A Note on typology and allegory. It was a way of adding to Scripture popular in the early centuries. Remember, they did not have cell phones and TVs. Imaginations went a little overboard.
Take the example of Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan. The man going down from Jerusalem (aka paradise) was Adam on the way to Jericho (the world). The Priest and Levite were the Law and the prophets. The Samaritan was Christ. The wounds were the man’s sins. The robbers evil powers. The donkey is Christ’s body. The Inn is the Chuch. The Inn Keeper the head of the Church and the two coins are the Father and the Son. The promise to return is the Second Coming.
A very long tale that obscures Jesus’ lesson on loving our neighbor and who is our neighbor.
I think you are on the right track Michael. I’ve only skimmed your notes on Isaiah 14 (and Ezekiel 28) but as in the example you offer on the parable of the good Samaritan, it is the nature of these stories to be about two things, and not just one. That is, with respect to parables in particular-- there is a pairing of meanings- one evident and apparent in the simple telling, and another, much more broadly understood through a spiritual lens.
So while Isaiah 14 is very clearly referencing the King of Babylon and Ezekiel 28, the prince of Tyre— there is also clear pointing to something else.
The king of Tyre did not “fall from the sky” for example, nor was the prince of Tyre present in the garden of Eden, so it’s abundantly clear that the writer is employing some sort of typology, metaphor, allegory, association.
I don’t think you can make a blanket statement like “Isaiah 14 is not about Satan.” These pronouncements were to be said to the king of Babylon-- and to him say:
“Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!
The whole section from ch 13-14 is given as an “oracle” about Babylon— given to Isaiah in dream, so these pronouncements above might not have been directed toward any specific king of Babylon at all, instead ‘about’ Babylon in a general sense, the way a modern day prophet might say-- 'Woe America! You will be thrown down. President of America- you will have your head shaved in shame! blah blah blah.
None of this gets us any closer to the question about the origin of evil.
Evil as a choice is a good way of recognizing the principle of free will given to man and angels alike. Or like @Farid has said through his story telling, evil might be simply the opposite or absence of good. Failing to choose the good delivers evil as a consequence. It doesn’t have to be created at all-- it just is. Having breath in your lungs is a natural state, but so is exhaling and emptying them before your next. Air is life/good no air is death/evil. You were doing both without even realizing it until you read this.
It might be an over-arching principle to say that God must have created evil, but this only in the same way that you might say through the analogy, that God created breathing and breathing or not breathing is a choice.
Along the lines of what @MichaelSnow has shared, there is a duality in play where two things exist, though different- or even opposites, but these two sides essentially co-exist. Both at the same time, polarity which we might think of in terms of good and evil, or good and the absence of good…
The principle is even more broadly understood in other ways-- the holy (set apart) and the profane (common). The spirit and the flesh, heaven and earth, the supernatural and the natural and so forth.
Throughout scripture, evil is equated to sin which is equated to the flesh-- humanity… or with respect to those words of Christ-- the cup. What is inside the cup (body) is the spirit-- breathed into us and it’s in spirit that we must be made clean.
I’m not tracking any requirement for making sacrifices as a condition for forgiveness. “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
I found the conversation funny, because I was waiting my turn for a haircut at that exact moment. My hair is the very embodiment of some of those grey areas.
It matters a lot whether it is true or not. this is the problem with so many in Christianity. The truth doesn’t matter if it backs up their point of view.
“He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.” - Jesus
"There is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” Isaiah 45:6–7
Through him all things were made without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:3
Yes, God created evil.
Who created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good an Evil?
Yes, if we believe that God is above all and creator of all, then He is ultimately responsible for all-- the good, the bad and the ugly. For how can we praise him for everything beautiful if we don’t acknowledge that the same God created the things that are not beautiful, not good, not right… right?
Isaiah 45 is full of proud boasting. Let me ask you-- does the elohim in Isaiah 45 (read the whole thing) sound at all like ‘the Father’ God that Jesus references?
You are wrong, my friend. God created everything, and He created it all perfectly. What you are saying—about ugliness and all that—is a result of human actions: ecology, nutrition, drugs, mixed marriages, etc. To assert what you are asserting is incorrect. One must know and provide facts.
Farid, maybe lost in translation, but that is the point I was making/question I was asking.
It’s a misrepresentation to suggest that God created (as if by design) things that are abhorrent or evil. Even Satan himself had a perfect beginning. Some things are not creations, but consequences.
