Do the Gifts of the Spirit, Including Speaking in Tongues, Still Operate Today?

General Faith
41

Then don’t lecture me @SincereSeeker

The cessationism vs. continuationism debate centers on whether spiritual gifts like prophecy, tongues, and healing ceased after the apostolic era or continue today. Below is a concise overview of the contested data, covering biblical, theological, historical, and experiential arguments.

  1. Biblical Evidence
    Both sides rely on Scripture, but interpretations differ due to ambiguous texts.
    Cessationist Arguments:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10: Cessationists interpret “the perfect” as the completed New Testament canon, arguing that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge ceased once Scripture was finalized.
Ephesians 2:20: The church is built on the “foundation” of apostles and prophets, implying their gifts ended with the apostolic era.
2 Corinthians 12:12: Miracles were “signs of a true apostle,” suggesting they were exclusive to apostles.
Hebrews 2:3-4: Miracles confirmed the apostolic message, unnecessary after the canon closed.
Miracles decline in later New Testament writings (e.g., Paul leaves people sick, 1 Timothy 5:23), supporting cessation.

Continuationist Arguments:

1 Corinthians 13:8-12: “The perfect” refers to Christ’s return, not the canon, implying gifts continue until then (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:4-8).
1 Corinthians 14:1, 39: Paul urges believers to desire prophecy and not forbid tongues, with no time limit.
Acts 2:17-18: The Spirit’s outpouring in the “last days” includes prophecy, applicable to the entire church age.
Non-apostles (e.g., Philip’s daughters, Acts 21:9) exercised gifts, suggesting they were not apostle-exclusive.

Contested Issues:

Meaning of “the perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
Whether prophecy is authoritative (cessationist view) or fallible guidance (continuationist view).
Lack of explicit Scripture stating gifts ceased, placing the burden on cessationists.

  1. Theological Arguments
    Cessationist Perspective:

Miracles authenticated new revelation (e.g., Moses, Jesus, apostles). With the canon closed, they’re unnecessary.
Ongoing prophecy risks undermining Scripture’s sufficiency (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Apostleship, tied to eyewitnesses of Christ, ceased, so associated gifts did too.

Continuationist Perspective:

God’s unchanging nature (Hebrews 13:8) suggests He still works through gifts.
The Spirit empowers believers for edification and mission (1 Corinthians 12:7), not just authentication.
Modern prophecy is non-canonical, not challenging Scripture’s authority.

Contested Issues:

Were gifts only for authentication, or also for ongoing church edification?
Does continuationism risk adding to Scripture, or does cessationism limit the Spirit?

  1. Historical Evidence
    Cessationist Arguments:

Miracles declined post-apostolic era, with early fathers like Augustine noting fewer signs.
Reformation cessationism countered Catholic miracle claims, arguing they were unnecessary post-canon.
Historical silence on gifts in mainstream churches supports cessation.

Continuationist Arguments:

Early fathers (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus) reported ongoing miracles and prophecy.
Institutional church may have suppressed gifts, explaining their decline.
Pentecostal/Charismatic revivals (20th century) show widespread gift experiences globally.

Contested Issues:

Does historical decline indicate divine cessation or human suppression?
Are post-apostolic miracle reports reliable?

  1. Experiential Evidence
    Cessationist Arguments:

Modern tongues/healings don’t match biblical patterns (e.g., tongues as known languages in Acts 2).
Charismatic abuses (false prophecies, fake healings) suggest modern claims aren’t from the Spirit.
Lack of verifiable miracles in many Western churches supports cessation.

Continuationist Arguments:

Global reports of healings and prophecy, especially in mission fields, align with biblical patterns.
Personal testimonies (e.g., scholars like Sam Storms) support ongoing gifts.
Even cessationists like Spurgeon reported supernatural insights, resembling prophecy.

Contested Issues:

Are modern gifts authentic, or do they differ from biblical descriptions?
How much weight should experience carry compared to Scripture?

  1. Common Ground

The Spirit remains active in the church.
Non-miraculous gifts (e.g., teaching) continue.
Scripture is the final authority.
The debate is secondary to core doctrines like salvation.

  1. Critical Analysis

Cessationist Weaknesses: No explicit biblical proof of cessation; historical decline doesn’t negate global reports; risks limiting the Spirit.
Continuationist Weaknesses: Modern abuses raise concerns; fallible prophecy risks confusion with Scripture; reliance on experience can overshadow exegesis.
Middle Ground: “Open but cautious” evangelicals accept possible gifts but scrutinize claims, though this lacks clarity on obeying 1 Corinthians 14:1.

