Did Satan Create Evil?

Theology
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A Note on typology and allegory. It was a way of adding to Scripture popular in the early centuries. Remember, they did not have cell phones and TVs. Imaginations went a little overboard.

Take the example of Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan. The man going down from Jerusalem (aka paradise) was Adam on the way to Jericho (the world). The Priest and Levite were the Law and the prophets. The Samaritan was Christ. The wounds were the man’s sins. The robbers evil powers. The donkey is Christ’s body. The Inn is the Chuch. The Inn Keeper the head of the Church and the two coins are the Father and the Son. The promise to return is the Second Coming.

A very long tale that obscures Jesus’ lesson on loving our neighbor and who is our neighbor.

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Pure speculation…and I could be wrong about any of this…

Satan is called the destroyer… Destroyers tend to focus on destroying so its hard to imagine him taking the time to make something…i mean, it is literally in the “Job” description…

…though the early concept of evil was different from our own. To do evil was to destroy. As in the troubles that destroyed Jobs family and property.
Storms and plagues can destroy too, but that does not make them inherently evil as in sinful/ unlawful/ against God. God sent the flood that destroyed the world in Noah’s times, the plagues upon Egypt in Moses’ times, God piqued Satan’s interest in Job and set the rules for what transpired. Not to mention sent an evil spirit to trouble King Saul if I remember correctly.

In the old testament, God defines sinful/lawlessness evil as a choice we constantly make now. Your past record, and your family’s record does not change the fact that you have done a good action or evil action now, at this moment.

Destruction is a part of God’s natural creation and must exist in a world that allows life to both be born and eventually die. Life matures, ripens, and decays. So by this definition of evil, as a destructive principle, I would say God created evil. Even when humans or life arent involved, things get destroyed all the time on earth and out in space with stars going nova and rocks slamming into things. We come into existence like a wave washing ashore from the ocean and return back to the vastness of potential from which we came.

However the idea of evil evolved. The modern ideas of good and evil were influenced by the Zoroastrian religion of long ago which influenced both Judaism (when they went into captivity) and later Christianity.

And this idea is of two oppoaing forces, some representing only good and others only evil. The story of the angels turning against God may originate from here. The *gnostic idea of the evil creator god of the world and an outer good god also originates from this

No middle. Sons of light versus sons of darkness. And much of what we say Christians believe about God lines up with this way of either or thinking, and of a creation at war, fractured, void of forgiveness love and wholeness. Is it any wonder that the world would mirror this belief now, where we demonize people who hold different views from our own?

Ideas, like good and evil, evolve over time. Like how the image of the devil (goat face, goat legs etc, no where in the Bible) was based on a pagan god and came into existence.in a time when the church began attacking and murdering pagans and witches way back when instead of trying to convert them or share an acurate representation of Christ.

Becauae ideas change over time it is important to have an anchor that connects us to Truth. Remember Christ gave us the perfect way to know what is of God… Love God with all your heart, mind, will, soul… And love your neighbor as you love yourself. According to Christ, Everything actually given to us from God leads us back to these two commandments. *

It is the sword that cuts lies from truth, I believe. Man has a way of corrupting what he touches for selfish gain, no matter who it hurts. And this includes corrupting the rules we are told to live by. A man says God said do this and don’t do that, and if he holds authority we are told not to question him… Like a cult leader…which is why God commands not to take His name in vain… We are told it has to do with profanity, so as not to question what man says. But we should absolutely question even the highest authorities when they do not line up with God. To go against God is true lawlessness, chaos with no boundaries. Never respecting another person’s personal space or personal choice. God does not rape and take, or do anything to diminish your light.

Matthew 11:17-19 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)“'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn. ’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon. ’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him!

This scripture is like all the rules of man that we are told we must obey to be right with God. Political correctness or Merry Christmas- good/ Happy Holidays= antiJesus… Puppet strings God never gave us. It also reveals how man sways from one judgement to the next…regardless of the Spirit dwelling within…but Christ’s love is steady.

