Church posture during prayer

General Faith
21

Christ here meant that when His disciples as usual when as in tradition they stand and pray with fellow Jews in the Temple, synagogues and streets corners.

(For example as Paul himself said, that, when he’s with the Jews, he becomes a Jew, just to please and win them over to Christ, and likewise with the Gentiles. That’s why after the day pf Pentecost the Apostles and church still met in the Temple of the Jews. But the prayers they pray in the Temple now is according to the ‘instructions’ of Christ, even when they had to ‘stand’ with fellow Jews during prayers)

22

Oh, my friend, you have misread the passage. Turn to Matthew 6

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. … “

This is what Jesus is talking about.

5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.”

Standing where and for the purpose of being seen and having people think you are “Holy”. Next verse.

6 “But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

His message to us is not to forbid standing and praying. He did. He also knelt and prostrated. Then He continues and teaches us HOW to pray.

7 "And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. … “

Then He gives us the “Our Father “ prayer example. A little bit on He repeats His main point.

16 "And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

It was not a directive forbidding standing during prayer; rather, it forbade praying or doing works in the Lord’s name only for the glorification of people.

Peter

23

Firstly, Jesus gives us a commandment, ‘thou shall not’ be as the hypocrites are, for they love to pray ‘standing’ in the synagogues …

It’s an enclosure like our church buildings and only members of the same faith gather there, but Jesus includes likewise not to be seen by others?.

The other one is individually one’s personal prayer with GOD and not as in a gathering.as when the ‘body of Christ’ prays.

Therefore when it’s a commandment forbidding the church not to be as hypocrites are and does at the same time, there’s no compromise period

Same like Adam and Eve, they may eat all the fruit in the garden except one commandment was given that, ‘thou shall not’ eat the fruit of one tree.

Was there any compromise that they ‘misheard’ or ‘did not know’, and did not get punished?

Seems like you misread like an adult of this world, and it’s time for you to get back like a child again to learn about the Kingdom of GOD.

To compromise the commandments of Jesus Christ apparently leads to ‘lawlessness’, as to accumulating trouble for oneself on judgement day..

24

Beloved, you ask concerning posture in prayer, as though the matter were first of the body. Yet does the Lord begin not with the body, but with the heart?

When the disciples asked to be taught, the Lord did not say, “Stand thus,” or “kneel thus,” but he said, “When you pray, say: Our Father.” In this, He directs not the limbs, but the soul. For prayer is not first an act of the body, but the turning of the whole man unto God.

As the apostle Paul teaches, we draw near not in presumption, but in dependence. We cry “Father,” not because we stand upright in ourselves, but because we have been brought near by grace. Therefore the first posture is humility. If the heart is not bowed, the knee is of no account. This is the why the first of the beatitudes start with blessed are the poor in spirit for the Kingdom of heaven will be theirs.

Consider also how the Lord warns against those who pray to be seen. Here he strikes at the corruption of outward posture when it is severed from inward truth. For one may stand, yet be far from God, speak many words, yet not be heard. True prayer is not measured by form, but by sincerity and faith.

And yet, the body is not without its place. For man is not a spirit alone, but body and soul. Thus when the Lord in his agony fell upon his face, and when he knelt in prayer, he showed that the body may rightly express what the heart knows. Kneeling, bowing, falling low, these are fitting signs of reverence. But they are signs, not substance.

Therefore let it be said plainly.

The posture the Lord requires is a heart that is humbled before the holiness of God, submitted to his will, dependent upon His provision, and repentant before his mercy. This is the posture that cannot be feigned, for it is wrought by the Spirit of God within.

For no man prays rightly unless he is first taught by the Spirit. And the Spirit does not produce pride, but lowliness. He does not produce display, but sincerity. He does not lead a man to trust in his form, but to cast himself wholly upon God.

So then, whether you stand or kneel, whether you lift your hands or bow your head, let this be the matter of concern.

Is your heart laid low before God? Is your will yielded to Him? Do you come as one in need of mercy?

For if these are absent, no posture will avail you. But if these are present, even the simplest cry is received.

Is this not what the Lord has taught?

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25

This is what the Lord taught among others in the Gospel with commandments in discipleship, ‘thou shall not’.

Matthew 15:
6. …, Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition.

  1. But in vain they do worship ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Apparently history repeats itself, when GOD is away the false come out to play and HIS people deceived.

HIS people become complacent to HIS Word and develop ‘itching ears’ desiring to hear the false preachers promising peace and prosperity.

But on the other hand, the true preach ‘lawlessness’ of HIS people against HIS Word left behind and they need to repent or eternal separation, their heart hardens.

Since complacent to HIS Word, as a result they end up persecuting repeatedly the true preacher.

And continue embracing false preachers as usual for their ‘itching ears’, and remain in ‘lawlessness’.

Again, they’ve made the commandment of GOD of none effect by the tradition of their fathers.

26

You are completely missing what Jesus is saying here.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

Nowhere does He add “likewise.” Nowhere does He add “and.” It is all one thought. One command. "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others.” The whole beginning of Matthew 6 is about this. “Being seen by others.”