The cessationism-continuationism debate hinges on ambiguous biblical texts, theological assumptions, historical interpretations, and modern experiences. Cessationists stress Scripture’s sufficiency and historical decline, but lack explicit proof. Continuationists emphasize ongoing Spirit activity, but must address abuses. The debate is significant but not central to the gospel. For deeper study, see Are Miraculous Gifts for Today? (Grudem) or The Moody Handbook of Theology (Enns).

J.

42

Johann, respectfully, when iron sharpens iron, sparks fly. That’s not a lecture. That’s what happens when the Word does what it’s supposed to do. Paul didn’t ask the Bereans not to fact-check him. He praised them because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what he said was true. If you feel confronted, it’s not because I raised my voice. It’s because the Word raised the standard.

Now let’s address the substance. You say this isn’t central to the gospel. But tell that to the believers in Acts who received the Holy Spirit and immediately spoke in tongues, prophesied, and turned cities upside down. Tell that to Paul who wrote entire chapters correcting the use of gifts, not denying their presence. The same Paul who said “Do not forbid speaking in tongues.” The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead was still healing the sick, casting out demons, and speaking through His people in Acts 28. No expiration date.

The real issue isn’t whether God can give gifts today. It’s whether we’ve become so accustomed to powerless Christianity that anything supernatural feels suspicious. Tongues don’t confuse me. A church that’s more comfortable with theological safety than spiritual obedience does.

I’m not trying to win an argument. I’m trying to stay faithful to the witness of Scripture. God hasn’t changed. His Spirit hasn’t grown silent. And the fire that fell in Acts still falls on those who ask, believe, and don’t box Him in with tradition dressed up as doctrine.

You’re not under attack. You’re being invited higher. Don’t mistake conviction for condescension. This is a battlefield of ideas, not a brunch table of polite nods.

Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

43

Rightly so.

Acts and the Normativity of Gifts
Your Claim- Believers in Acts received the Spirit, spoke in tongues, prophesied, and transformed cities, suggesting gifts are normative. The Spirit’s power in Acts 28 (healing, casting out demons) has “no expiration date.”
Debunking-

Acts’ Context: Acts is a historical narrative, not a prescriptive manual. The verb elaloun (imperfect, “they were speaking” in tongues, Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6) describes specific outpourings of the Spirit (epipesen, aorist, “fell upon,” Acts 10:44) to mark redemptive-historical transitions: Jews (Acts 2), Gentiles (Acts 10), and John’s disciples (Acts 19). These are not normative for all believers. The phrase glōssais (“tongues”) in Acts denotes known languages (dialekto, Acts 2:8), unlike the unintelligible speech often claimed today.
Acts 28:8-9 (ἐθεραπεύοντο, “were healed”): Paul’s healings (etherapeuonto, imperfect passive) occur in a transitional period, authenticating his apostolic ministry (sēmeia, “signs,” 2 Corinthians 12:12). The absence of an explicit “expiration date” doesn’t prove perpetuity; Acts records unique apostolic acts, not a universal pattern.

The verb ekatharizeto (“was cleansed,” Acts 28:8, demon expulsion) is tied to Paul, not ordinary believers.
Greek Insight: The aorist verbs in Acts’ Spirit outpourings (epelthen, “came upon,” Acts 2:1; eplēsthēsan, “were filled,” Acts 2:4) emphasize one-time events, not ongoing norms. Normative commands for all believers (e.g., agapate, “love,” present imperative, John 13:34) are absent for tongues or prophecy.

Conclusion-Acts shows sign gifts as apostolic signs, not perpetual mandates. The Greek verbs highlight unique events, not ongoing expectations.

  1. Paul’s Instructions on Gifts
    Your Claim-Paul’s chapters (1 Corinthians 12-14) correct the use of gifts, not deny them, and his command “do not forbid speaking in tongues” (1 Corinthians 14:39) implies their continuation.
    Debunking-

1 Corinthians 14:39 (μὴ κωλύετε, “do not forbid”): The present imperative kōluete (“keep forbidding”) addresses the Corinthian church’s specific misuse of tongues (glōssais lalein). Paul regulates (taxis, “order,” 1 Corinthians 14:40), not universalizes, their use. The verb zēloute (“eagerly desire,” present imperative, 1 Corinthians 14:1) for prophecy prioritizes edification, not perpetuity. The Corinthian context (apostolic era, immature church) doesn’t mandate gifts for all time.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (παύσονται, καταργηθήσονται): Tongues “will cease” (pausontai, future middle), and prophecy/knowledge “will be rendered inoperative” (katargēthēsontai, future passive). The middle voice of pausontai suggests tongues self-cease, possibly earlier than other gifts. To teleion (“the perfect,” neuter adjective) likely refers to the completed canon, as to ek merous (“the partial”) includes prophecy (prophēteia), which delivers revelation. The canon’s completion (graphē, 2 Timothy 3:16) fulfills this purpose, rendering sign gifts obsolete.
Greek Morphology: The passive katargēthēsontai implies an external act (God completing Scripture), not an eschatological event (Christ’s return, as you claim). Your view of teleion as the consummation relies on 1 Corinthians 13:12 (esoptron, “mirror”; prosōpon pros prosōpon, “face to face”), but teleion’s neuter form fits an abstract concept (Scripture) better than Christ (masculine, Christos).