And this evolution of ideas may be why Jesus spent so much time correcting priests about their own faith… We lose our way over time. By adding more and more expectations as the times change- causing animosity on Earth to grow. Love would never cauae the world we live in today. If only the disciples of Christ would stop falling asleep.

As for Satan’s kingdom, I would say it is filled with obstacles, and instruments of decay and unfruitfulness- Unforgiveness, fear, shame, guilt, pride, envy, frustration, disappointment, greed, doubt, hate, addiction, lies and anything that prevents peace from being reached or life from blossoming, or a soul from being truly free. Chains and deceptions that keep a person bound. At least that is what it seems like in life when I see people lost in the worst of it.

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I think you are on the right track Michael. I’ve only skimmed your notes on Isaiah 14 (and Ezekiel 28) but as in the example you offer on the parable of the good Samaritan, it is the nature of these stories to be about two things, and not just one. That is, with respect to parables in particular-- there is a pairing of meanings- one evident and apparent in the simple telling, and another, much more broadly understood through a spiritual lens.

So while Isaiah 14 is very clearly referencing the King of Babylon and Ezekiel 28, the prince of Tyre— there is also clear pointing to something else.

The king of Tyre did not “fall from the sky” for example, nor was the prince of Tyre present in the garden of Eden, so it’s abundantly clear that the writer is employing some sort of typology, metaphor, allegory, association.

I don’t think you can make a blanket statement like “Isaiah 14 is not about Satan.” These pronouncements were to be said to the king of Babylon-- and to him say:

“Look how you have fallen from the sky,
O shining one, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations!

The whole section from ch 13-14 is given as an “oracle” about Babylon— given to Isaiah in dream, so these pronouncements above might not have been directed toward any specific king of Babylon at all, instead ‘about’ Babylon in a general sense, the way a modern day prophet might say-- 'Woe America! You will be thrown down. President of America- you will have your head shaved in shame! blah blah blah.

None of this gets us any closer to the question about the origin of evil.

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Evil as a choice is a good way of recognizing the principle of free will given to man and angels alike. Or like @Farid has said through his story telling, evil might be simply the opposite or absence of good. Failing to choose the good delivers evil as a consequence. It doesn’t have to be created at all-- it just is. Having breath in your lungs is a natural state, but so is exhaling and emptying them before your next. Air is life/good no air is death/evil. You were doing both without even realizing it until you read this.

It might be an over-arching principle to say that God must have created evil, but this only in the same way that you might say through the analogy, that God created breathing and breathing or not breathing is a choice.

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I think the biggest problem with evil is that we try so hard to distance ourselves from it… That we fail to see it. All to meet some far off idea of perfection that we cannot achieve without God…

We don’t magically maintain goodness because we claim or praise Jesus or do all the churchy things we think makes us right.

Christ said we had to clean the inside of the cup.

The appearance of clean does not make us clean. We must inspect our hearts, question our motives, align ourselves with the Holy Spirit. Allow That Spirit to flow through us, move us, guide us, instruct us.

This is a loving tender act, to clean that cup. It is where we admit grievances, forgive others, heal traumas, and deal with every destructive root one at a time. Every day. And we do it with God’s grace.

We are made right with God because of God’s forgiveness. It is not just about the sacrifce of Christ on the cross alone. Murder cannot save you. Especially the murder of God’s only begotten Son. But it is that through this sacrifce, of God, that we are covered with the protection of God’s grace like the blood on the doors of the Isrealite households during the plaugues in Egypt when the first born died… But more than that.

The Sacrifice represents Forgivensss. It is through this movement of forgiveness that Christ immulates the Father’s love, immulated for us in all he did, like when he taught us to turn the other cheek and allow that cheek to also be struck. It is about this allowance, or acceptance, or grace or room to grow that we must give others, for their good, as Christ and the Father does for us daily becauae all fall short.

And what we sacrifce for God in return for His forgiveness are the grievances we hold against others. In this way the world is made perfect before it is. Grace and forgiveness saves the world. Because God so LOVED the world.

