Christ's Olivet Discourse: Signs of the End

Theology
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Then those doing such need to retract their condescending remarks to me in posts here.

An example…

Obviously, the plan with most of those remarks is an attack on my credibility because of me staying with the actual written Bible Scripture.

An example?

TCC doesn’t like the fact of me showing the Biblical evidence for a Post-trib return of our Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus was emphatic that He comes AFTER… the tribulation, AS WRITTEN in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which directly parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of Christ’s Church at His coming.

Is it thus MY fault that TCC chooses to believe men’s doctrines instead of what Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul taught directly in God’s written Word? Am I the bad guy for telling the Truth of those Bible Scriptures???

And why won’t TCC, et al, actually address those Bible Scriptures I quoted that clearly are for Christ’s Church?

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Actually, wolves have been fleecing sheep for 150 years with that message. And i really think that His patience is running out with those who so cravenly disdain His power, goodness, and calling.

Somehow, “ALL power in heaven and in earth” just isn’t quite enough power to domesticate feral nations. I like this brief essay, The Call to Victory, by R. J. Rushdoony:

During the Middle Ages, much of Spain was under Moslem rule. The Christian Spaniards under Arabic government sometimes had serious difficulties but their faith was governed by the knowledge of their calling to dominion. Their order of service in church was known as the Mozarabic Rite, a service which a few years back was used only in one chapel in the Cathedral at Toledo. A remarkable aspect of that service was the use in every service of the proclamation by the pastor of two verses, Psalm 2:7,8:

The Lord hath said unto me: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Desire of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance: and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Our Lord has these words in mind in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20), when He sends forth His disciples into all the world, to bring all men and nations under the dominion of and in a saving relationship to Himself.

We have been called in Christ to victory (1 John 5:4), and we dare not shirk that calling. The whole world must know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. His dominion must begin with us. We must be fully commanded by Him, in total obedience to Him, and in all things faithful to Him.

The world must be conquered for Christ. There is no power too great for Him, no evil He cannot conquer, nor any barrier too high for Him to scale.

We have not been called to enjoy ourselves but to serve Him. We live in a world moving from disaster to disaster, and we must not be indifferent to the pressing nature of our crisis. Our world has no hope apart from Christ. If we fail to fulfill Christ’s dominion mandate to us, He will judge us also.

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All well and good, but that’s still not the subject I’ve been talking about. The parable of a fig tree that Lord Jesus commanded that His followers learn also involves the prophecies given in Jeremiah 24 about the two baskets of figs, one basket of good figs for Judah, and the other basket of evil figs, put for the crept in unawares among Judah.

In that prophecy, God said He would bring Judah back to the holy land and never pluck them up again. He showed that evil basket of figs that went captive with the “house of Judah” to Babylon would also return with Judah. The evil basket is about the false Jews of the “synagogue of Satan” that hide among Judah, and were among the Pharisees and scribes that followed Jesus around trying to find somewhat against Him in order to kill Him.

Only since 1948 when the Jews of the “house of Judah” were made the nation of Israel again was that Jeremiah 24 prophecy fulfilled. Now if the Jews in the holy land are removed again, then that prophecy would still be in abeyance.

(By the way, I’ve been to Toledo, Spain. I didn’t visit the cathedral though, but instead the castle or fort where Spanairds held out during the 1937 civil war. The shops at Toledo had all these swords in barrels that you could buy real cheap. I had planned to buy one before I left, but never did.)

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I have addressed some of these. But when i did you thought it was me adding to the word of God by using the word of God. But lets take your current offer brother.

By the way I don’t mind you showing evidence of anything. I purposely sought out 15 hours of the best debate against the pretrib view because i wanted to understand the arguments better. And if they made more sense, I’d change my view. Honestly. So when you provide your view, I mind no evidence. To me you just come across opinionated. Having it all figured out. And I don’t honestly get the sense you are either aware of contrasting nuances or can afford in your own view to acknowledge their “potential” value. Yet then say I am hardened in my own view. I’ve never been hardened in my own view. I just have not seen skilled enough real biblical study to offset pretrib rapture. So I’m still open. You are the one not open to being wrong if you might. So does it really matter what I come back with? lol. But for the sake of playing along…

here goes…lets do one…again…

Matt 24:29-31.