Conclusion- Paul’s instructions are context-specific, and the Greek verbs in 1 Corinthians 13 point to cessation with the canon’s completion, not perpetual gifts.

  1. The Spirit’s Ongoing Work
    Your Claim- The Spirit who raised Christ (egeirō, Romans 8:11) still heals, casts out demons, and speaks, unchanged by tradition. Cessationism reflects a “powerless” church suspicious of the supernatural.
    Debunking-

Romans 8:11 (ἐγείραντος, “raised”): The participle egeirantos (aorist, “having raised”) refers to Christ’s resurrection, a unique event, not ongoing miracles. The Spirit’s power (dunamis) continues (zōopoiēsei, “will give life,” future, Romans 8:11), but through sanctification and illumination (phōtizō, Ephesians 1:18), not sign gifts.
John 16:13 (ὁδηγήσει, “will guide”): The Spirit’s guidance (hodēgēsei, future active) is to “all truth” (panta tēn alētheian), fulfilled in the apostles’ writings (graphē, 2 Timothy 3:16, theopneustos, “God-breathed”). Ongoing prophēteia risks adding to this, undermining ikanē (“sufficient,” 2 Timothy 3:17).
Supernatural Suspicion: Cessationists don’t deny God’s power (dunamis, Acts 1:8) but argue sign gifts (charismata, 1 Corinthians 12:4) were apostolic tools. The verb diaireseis (“distributions,” 1 Corinthians 12:11) shows the Spirit’s sovereignty to cease distributing certain gifts. Modern claims of tongues (glōssais lalein) often differ from Acts 2’s xenoglossia, and unverified healings (iamata, 1 Corinthians 12:9) lack apostolic clarity (saphēs, Acts 4:31).

Conclusion: The Spirit’s power continues through Scripture and sanctification, not sign gifts. Greek verbs tie His work to the completed revelation, not ongoing miracles.

  1. Powerless Christianity and Tradition
    Your Claim-Cessationism reflects a church comfortable with “theological safety” over obedience, boxing in the Spirit with tradition.
    Debunking-

Ephesians 2:20 (θεμελίῳ, “foundation”): The church’s foundation (themelion, dative) is apostles and prophets (apostolōn kai prophētōn), with an aorist participle (epoikodomēthentes, “having been built”).

J.

44

Couldn’t finish my rebuttal.

J.

45

Johann, you’ve come armed with the Greek, the grammar, and the glosses. I see the structure, the syntax, the scholarly footwork. But if the house is built on the wrong foundation, all the parsing in the world won’t keep it from crumbling when the Spirit breathes.

Let’s get real. You’re treating the book of Acts like it’s a documentary about a long-dead movement, when in fact it’s the Spirit’s live broadcast of what happens when heaven invades earth. You say Acts is descriptive, not prescriptive. So is Calvary. So is the resurrection. Should we treat those as history-only too? If we applied that logic consistently, we’d shelve half the Bible and neuter the rest.

Yes, the tongues in Acts 2 were known dialects. But that is not the only kind of tongues Scripture presents. Paul distinguishes between “varieties of tongues” (1 Corinthians 12:10) and even says “no man understands” when someone speaks in the Spirit (1 Corinthians 14:2). That is not xenoglossia. That is Spirit-to-God communication. No translation app required.

You make much of the Greek tenses to prove the gifts were one-time events. But what about Paul’s command in the present imperative not to forbid speaking in tongues? He wasn’t just cleaning up Corinth’s mess. He was making sure the baby didn’t get thrown out with the bathwater. If tongues were meant to die out with the apostles, why not just say so? Instead, the Word says, “I would that ye all spoke in tongues” and “forbid not.” That is not caution tape. That is green light.

You say “the perfect” is the canon. But the canon isn’t coming “face to face” with me, and it doesn’t “know me fully even as I am known.” That is not a leather-bound Bible. That is the return of the Lamb. That is when the partial gifts pass away, not before.

