look at the actual text of the Revelation, it never says “This is about the end of the world”. Instead John is told to write down the things he sees (visions) about what was, is, and will shortly come to pass. And it is addressed to real contemporary Christians living at that time. According to the ordinary rules of biblical exegesis we understand that the context of a text is related to when it was written and for whom it was written. We have a specific audience–the seven churches in Asia. We have a specific historical time when it was written (around 95 AD during the reign of Domitian).
While the Revelation does touch on things which we associate with the conclusion of history: Christ’s second coming, the resurrection of the dead, and the restoration of creation; this does not translate to the entire book being about “the end of the world”. Many books in the Bible deal with future eschatological material such as the Day of Judgment, or the renewal of creation, but we do not assume the entire book to be about “the end of the world”. When Paul mentions the resurrection of the dead and Christ’s return in 1 Corinthians ch. 15, we do not then assume the entire epistle to be about “the end of the world”–but see how Paul deals with contemporary events related to the situation going on in Corinth, and then we pull from that context to understand how we can benefit from the epistle in what it tells us about faith and Christian life.
I believe we should give the same treatment to the Revelation. Just because the Revelation uses apocalyptic imagery doesn’t mean we should abandon the usual principles of biblical exegesis and hermeneutics–we should apply the same principles to the Revelation that we do the rest of the Bible. We should desire to understand what the Revelation meant for a first century readership, what it meant in John’s own time, and derive meaning from the text rather than impose meaning upon the text (exegesis vs eisegesis).
The Revelation, itself, never says it’s about the end of the world. It says that it’s about Jesus Christ, and concerns John writing visions about what has happened, is happening, and will happen. So while, yes, when it talks about Jesus’ return in glory as Judge, that is certainly an event that happens at the conclusion of history (because the rest of Scripture tells us this), it doesn’t mean that the beast rising out from the sea, or Babylon riding a beast is about the “end of the world”–that is an imposition forced upon the text by modern readers.
If such things truly are about the end of the world, this should be derived at through careful biblical exegesis–rather than presumed simply because we have (or most of us have) grown up being told the Revelation is about “the end times”.
Paul is talking about two things. Jesus ’ resurrection and because of this, we are saved, and then His return.
“Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
This has not happened yet.
I think I’m missing your point.
In Revelation 8 and 9, the judgments impact the entire planet’s ecosystem on a scale humanity has never witnessed. The oceans. A third of the sea turns to blood, a third of all sea creatures die, and a third of all ships are destroyed (Rev 8:8-9).
Fresh water. A great star named Wormwood falls on a third of the rivers and springs, making them bitter and causing many people to die from drinking the poisoned water Revelation 8:10-11. The sky. A third of the sun, moon, and stars are struck, plunging the earth into darkness for a third of the day and night Revelation 8:12.
During the fall of Jerusalem or the reign of Nero, the Mediterranean world suffered political upheaval, but the global biosphere remained completely intact.
The Mark of the Beast? The administrative control described in Revelation 13:16-17 requires a level of global infrastructure that didn’t exist in antiquity.
“Also, it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.”
While Nero did issue coins with his image, and Christians faced severe economic ostracization, there was never a total, airtight, worldwide ban where a person literally could not purchase a loaf of bread anywhere on Earth without a specific physical mark or allegiance stamp.
The two Witnesses? Revelation 11 describes two prophets who preach in Jerusalem for 1,260 days, striking the earth with plagues and shutting the skies so it cannot rain.
When they are finally killed, the text explicitly says that people from “the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations” will view their dead bodies for three and a half days, and the inhabitants of the earth will celebrate and send each other gifts Revelation 11:9-10) Then, the whole world watches as breath enters them, they stand up, and they ascend into heaven in a cloud Revelation 11:11-12.
In the 1st century, it was physically impossible for “all nations and tongues” to simultaneously look at two bodies lying in a street in Jerusalem. This specific detail strongly implies a world connected by global, real-time communication.
At the climax of the book, after the final judgment, God establishes the New Heaven and the New Earth:
" And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Revelation 21:4
Believers and non-believers alike still experience physical pain, grief, sickness, and death. The total, literal elimination of these realities has clearly not occurred. This is just some. I do not see how anyone can say Revelation is a history book of things that have already happened, just like the rest of the Bible. No argument, just trying to understand.
Peter