Then Jesus told us how we should pray. Notice, He did not say “Pray lying prostrate,” Jesus said “But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret,” so that you are NOT seen by others. That is the message. Likewise with giving gifts and tithes, fasting, ETC. We should not let others know what we are doing, because it is not about us. It is not about getting the praise and glory from men; it is about a personal, private relationship between you and your Abba Father. There is no verse in the Bible where Jesus forbids standing while praying or mandates that prostration is the only acceptable posture.

It sounds like you might be misinterpreting a specific warning Jesus gave about motives, rather than mechanics. Some other examples of Jesus and people standing in prayer? Mark 11:25: Jesus says, “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them…” He doesn’t say “don’t stand”; he says “when you stand,” make sure your heart is right.

The Parable of the Tax Collector (Luke 18:13): Jesus tells a story about a tax collector who stood at a distance, wouldn’t even look up to heaven, and prayed for mercy. Jesus said this man, who was standing, went home justified before God, while the prideful Pharisee did not.

Jesus is teaching about our hearts. Not to be proud, boastful, or like the hypocrites.

Peter

27

Apparently, even during Jesus’ ministry to the Jews first, the Jews usually ‘stand’ and pray, and the tradition remain with the unsaved Jews in Israel.

Jesus first plainly referred to that which Jews habitually do when they pray, but the important matter He wanted to point out is something else pertaining to the New Covenant.

And moreover Jesus is yet to fulfill the Law and Prophets, therefore meanwhile the Law, Prophets and tradition of the Jews remain the same.

The separation from carnal flaw cum tradition of the Old to the full form of spiritual excellence by the New Covenant came into effect after the day of Pentecost.

When the Holy Ghost came upon them, and yet when they were with the unsaved Jews, just to win them over to Christ, they remain compliance by the Law and tradition.

Nevertheless when they gather as the ‘body of Christ’, in spirit and truth by the New Covenant they remain compliance to Christ’s teaching.

As a result when they pray in their indoor meeting places or every street corners, they’ll not ‘stand’ as the unsaved hypocrites love to.

Since Jesus gave them a commandment and is ‘specific’, forbidding them not to be as hypocrites are.

(Same as the 10 commandments and specifics in the Old Testament)

Specifically when they pray to GOD, they love to ‘stand’ and pray indoors and outdoors, in order to be ‘seen’ by others.

Therefore when the church pick up after them and reason it’s not a posture matter but rather heart, are unto workers of iniquity or lawlessness.

.

28

Yes. Remember, Jesus said there was a time coming, and it is here now, that this would happen.

" Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." John 4:21

Jesus was never against someone standing, sitting, lying down, eyes closed, and hands raised, when you pray. His whole point was to keep it private. Just between you and your God. Not to show off, or pretend to be Holy for the praise of man.

I’m not sure where this whole concept of Jesus forbading standing in prayer came from. The whole of Chapter 6 of Matthew is all about the heart. Being humble. Being private. The formula for how to pray.

But it was not only about prayer. It was about giving, fasting, and praying. His concern was not posture, but heart. Reason. What is causing you to do such things? Love of God, or pride.
Peter

29

That’s your own interpretation and you may run with it, unable to distinguish between the commandment and the saying of Jesus.

You’re matching them together and concluding them as to the heart matter and i disagree.

No thank you anyway

30

Here I thought we agreed. Did you not say this?

That is what I’m saying. Jesus is more concerned about our Hearts than he is the position of our bodies when we pray.
Peter

31

Jesus is equally concerned firstly by His commandment ‘Thou shall not’, compared to His sayings as well, the standing up ‘posture’ to begin with.

Likewise the 10 commandments and the sayings of His based on the commandments, are as the Law of Moses in the Old Testament.

That’s why in some churches, when the believers gather as the ‘one body of Christ’, during prayers, they lock their doors and generally either ones sit or kneel.

Then once prayers are over the doors are opened to welcome others for the following service.

Besides the individual prayers believers do in their home and closed doors as well.

And ‘outdoor’ ministry, first of all prayers are done indoors, and then they’ll go out witnessing for the Kingdom of GOD.

For prayers done outdoor for unbelievers, are while sitting down or some prefer to kneel, honoring Jesus’ commandments and sayings.

To conclude, if you don’t see what i see by the spirit of truth, no point going back and forth in vain, just done my duty.

May GOD bless you all in Jesus name

32

Correct. To conclude, if you don’t see what I see by the spirit of truth, no point going back and forth in vain, just done my duty in correcting you.

May the comfort of the Holy Spirit and the peace of our Lord Jesus be with you all. May God bless and be with you always.
Peter

33

By the way, your correction didn’t impact me in any way but rather saddens me you’re spiritually ‘shortsighted’.

Since i know you by your fruit, that you would want to say the same thing back to me, it’s okay go for it.

34

Sadly, I understand. You talk about fruit. OK. You misread scripture. Out of love, I correct you. I prove it using the scripture. You refuse the correction and then start to personally attack me. What fruit are you producing, my friend? Seems a little bitter.
Peter

35

Just an obvious question to me, perhaps to no one else here though, but when Jesus was on the cross, what was his posture then? Because I would hate to think that because he didn’t follow any example there that his prayers at that time didn’t matter or was inalidated in some way.