But when we don’t forgive ourselves, heal and deal with ourselves and all that inner darkneas stagnant inside, we become blind to it. We see it in others, we point the finger and talk about their sins. But we can’t see where we fail. It’s typically a sign that someone isn’t doing the inner work when they talk about others.

And what a slap in the face to Jesus who said what we do to others we do to him.- loving or judging, healing or hurting Jesus is always in the eyes of that other person looking back at what we do to them.

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It’s what’s inside, that counts.

Along the lines of what @MichaelSnow has shared, there is a duality in play where two things exist, though different- or even opposites, but these two sides essentially co-exist. Both at the same time, polarity which we might think of in terms of good and evil, or good and the absence of good…

The principle is even more broadly understood in other ways-- the holy (set apart) and the profane (common). The spirit and the flesh, heaven and earth, the supernatural and the natural and so forth.

Throughout scripture, evil is equated to sin which is equated to the flesh-- humanity… or with respect to those words of Christ-- the cup. What is inside the cup (body) is the spirit-- breathed into us and it’s in spirit that we must be made clean.

I’m not tracking any requirement for making sacrifices as a condition for forgiveness. “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

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No, that sacrifice we give is not a requirement to recieve forgiveness. But an expectation of spiritual growth for the gift you are given. Forgiveness and love are seeds planted by God to grow fruit to someday harvest. We sacrifice our grudges, grievances, resentment, constant demands that others be perfect or sinless.and get right with God because it is the right thing to do. The parables of the tax collector whose debt is forgiven by his lord, but then who goes on to demand satisfaction by those who owe him exemplifies this. Relationships are reciprical in nature. And it helps to satisfy the law.

If the highest 2 commandments by which all others line up are- Love God with all, and love your neighbor as you love yourself, then love satiafies the law. If you in love show forgiveness and love to yourself, and then to others in equal measure, not only do you treat your neighbor right but you are showing love to God in whose image we are made, as well as Christ who said what you do for these you do unto me.

God’s love is unconditional. Love, by nature, is unconditional. If you have to earn it, then it’s not really love. Love is making peace with the flaw, accepting it exists and giving the person room to grow beyond it- letting good example and seeds of kindness, mercy, grace etc yield their fruit. Berating, damning, throwing sin in someone’s face only creates a wall of seperation and expands the divide. We cannot force change on another nor should we. And we cannot do the work for them.

We each must have our own unique ressurection moment. For each sin and flaw. Even kids who grew up in the church. These are moments where we become completely aware of our nakedness, where we realize we have done harm to a child (person) that God has created. And desire to change that behavior, no longer seeking to excuse or justify. The Holy Spirit works to soften the heart, lower the wall, and open the mind so each one of us can do that. God knows when we are ready. Man does not.

I was once told I needed to cut my long hair to be right with God. I, a ministry intern in college studying the Bible and writing esays about all kinds of God related things corrected by a member of the church who apparently never heard of Samson and the Nazarenes who grew their hair as part of a promise or vow to God… Who apparently was going on what church culture said was right with God rather than what God said… To which I nodded my head kindly and said nothing… Appearance vs the inside of the cup… One more reason not to judge others or try to change them is that the expectation of what you have regarding perfection may not be God’s. Jesus is our Shepherd, not sister sheep or brother goat.

Not to mention, when we forgive we let go of the burden we carry of each infraction against us. Forgiveness leads to healing. It does not mean we leave ourselves open to be hurt again. It means we no longer let what happened to us define our lives. Christ does that. Love does that

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:grinning: -so did you go get a haircut?

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I take issue with people telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. Controlling and manipulating others is the sin of witchcraft.

But I had no issue cutting my own hair a year later when i gave my little cousin a hug, fully knowing she had lice. All because it mattered.to me whether she would feel loved if I didn’t give her a hug before I returned to college from a visit home. I graduated that year with a shaved head.

We have to choose our battles. And not everything is black or white choices. There are lots of greys and room to be both wrong and right.