You keep insisting the gifts ceased because the foundation was laid. But the house isn’t finished. The mission isn’t over. The gospel hasn’t reached every nation, and the Church isn’t spotless yet. Paul’s signs were for authentication, yes, but the Spirit’s gifts were also for edification. The Spirit did not retire. He regenerates. He convicts. He empowers. And yes, He still gives gifts “as He wills.”

The real danger here is not emotionalism or counterfeit tongues. The real danger is building a theology of safety that strips the Spirit of His present work because we’re uncomfortable with the mess of the supernatural. That’s not discernment. That’s disobedience dressed in doctrinal sophistication.

If Scripture is sufficient, then let Scripture speak. And Scripture says the gifts were poured out in the last days, not the first days only. Last time I checked, we’re still in them.

Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

46

You’re not engaging in a dialogue, just repeating yourself in a one-man monologue. Engage with the Scriptures instead of adding things I never said.

My Rebuttal to You: You claim Acts is a “live broadcast” of the Spirit’s work, not a historical documentary, and equating it to Calvary or the resurrection implies its gifts are normative.
Debunking:

Acts’ Genre: Acts is narrative, not prescriptive like epistles. Elaloun (imperfect, “were speaking” tongues, Acts 2:4; 10:46) and epipesen (aorist, “fell upon,” Acts 10:44) describe unique Spirit outpourings for Jews, Gentiles, and John’s disciples, marked by aorists (eplēsthēsan, “were filled,” Acts 2:4). Unlike Calvary’s command (poieite, present imperative, “keep doing,” 1 Corinthians 11:24), no verb mandates ongoing tongues (glōssais lalein).

Calvary/Resurrection: These are salvific events (stauroō, aorist, “crucified,” Galatians 2:20; egēgertai, perfect, “has been raised,” 1 Corinthians 15:4), not repeatable gifts (charismata, 1 Corinthians 12:4). Acts’ signs authenticate apostles (sēmeia, 2 Corinthians 12:12), not all believers. 2Co 12:12 Indeed, the signs of an apostle have been done among you with all patient endurance, both signs and wonders and deeds of power.

Conclusion: Acts’ aorists show transitional events, not norms, unlike salvific imperatives.

  1. Varieties of Tongues
    My Rebuttal to You: You argue Acts 2’s dialects aren’t the only tongues; 1 Corinthians 14:2’s unintelligible speech is Spirit-to-God communication, not xenoglossia.
    Debunking–my rebuttal-

1 Corinthians 12:10 (γένη γλωσσῶν, “varieties of tongues”): Genē (kinds) may include dialects or angelic speech (13:1), but 14:10-11 compares tongues to human languages (phōnōn, “sounds”). Oudeis akouei (“no one understands,” 14:2, present) requires interpretation (diermēneuo, 14:13), unlike Acts 2’s clarity (dialekto, Acts 2:8). This suggests Corinthian tongues were still structured, not modern ecstatic speech.
Cessationist View: Tongues’ purpose was apostolic authentication (sēmeion, 14:22). Pausontai (future middle, “will cease,” 13:8) implies self-cessation, likely post-apostles, as their role waned.

Conclusion: Tongues’ biblical form differs from modern claims, and pausontai supports cessation.

  1. Paul’s Command on Tongues
    My Rebuttal to You: Paul’s present imperative “do not forbid” tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39) and “I would that ye all spoke” (14:5) show a green light, not an apostolic limit.
    Debunking:

1 Corinthians 14:39 (μὴ κωλύετε): Kōluete (present imperative, “do not keep forbidding”) regulates Corinth’s chaos, not all churches. Taxis (order, 14:40) governs use. Thelō (“I would,” 14:5, present) is hypothetical, favoring prophecy (prophēteuō, 14:1) for edification (oikodomē, 14:3). Wouldn’t you agree?!

No Explicit End: Paul doesn’t say tongues cease, but pausontai (13:8) and katargēthēsontai (prophecy, passive, 13:8) suggest cessation with to teleion (“the perfect,” 13:10), likely the canon (graphē, 2 Timothy 3:16), as to ek merous (“partial”) includes revelation gifts.

Conclusion: Kōluete is context-specific; pausontai points to cessation.

  1. “The Perfect” as Christ’s Return
    My Rebuttal to You: You claim to teleion (1 Corinthians 13:10) is Christ’s return, not the canon, citing “face to face” and “known fully.”
    Debunking:

1 Corinthians 13:10 (τὸ τέλειον): Teleion (neuter, “perfect”) fits the canon, as to ek merous (prophecy, knowledge) delivers revelation. Katargēthēsontai (passive, “will be rendered inoperative”) implies God’s act (completing graphē). Prosōpon pros prosōpon (“face to face,” 13:12) is metaphorical for clear knowledge via Scripture, not literal (Christ is Christos, masculine). Ginosko (“know fully,” future passive) aligns with graphē’s sufficiency (ikanē, 2 Timothy 3:17).