To reason this way, one must know for sure. For example, have you thought about what is around the Sun? Have you considered why our planet is positioned just right for us humans—not too hot and not too cold? Or, for instance, why have the larvae of wasps never seen their mother? Here’s why: the wasp finds a praying mantis and stings it in such a way that it doesn’t die but becomes paralyzed. Then, she lays her larvae on it and dies, while the larvae hatch and consume it, repeating everything just like their mother. And the little hummingbird that crosses the ocean, and flies—these are also necessary, as they are nature’s sanitizers, consuming carrion and cleaning the environment. And we, humans, when someone sees something terrifying or inexplicable, what do they say? They say, “My friend, oh my God! Look closely and clearly, and you will see how perfectly everything is arranged, without flaw, because all of this was created by God, and this is His Glory. For this, we must be thankful, my friend. If we say that this is a monstrosity and that it is wrong, it tarnishes our reputation. There are moments when human actions cause changes in nature: take, for example, the atomic bomb or factories that pollute the planet, deforestation, shale oil extraction, and much more. And then we sit and say that this is a monstrosity, that this is evil. For a native on an island who has never seen lighters or smartphones, you would be a god to them. One simply needs to know the basics, and then some things will not seem miraculous to you.
Your point? Job is a book of questions, and your point is that we can’t question anything that happens? wowza.
The point of Job is the misdirection and mistake of assigning blame to God, when all God did was sit back and let Satan do his worst.
Your two-edged argument seems to insist that it’s all very simple on one side, and at once-- too difficult for our teeny tiny brains to comprehend on the other… to put it bluntly, your sword seems to lack a point altogether.
“Job” is an archetype of all men… blameless before God, like Adam, like Eve… and Satan comes accusing, deceiving, destroying. Don’t blame God-- He didn’t create evil… He gave men and angels alike the ability to do that on our own.
Yes. 100 percent.
He is the same God and He is worthy to be praised and thanked in all things. The reply I posted was in no way to find any inconsistency with the Most High. Only to point out that His Word is truth. He created all things.
As a mother and father having their first child, they want the best of all things for it. As the child grows they will eventually disobey their parents. We all do. As loving parents, they would correct and or punish the child out of love. Yet the parents had to know what evil was or what was bad for their child before the child was even born.
So is God with us but on a much more higher level of love. We are created in His image and are beings of free will to choose between good and evil. There is no evil in Him. Yet, He did create evil. His Word says He created it. Evil is the very definition of what sin is. Sin is evil and draws its power from the Law of God when it is disobeyed.
Forgive me, I didn’t mean to challenge your point without context. I must have been rushing out somewhere. I do very much agree with you regarding the sovereignty of God in all things. I just happen to believe that there is much more to the story that we need to consider.
I bring this up for discussion, not to diminish your point, but to illuminate it. The verse you quote in Isaiah says “I make peace and create evil” and my question invites a rabbit hole conversation that few would want to fall into about “who” the speaker making these boasts is. I ask-- does it sound like the Father, Jesus describes? That’s number one.
Secondly-- the word used here for evil (ra) means “bad” or more exactly “calamity” and it’s offered as the opposite of peace (shalom). The concept is that God brings about peace and also disturbs the peace, presumably always for a purpose assuming the speaker is the ‘our Father’ Jesus taught us, who loves us as that Father and always guides and protects.
But in Isaiah- it speaks more broadly of elohim (which is a plurality of gods) and later in that same 45th chapter we see the speaker as one who doesn’t always have good in mind. Clearly the speaker in Isaiah 45 is making references to being there ‘in the beginning’ as one who is spoken of in Genesis 1.
I made the earth; I created the people who live on it. It was me—my hands stretched out the sky. I give orders to all the heavenly lights.
Clear pointing. So let’s go look at that section of scripture. It’s fascinating when you consider the Hebrew, which states “In the beginning” (of this story)–elohim created the heavens and the earth.
To understand the story-- you really have to consider this elohim concept that the translators ignored in favor of the very generic “God” used over and over, when elohim is the original and correct usage.
Before reading the Scriptures, one must pray to God for the Holy Spirit through the Lord Jesus Christ in order to understand the Scriptures! Furthermore, when we read, there are symbols next to the words (*, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., and letters) — these indicate parallel verses or explanations. One should not take a verse literally; it is important to read the full context. Remember that translations vary: in Hebrew, for example, it is quite different, and there is also Aramaic — everything is different there as well. Therefore, anything written or spoken should be checked a hundred times.
-so did you go get a haircut?