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I found the conversation funny, because I was waiting my turn for a haircut at that exact moment. My hair is the very embodiment of some of those grey areas. :rofl:

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You never know…Syncronicity could be God’s way of letting you know He is there. I could never know you were having a haircut… But God does.

Have a great day.

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It matters a lot whether it is true or not. this is the problem with so many in Christianity. The truth doesn’t matter if it backs up their point of view.

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I agree, the truth is important. Especially when you run the risk of cult leaders misleading people- Jim Jones being a prime example.

And then there are those mentally different types, Narcissits or Borderline Personality types. or general deceptive types who manipulate Christians, weaponizing God’s People by askewing God’s word in order to achieve some nefarious goal like attacking innocent people. Vulnerable people. Minorities…

How many poor elderly women died horribly becauae they were accused of witchcraft a few hundred years ago? Or that poor innocent Russian couple who were executed for the Linberg baby’s kidnapping because good moral people were riled up to do harm.

How many Christians value money over God? How many Christians value their guns over Jesus?

Hot button issues, YES

YES, responsible money management is important but not worth your soul if you value money over God’s Kingdom and misuse it for ypur own pleasure while people are starving to death. It is not okay for lawmakers to get rid of meal programs for starving children only to increase their own lunch budget the following weeks- something that was on the news this past year.

Sanctity of Life? YES. But It is not okay to fight for an end to Abortion if you don’t ensure that baby has everything it needs to be healthy as it grows. It is not okay to be dismissive of a pandemic and send your children back to school to become infected and die before a vaccine is made. Or to fight for a right not to wear a mask when it will kill someone.

Gun Rights… Not a single gun in the Bible. Jesus doesn’r even say to keep swords handy. Yet how many Christians hold a weapon tighter than they do the Bible? How many clean their gun more than they read the Word and hold that Word in their mind?

YES, it keeps Americans one step from tyrany. But handing guns to killer without checks, mismanaging that right by leaving guns in reach of children- no, not okay at all. Not to mention in the times we live in, its not enough. If you aren’t leaening how to hack an enemy drone- a gun wont do you any good.

Christians have become tools for political movements. You are not an American. You are a Christian First. You don’t serve a President. You serve God. You are not to act Greater than the least of these. You are a servant. That is our place. Humble, washing feet, spreading God’s Word, choosing love, being just, not letting your baser passions get the better of you. That is what it means to follow Christ.

Pride comes before the fall. Beware the devil’s virtue.

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Actually…

“He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.” - Jesus

‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭36‬ ‭

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I found that interesting so I googled it… Not a call for violence…sources say, ( this is often interpreted as a symbolic instruction about being prepared for hardship and persecution, not a literal call to violence. )

Other scriptures say:
:Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Mathew 26:52

11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”
John 18:11

51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them? 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. (,*and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;)

not found in all Bibles *

John 9 51-55

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"There is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things” Isaiah 45:6–7

Through him all things were made
without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:3

Yes, God created evil.

Who created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good an Evil?

God.

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Welcome SilentOnAll.

Yes, if we believe that God is above all and creator of all, then He is ultimately responsible for all-- the good, the bad and the ugly. For how can we praise him for everything beautiful if we don’t acknowledge that the same God created the things that are not beautiful, not good, not right… right?

Isaiah 45 is full of proud boasting. Let me ask you-- does the elohim in Isaiah 45 (read the whole thing) sound at all like ‘the Father’ God that Jesus references?

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You are wrong, my friend. God created everything, and He created it all perfectly. What you are saying—about ugliness and all that—is a result of human actions: ecology, nutrition, drugs, mixed marriages, etc. To assert what you are asserting is incorrect. One must know and provide facts.

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Everything has a cause-and-effect relationship, or at least why do all people have a blood type?

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Farid, maybe lost in translation, but that is the point I was making/question I was asking.

It’s a misrepresentation to suggest that God created (as if by design) things that are abhorrent or evil. Even Satan himself had a perfect beginning. Some things are not creations, but consequences.