Conclusion: Teleion’s grammar supports the canon, not eschatology.

  1. Foundation and Mission
    My Rebuttal to You: You say the church’s mission continues, so gifts (edification, not just authentication) persist, as the Spirit still empowers.
    Debunking:

Ephesians 2:20 (θεμελίῳ): Themelion (foundation) of apostolōn kai prophētōn (apostles, prophets) with epoikodomēthentes (aorist, “having been built”) shows a completed role. Sign gifts (sēmeia, 2 Corinthians 12:12) were foundational.
1 Corinthians 12:7 (οἰκοδομήν): Gifts edify (oikodomēn), but diaireseis (distributions, 12:11) allows the Spirit to cease sign gifts. Dunamis (power, Acts 1:8) continues via preaching (kērusso, 1 Corinthians 1:23), not charismata.

Conclusion: Themelion and diaireseis limit gifts to apostles.

  1. Last Days and Obedience
    My Rebuttal to You: You argue gifts were poured out in the “last days” (Acts 2:17), not first days, and cessationism is disobedience to Scripture’s call for gifts.
    Debunking:

Acts 2:17 (ἐκχεῶ, “pour out”): Ekcheō (future, Joel’s prophecy) marks the church age’s start, but prophēteusousin (future, “will prophesy”) is tied to apostolic revelation (apokalupsis, Galatians 1:12). Graphē fulfills this (2 Timothy 3:16). Sbennute (1 Thessalonians 5:19, “do not quench”) with dokimazete (test, 5:21) demands scrutiny, not blind acceptance of modern prophēteias.

Conclusion: Ekcheō’s outpouring is fulfilled; cessationism tests, not disobeys.

“Dividing to every man as he will.” (diairoun idia hekasto kathos bouletai) “distributing separately or personally to each one as he (the Holy Spirit) wills.” The Spirit, as a person, was here declared to have had and exercised His judgment or discerning will in parceling gifts out to each Corinth church member, according to need. His will is always Holy, Heb_4:7; Rev_22:17.

Pun noted on the “App”

J.

49

Johann, since you’re calling for dialogue, let’s have one.

You say I’m repeating myself and adding what you never said. But when you bring up cessationism’s house of Greek verbs and grammatical scaffolding, don’t be surprised when I come swinging with the sword of the Spirit and a few theological torches. You’re stacking a lot of syntax on a foundation that still doesn’t say what you want it to say.

Let’s start where you did: Acts. You call it a historical narrative, and I agree. But historical narrative doesn’t mean historical irrelevance. If we treated everything in Acts as a one-time transition, we’d have to lock Pentecost, missions, church planting, the Holy Spirit’s leading, and baptism by immersion in the museum too. We don’t. Why? Because while Acts describes, it also reveals what the Spirit does when the gospel breaks into the world. And we’re still in that world.

Now to tongues. You say Paul’s “do not forbid” is local, limited, and tame. But the church in Corinth was a mess, not a model—and Paul still didn’t pull the plug on the gift. If he didn’t shut it down in the middle of chaos, why would we slam the brakes now in the middle of apathy? He says “I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all.” That wasn’t a backhanded rebuke. That was a Spirit-filled flex. And the context makes it clear—tongues builds up when used rightly, especially when paired with interpretation.

As for 1 Corinthians 13, you keep tying “the perfect” to the completed canon. But Paul didn’t say “when the Scriptures come.” He said “when the perfect comes.” And he links that to seeing face to face, not reading page to page. Scripture is perfect in authority, but not what Paul’s talking about. He’s speaking of the consummation, not the compilation. Until then, the partial gifts still function.

Now your argument from “apostolic foundation.” Yes, the apostles and prophets are foundational. But don’t confuse the foundation with the plumbing. The gifts weren’t just poured out to prove apostles existed. They were poured out to edify the church. You’re telling the Spirit He only had one job—laying bricks. But Paul says the gifts were given “for the common good” (1 Corinthians 12:7). He doesn’t say, “until the apostles die.” He says, “as He wills.” And He still does.

You point to grammar. I point to the living Church across the globe where God is still healing, still speaking, still empowering, still calling. Not through new Scripture. But through the same Spirit.

You say I add things you never said. Here’s what you do say: that the gifts are done, the signs have passed, and the Spirit now just spotlights Scripture. I say the Spirit magnifies the Word and moves in power. He convicts, sanctifies, gifts, empowers, sends, speaks, and builds. Not in contradiction to Scripture, but in obedience to it.