What I shared with you was at least 5 to 20 old testament verses that use this concept of from one end of heaven to another. And in every case, it is dealing with earth focused concepts like the corners of earth (using “the heavens” to make that point).

On this one I don’t think you ever replied to me as I recall. But it is very clear that if the old testament uses from one end of heaven to the other to express events on earth not to highlight “going into heaven” and you want verse 31 to pretend that none of those old testament verses do that, there is no way you are not wrong. You see what you see and it is because i love men’s preaching i cant take my eyes off of pretrib. Then how do i know this argument that seems to keep you silent to address it, while remaining so faithful to your point of view as though nothing was said?

I’ve answered it before and i have answered it again here. Would you like me to pull up a bunch of verses again you won’t address? Or maybe it would be better if you look them up this time. Show you have done the homework? Go ahead? Please. Explain them away.

…

If it escapes why, I see Matt 24:31 as the fulfillment of the parable of the wheat and tares. This is Israel at the end of the age being gathered into the barns, while the reapers in Rev 14 gather those to be burned. You know, just like in Matt 13? Blessings.

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I guess this is your way of agreeing with my understanding then? That the 7th vial judges Israel the great city for ever and ever then, right?

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further reading for understanding some of the end times discussion

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Nope, I don’t agree with that.

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So the reason I am asking is because it it not clear to me what you believe about that great city judged in the 7th vail. What is that then?

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I agree with the second part. I don’t think practicing biblical kindness like the word talks about is evil.

But you are correct brother, there is a lot of super bad teaching today. To the extent i believe even the church that would see itself as proper is Laodicean even. Because it is that age I believe. Someone so sold on their views as inspired by God typically a dangerous person. You may not be dangerous, but to me its just vanity. And i wish we could have conversations instead of establishing our imperial royalty. Blessings.

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No I just see every man a liar. And we are all fallen. And we use what we think we understand better to lord it over others and judge them. Sorry but that is the flesh brother. Authoritarian control “issue” ridden peeps would paint this mosaic. Its the spirit of the age brother. It is the same things the Catholic church does. Nothing new under the sun there brother. But you don’t have to fall pray to your flesh like that. You don’t brother. You can challenge your own self as maybe one not so holy. It might shock, but it can heal too.

I don’t believe their is no accuracy to doctrines. I believe evangelicalism in ways are closer and in some ways fundamentalists and some ways too even the reformed. But in general it is a sea of “we are right and you are wrong.” You have great heritage in that. For you bear your forefathers heart well. I’m just saying that it is good to strive to consider where we might, in our fallen nature, still be wrong. While holding to what we know to be true about the word. It is immature to hold contempt for those who may see differently and be wrong and just stroke ourselves in glee…by contrast. Its sad. Blessing.s And i do mean “blessings.” Because i think yeah we all kind of sad. Amen.

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For many years I argued about (The rapture) taking place before the tribulation. Mainly because what I read In scripture did not correlate with what I was being taught when I was in the seminary. In fact, a lot of things that I was taught in the seminary drove me away from the Catholic Church. I almost felt like they were teaching a different gospel. I read and study the Word daily. I pray for discernment. And wish them to understand,exactly what was spoken to the writers. I read now the NASB 1995 version Which is said to be close to the Hebrew and Greek. I recently started going to a church.that teaches the way the Bible is written. It calls sin sin. It does not go along with trends. Even the Catholic Church is softening its position on things like homosexuality. And transgenderism, which the Bible states is clearly in abomination. I learned something new every day. It is very important to read the Old Testament. Many churches I have been to avoid Revelations. But I believe that is probably the most important book of the Bible. Christ said plainly. That those who endure to the end will be saved. I believe. Christians left here on earth will go through the tribulation. Many of us will be killed. But we will be martyrs for Christ. We will have a special place in heaven. Any thoughts?