:thinking:

36

Bitter?

Am from the other side of the globe, and our way of communicating should vary.
English is our second language but we do know to a certain extend and reasonably understandable.

There’s only disagreement and fruit wise according to seek ye first the Kingdom of GOD and HIS righteousness, we ‘differ’.

37

Sadly too, i disagree with your reasoning or even your correction, so no need to respond if you likewise feel the same.

To me, i perceive Jesus in His lifetime did witness what the hypocrite Sanhedrin and people of Israel do during prayer, even knowing their ‘hearts’.

So came to His ‘new creation’ including us, He disciple His disciple then even to generally say about them hypocrites.

Matthew 23:

  1. The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
  2. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe(by the law), that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Among many of their works: besides what they say and do not: Matthew 6:5, is one of them Jesus disciple His ‘new creation’ commanding them ‘do not’.

Works like, they love to pray ‘standing’ in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.

Being a ‘new creation’ myself and obeying Christ’s commandment, i pray ‘sitting’ in the churches and in the corners of the streets having ‘seats’.

Therefore also not to draw attention in order to be seen by others, furthermore pray ‘quietly’ or ‘softly’ where those who’re with me able to hear.

But witnessing the fruit of you and your followers, claim otherwise that Jesus isn’t concerned about the ‘posture’ when His ‘new creation’ pray.

But rather answering for Jesus, that He’s all about concerned and teaches about the condition of the heart of His ‘new creation’.

That’s why i had to minister and witness concluding that kind of respond are as to workers of lawlessness and iniquity.

Since my words are not welcomed but rather opposed and corrected, apparently we differ in spirit and truth.

The end.

38

I would suppose you are correct. We should just agree to disagree. I still believe that it is about one’s heart and not so long drawn out, specific position while praying. I showed you countless positions in which Jesus Himself prayed. How His disciples prayed, and explained things like this.

“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” Matthew 6:6

Is all about the heart. As a matter of fact, you just said;

Exactly. Do you sit in the Prayer closet? If someone is unable to lie face down, does God not hear them? If they are alone and pray standing, does God not hear them?

We read this in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18

“Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Did Jesus give us the “Our Father Prayer” in Matthew 6? Of course. But what was He telling us? He was teaching us how to pray by showing us the formula. He never intended for us to simply repeat it, hoping that God would hear us and do whatever we asked. In fact, right before He gave us this example, He said this.

“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

He goes on to say, not pray this prayer, but

“After this manner, therefore pray ye.”

Some people think about prayer as holier than anything, a grand procedure that one must be skilled in, with the knowledge of how to do it. Well, no. All we need to do is follow Jesus’ formula. God already knows what you are going to say before you say it.

God is your Father. He is there when you wake up. He is there when you eat breakfast or don’t. Shower and get ready? He is with you. Go out the door? He is with you. Work, school, or play? He is with you. It is not a part-time, only in Church on Sunday concept or idea, or thing. He is with us always. In all things. During all things. He is there. He is God. Do not ever forget this.

If you have never done this, try it. Do not think about prayer as holier than anything, a grand procedure that one must be skilled in, with the knowledge of how to do it. It is not this way. It is simply a conversation. Talk to God. Get up and say your 5-minute obligatory prayer in the morning. How about on your way to work? At work? How about something you see that you would instantly want to share with someone? Share with Him. “God? Did you see that?” Or “Father, can I please get through this meeting today?” Or something like “God, thank you so much for this coffee. It is really good.” Anything and everything is worthy to share with God, and to also help you remember, HE is always with you.
Peter

39

Don’t we ‘new creation’ gather as church in buildings and pray, like the Jews gather in the building called synagogues and pray?

Don’t we gather as church in the corners of the streets and pray, like the Jews, for one obviously near the ‘weiling wall’?

In these two places Jesus is giving us a commandment, ‘thou shall not’ be as the hypocrites are.

For hypocrites love to pray ‘standing’ in these indicated ‘places’, besides drawing attention the following.

So, if you were say it’s okay to pray ‘standing’ in these two indicated places, we as the church too gather like hypocrites gather in theirs.

What’s the difference between you and the hypocrites?

Like the saying goes, ‘It takes one to know one.’

No need to deviate basically from the commandment of Jesus ‘forbidding’, to the sayings of Jesus how wisely you should do it.

Can you agree?

40

Just trying to understand. So are you saying that we can stand anywhere else, and Jesus prohibited standing in church because that may be done with other motives? I guess I could see that point of view. However, we still have the whole statement by Jesus.

" And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward."

“They love to stand and pray.” WHY? What is the reason Jesus tells us this? “that they may be seen by others.”

How do you remember this? Do not stand in prayer ever? No.

“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and” ??? prostrate? sit? Kneel? No. He said pray. Pray in private. There is NOTHING about posture. It is all about the heart. All about our motives. This is what Jesus is concerned with.

Somewhere else, I believe I read where you said Paul added, making it two different points; however, there is no break. No separation. It is all one thought and one point. Don’t stand to be seen. Not merely “Don’t Stand Period.”
Peter

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