Let’s not pretend the early church needed the Spirit more than we do. Look around. Apostasy is everywhere, the Church is soft, and the world is drunk on delusion. If anything, we need more fire, not less. More Spirit, not just smarter exegesis.

We can keep parsing participles, but until we submit to the whole counsel of God—including the uncomfortable parts—we’re just arguing the recipe with no flame under the pot.

Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

50

Personally, I think it would help to tone things down a notch.

One Body with Many Members
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
**1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
**
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
**1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Exegete this for me,** @SincereSeeker

J.

51

While you are at it @SincereSeeker expound these more fully.

Gifts and Signs in the Epistles (outside 1 Corinthians)
Romans 12:6–8 – List of grace-gifts
prophecy (prophēteia)

service (diakonia)

teaching (didaskōn)

exhortation (parakalōn)

giving (metadidous)

leading (proistamenos)

mercy (eleōn)

Note: These are practical, Spirit-empowered roles in the Church, not sensational, but supernaturally empowered.

Ephesians 4:11–13 – Christ’s gifts to the Church
Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers

Given “to equip the saints,” not just for the first century

Hebrews 2:3–4 – God confirmed the gospel with signs and gifts
Greek: sēmeiois, terasin, poikilais dunamesin, merismois Pneumatos

“God also bearing witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts (distributions) of the Holy Spirit, according to His will”

Galatians 3:5 – The Spirit supplied and worked miracles among them
Greek: energōn dunameis (working powers)

1 Thessalonians 1:5 – The gospel came not in word only, but in power and the Holy Spirit
Greek: dunamei kai en Pneumati Hagiō

Implies charismatic confirmation

Gospels: Signs, Healings, and Spirit Empowerment
Though not the post-Pentecost gifts per se, they reveal the pattern of Spirit-empowered ministry that Jesus promised would continue:

Luke 9:1–2 – Jesus gave the Twelve power and authority over demons and to heal

Greek: dunamin kai exousian

Mark 16:17–18 – “These signs shall follow those who believe…”

Cast out demons

Speak in new tongues (glōssais kainais)

Lay hands on the sick and they recover

(Note: debated textual variant, but widely influential in charismatic theology)

John 14:12 – “Greater works than these shall you do”

Future-present promise of empowered discipleship

Summary Chart
Reference Gift or Sign Greek Term(s)
Acts 2:4 Tongues, prophecy glōssais, apophthengesthai
Acts 5:12–16 Healing, signs, deliverance sēmeia, therapeuō
Acts 10:46 Tongues and praise glōssais, megalynontōn
Romans 12:6–8 Prophecy, service, teaching prophēteia, diakonia, didaskōn
Ephesians 4:11 Office gifts (apostle, prophet, etc.) edōken tous
Hebrews 2:4 Signs, miracles, gifts of the Spirit terasin, dunameis, merismois Pneumatos
Galatians 3:5 Working of miracles energōn dunameis
Mark 16:17–18 Tongues, healing, deliverance glōssais kainais, therapeusousin

These passages show the continuity of charismatic operation from Christ’s ministry to the apostles, to the churches in Acts, and on into the epistles. The Holy Spirit’s gifts were never restricted to Corinth alone. And the verbs used, speaking, healing, prophesying, empowering, distributing, confirming, show dynamic divine activity, not just static doctrine.

@KPuff you are welcome to join in.

J.

52

I did already See #30

KP

53

@KPuff
I noticed about ten minutes ago that the debate is still going strong,soft cessationists, hard cessationists, and continuationists all weighing in. For Pentecostals and charismatics, this kind of discussion isn’t usually a stumbling block, especially not for those outside the Word of Faith stream.

J.

54

@Johann,

I appreciate your thoroughness, but let’s not turn a sniper debate into a scattershot sermon. The question on the table is clear: Do the gifts of the Spirit—including speaking in tongues—still operate today? That’s the topic. Not “How diverse is the body of Christ?” Not “Let’s all love each other more.” And not “Here’s a chart of every mention of miracles in the Bible.”

If you want to explore the harmony of the Church body, the centrality of charity, or the full panorama of gifts… valuable topics, no doubt… I would respectfully suggest starting a separate thread. Those deserve their own focused attention without hijacking this one.

Back to the actual subject at hand:

1 Corinthians 12:29–30

These rhetorical questions—“Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?”… prove selective distribution of gifts. But they do not prove present continuation. That’s not an argument for modern tongues. That’s just a reminder that not everyone had them then. It says nothing about now.