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I was raised in a mainstream Protestant Church that held to men’s theory of Preterism, which is why they treated Revelation and the Old Testament Books as dead history, except they still believed Christ’s coming is still sometime in the future. Only when I disciplined myself in Bible study did I realize what they were following.

The later modern English Bible translations past the 1800’s I am wary of. They all contain a certain amount of Wescott and Hort’s independent 1881 Greek New Testament translation that is based on the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Siniaticus manuscripts. They presented their ‘new’ Greek translation to the revision committee in secret, and that’s what was used. Because of that, I stay with the KJV and the Textus Receptus which Wescott and Hort hated (per their personal letters to each other).

I complained about Nelson’s later New King James Version, because it also contains portions of Wescott and Hort’s Greek New Testament, as Nelson publishers admit in their preface. They basically tried to sneak in Codex Vaticanus and Siniaticus, Alexandrian Greek texts when the original KJV verse did not use those Greek texts. What got my attention about was when I had a Bible study at a brother’s house who was using the NKJV and I was using the 1611 KJV. He kept shrugging in anger when I would read from my KJV Bible. I asked why, and he said his NKJV does not read anything like those KJV passages I had read. That got my attention about the NKJV. So as far as I’m concerned, Nelson Publishers via Zondervan publishing were out to make some money for they hold the copyrights to the NKJV, when the original 1611 KJV is not copyrighted.

I do believe ‘some’ of us will be killed when delivered up to give the Testimony for Jesus during the coming “great tribulation”, but certainly not all of us. Otherwise there would be no “caught up” event of the saints still alive on earth on that day of Christ’s future coming. And Lord Jesus did warn us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, and that those who seek to preserve their life shall lose it, and those who lose it for His sake shall find it.

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I totally agree. I have read the King James version. The new King James Version. And currently I’m reading. The NASB. I’m also studying Hebrew and Greek. I’m trying to discern. Everything I can. I have ADHD. It has always been hard for me to read and comprehend. But the more I read and study the Bible. The more I retain. I constantly read the forum. I gained so much insight from this. I enjoy your insight. I went to a Catholic seminary. He drove me away from the Catholic Church. I believe the Catholic Church is teaching a different gospel, they place burdens on people. They call the Pope Heavenly Father. They say priests can absolve you from your sins. They pray to saints. I call it idolatry. They claimed Mary was always a virgin and she ascended into heaven. There is no biblical foundation for any of these things. I don’t know the mind of God. He may welcome Catholics into heaven. It is not for me to say. I just don’t think that their religion is for me. It has too many pagan roots I attend a Bible centered church. They are not afraid to talk about sin or about repentance. I enjoy studying the Bible with these people. I get a lot of insight. I read the Word daily. I will continue to read different versions, as I complete the one I am on now. I firmly believe that. People should read the Old Testament. Christ is contained in almost every book. Keep sharing what you share. It helps me tremendously. God bless you.

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The minute you say we need more than the Blood of the Lamb shed for our sins to “merit” eternal life, you’re preaching a different gospel.

Bear in mind that all of the Bible was written for us, but very little was written directly to us. (see John 20:19)

Jesus told the “this generation” that He was speaking to that the Great Tribulation would be a local event, one they could escape on foot – if they acted instantly upon the opportunity when it arose. Well, the Roman general besieging Jerusalem opened up a temporary humanitarian corridor – and several historians assert that no Christians were “left behind” for the gruesome events that followed.

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Many pastors do avoid preaching through Revelation because of its dense apocalyptic imagery, complex symbolism, and the intense disagreement over how to interpret it (Preterist, Historicist, Futurist, or Idealist).

Revelation is unique because it explicitly promises a blessing to those who read and hear it (Revelation 1:3). However, calling it the most important book steps outside standard biblical theology, which generally places the Gospels at the center, as they record the direct life, death, and resurrection of Jesus upon which all Christian faith rests.