1 Corinthians 13:8–10

You quoted it, but didn’t address it. “Tongues will cease.” “Prophecies will pass away.” “When the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.” That’s not sentiment. That’s timeline. Are tongues part of the “partial” that faded when the “perfect” came? That’s the theological lightning rod. Dodging that verse is dodging the debate.

Romans 12, Ephesians 4, Hebrews 2, Galatians 3

You’re highlighting passages that list various gifts or affirm God’s power… which no one here denies. But the question isn’t did God once empower the Church? The question is does He still do so in the same way, with the same signs, as normative expressions? That’s what you need to engage.

So again, feel free to launch a new thread on unity or body life if that’s where your heart is leading you. But on this thread, let’s lock our sights back on the actual target: Are the sign gifts… especially tongues… still operating today as they did in Acts and Corinth?

Your move.

Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

55

Hey, @SincereSeeker I need to be honest with you, I don’t appreciate the tone you’ve taken. I might catch some heat for saying this, but I think it’s important to be clear about where we stand. I also find your sneaky, punchy-heavy rhetorical style off-putting. Maybe that’s just how you engage, but it doesn’t sit right with me.

I’m stepping away from this thread and won’t be engaging further on this topic.
—————————————————————————————————————-
which is perfect. This phrase has vexed interpreters, and no agreement upon its application has been reached. It may refer to (1) the Second Advent of Christ, 1Co_13:12, 1Co_11:26, (2) the completion of the canon; that is, the writing of the inspired books of New Testament Scripture, so ending the need for revelatory and confirmatory gifts, Jhn_15:15, Rev_22:18, (3) The times of restitution of all things, the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, the times of refreshing, called “the regeneration,” Mat_19:28, Act_1:6; Act_3:19-21, **Heb_11:39; **Heb_11:40, (4) the final maturing of the body of Christ, Eph_4:13, (5) the death and returning to be with Christ of the believer, Jhn_14:2-3, 2Co_5:8, Php_1:21; Php_1:23; Php_3:12, 1Jn_3:2, Rev_14:13, Several of these views have staunch advocates, particularly views 1, 2, and 4, For a thorough discussion of these matters see Robert L. Thomas, Understanding Spiritual Gifts, Moody Press, 1978. 1Co_2:6; 1Co_14:20, Jhn_15:15, Php_3:12; Php_3:15, *Eph_4:13, Heb_5:14; Heb_6:1.

J.

56

Give this a listen @KPuff and tell me what you think.

Finding Middle Ground Between Cessationism & Continuationism (Wes Huff Testimony)

The definitive Scripture reference that declares God is now speaking to us through His Son is Hebrews 1:1–2, which reads.

“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.”
(Hebrews 1:1–2, NKJV)

Πολυμερῶς καὶ πολυτρόπως (polumerōs kai polutropōs): “in many portions and in many ways” - referring to the fragmentary and diverse prophetic methods of the Old Testament.

ἐλάλησεν τοῖς πατράσιν ἐν τοῖς προφήταις (elalēsen tois patrasin en tois prophētais): “spoke to the fathers in the prophets” - this is the pattern of previous revelation.

ἐπ᾽ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων (ep’ eschatou tōn hēmerōn toutōn): “in these last days” - signals a decisive shift in redemptive history.

ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν Υἱῷ (elalēsen hēmin en Huiō): “He spoke to us in [His] Son” - not through a prophet, not through an angel, not in visions, but in the very person of Christ.

This passage teaches a covenantal and revelatory climax:
God’s former communication through prophets (Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.) was partial, preparatory, and progressive.
But now, in Jesus Christ, the incarnate Logos (John 1:14), the radiance of God’s glory (Hebrews 1:3), the crucified and risen Lord, God has spoken fully, decisively, and finally.

Cross and Kingdom Focus
The Son through whom God now speaks is the same Son who by Himself purged our sins (Hebrews 1:3) and sat down at the right hand of majesty, this speech is not only verbal, it is redemptive.
The crucified Christ is the final Word from God, the one in whom grace and truth are realized (John 1:17), who reveals the Father perfectly (John 14:9), and who reigns until all enemies are under His feet (1 Corinthians 15:25).

Thanks.

J.

57

@Johann, I noticed you said you were stepping away from the thread, yet you came back to drop an edit with a list of possible meanings for “the perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13. That’s not a retreat, that’s a return fire with a bibliography.

And here’s the thing. You just proved my point. You admitted what many have quietly known but few cessationists say out loud. That little phrase… “when the perfect comes”… has vexed interpreters for centuries. Scholars don’t agree. View one says it’s Christ’s return. View two says it’s the canon. View three says it’s the restoration of Israel. View four says it’s the maturity of the Church. View five says it’s the believer’s death and being with Christ. Pick your flavor.