Jesus states in Matthew 24:13, “But the one who endures to the end will be saved,” directly in the context of global trial, persecution, and false prophets. Revelation explicitly describes believers facing the Beast: “It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them” Revelation 13:7.

Throughout the New Testament, persecution is presented as normal for believers (John 16:33, 2 Timothy 3:12). Historically, the early Church expected to endure trials before Christ’s return.

Now I understand, and will admit, that at one time I agreed that God has not destined His believers for wrath 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and pointed to passages like Revelation 3:10, “I will also keep you from the hour of trial…” to argue the Church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins.

I do agree that martyrs hold a distinct place of honor, which is well-supported by both Scripture and church history.

Revelation 6:9–11: John sees the souls of martyrs under the altar in heaven, given white robes and told to rest until the full number of their fellow servants are killed. Revelation 20:4: Those who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and did not worship the beast are highlighted as reigning with Christ for a thousand years.

James 1:12 and Revelation 2:10 speak of the “crown of life” promised to those who remain faithful unto death under trial. From the early church fathers (like Polycarp and Ignatius) onward, martyrdom was held in deep reverence as the highest witness (martyria) a Christian could give.

Truthfully, it does not matter if you believe in Pre-, Mid-, or Post-trip. Or if you believe in eternal suffering or annihilation, the answer is ALWAYS Jesus. He can and will set you free. Any suffering as a result of our faith in Him is not worthy to be compared to that which awaits us.

"But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:9-10

Be blessed.

Peter

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Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Don’t pay attention to what some claim about Christ’s Book of Revelation, as it follows right in line with the Old Testament prophets, and especially the Book of Genesis.

Revelation is the complement of Genesis. Genesis 1 & 2 corresponds to Revelation 21 & 22. Though Revelation is in Greek, its thoughts and idioms is the character of Hebrew.

In Revelation there are no fewer than 285 quotes or references back to the Old Testament.

God’s Paradise and the Tree of Life are shown lost to man in Genesis, but returned in Revelation. There’s so many unmistakable parallels that it simply shows foolishness by those who refuse to teach it to their congregations.

What today’s preachers are taught to do instead is to keep their congregations on the ‘milk’ of God’s Word, and not the “strong meat”. That way preachers that have not studied their Old Testament histories and prophecy won’t have to bother learning it just in order to teach Christ’s Revelation. That’s basically telling preachers to muzzle the ox…

1 Tim 5:17-18
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
KJV

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Children of God, here is the truth according to God. @DavyP is right that Revelation mirrors Genesis. The themes of Paradise lost, the Tree of Life, the serpent, and the curse in Genesis are resolved and restored in Revelation 21–22. Revelation is saturated with Old Testament imagery, language, and allusions (Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Genesis). Understanding the OT is essential to understanding Revelation.

Where DavyP’s argument falls off track is this. He is misapplying 1 Timothy 5:17–18 (“Muzzling the Ox”): What the text actually means: Paul quotes Deuteronomy 25:4 (“Do not muzzle an ox…”) specifically regarding financial support and honor for ministers who labor in preaching and teaching.

He turns this passage into an accusation about pastors avoiding Revelation or keeping congregations on “milk.” Using a verse about minister compensation to attack pastors for their sermon topics misinterprets Paul’s instruction.

DavyP claims pastors keep congregations on “milk” simply to avoid studying the Old Testament or Revelation. While some churches may neglect deep biblical exposition, many pastors preach through the Old Testament and Revelation regularly. Furthermore, focusing on core Gospel truths is not laziness. Paul explicitly prioritized “Christ and Him crucified” as foundational (1 Corinthians 2:2).

In Hebrews 5:11–14, “strong meat” (solid food) is defined as spiritual maturity, discernment between good and evil, and living out righteousness. Not merely decoding prophecy or mastering apocalyptic charts.

Don’t pay attention to what DaveyP has falsely claimed here.

Be blessed, be a blessing.

Peter