The moment you admit there is no unanimous understanding, the cessationist argument loses its cornerstone. If “the perfect” is uncertain, then “tongues shall cease” is not a definitive timestamp. It’s a signpost pointing to an event we haven’t clearly identified. And if we haven’t reached that event, the gifts still stand.

You can quote Robert Thomas or stack commentaries to the ceiling, but ambiguity in Greek syntax cannot override clarity in Paul’s command. Do not forbid speaking in tongues. That’s not up for grammatical dissection. That’s an apostolic imperative.

You say you’re done, but the fact that you came back tells me the Holy Spirit hasn’t let you rest easy. Maybe that itch is conviction, not irritation.

If you want to reopen the conversation, I’m here for it. If not, I’ll let your edit speak for itself. Because what you wrote undermines the argument you walked in with.

Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

58

@SincereSeeker

Does Scripture say that prophecy would continue indefinitely in the church age, or does it indicate a foundational function now completed? Ephesians 2:20 says the church was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets—past tense. Are we still laying a foundation? Or has the Cornerstone already been set?

If prophecy continues, why is there no clear instruction in the epistles to appoint successors to the prophets, as we see with elders and deacons?

Why are we warned so frequently about false prophets (Matthew 7:15, 1 John 4:1), yet never told how to identify true modern ones by name or office in the post-apostolic church?

If modern “prophets” speak new revelations, is Christ’s Word insufficient? Is His cross not the final, public, saving act of God that reveals His will fully?

Are we really to believe that fallible, contradicting voices today should be given the same weight as those who wrote inspired Scripture under divine authority?

What are the New Testament spiritual gifts, and are they still normative today?

According to 1 Corinthians 12:8–10, the gifts listed include:

word of wisdom

word of knowledge

faith

gifts of healing

working of miracles

prophecy

discerning of spirits

various kinds of tongues

interpretation of tongues

Are these gifts prescriptive for every era, or descriptive for a transitional moment in redemptive history? Why is there no trace of tongues or healing offices after the apostolic period in the writings of the early church?

Do the Scriptures say that these gifts are ordinary operations in every generation, or were they signs and wonders accompanying the apostles (Hebrews 2:3–4)?

When Paul says “Do all speak in tongues? Do all prophesy?” (1 Corinthians 12:29–30), is he not emphasizing the non-universal nature of these gifts, even in their time?

When the New Testament closes, do we ever hear of a prophet correcting or supplementing apostolic doctrine? Or do we hear Peter affirming that the prophetic word is made “more sure” in Christ (2 Peter 1:19)?

Have you considered that the spiritual gifts, while real and powerful in their era, were not normative for the entire church age, but specific to the apostolic foundation, tied to verifying the gospel message in its explosive first-century spread?

And if God now speaks to us in His Son (Hebrews 1:2), is that voice not clear, final, and sufficient?

Answer these questions, since there are NO more apostles and prophets running around with new revelations.

Use the Scriptures, not experiences.

J.

59

You want Scripture? Let’s bring Scripture. You fire off questions like a theological Gatling gun, but underneath the smoke is one big assumption: that the gifts… especially prophecy… were foundational, transitional, and now terminated. So let’s walk this out, not by tradition, not by gut, but by the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:20 says the Church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.” But careful, Paul doesn’t say apostolic gifts were the foundation. He says the people were. The apostles and prophets were foundational in proclaiming Christ, yes. But guess what? We don’t relay a new Cornerstone every generation, yet the Gospel still gets preached. Just because the foundation was laid doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit stopped building the house (1 Peter 2:5).

Prophecy is not about laying a new foundation. It’s about upbuilding, encouragement, and consolation (1 Corinthians 14:3). That’s the New Testament job description. You think today’s prophecy needs to equal Scripture? That’s not what Paul taught. Prophecy is to be tested, not blindly canonized (1 Thessalonians 5:20–21). Big difference. If it had apostolic weight, Paul wouldn’t be telling people to sift it.

You ask, “Why no successors to prophets?” Where’s the command to replace apostles either? Matthias was chosen before Pentecost, and Paul was called directly by Christ. That was never a replicable pattern. Instead, what we do see is Paul urging the church to pursue spiritual gifts—especially that you may prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:1). That’s not nostalgia. That’s a present imperative.

As for warnings about false prophets… yes, Scripture is clear. But warnings against counterfeit don’t cancel the real. You don’t ban all gold because some folks sell fool’s gold. Jesus warned against false teachers too (Matthew 24:11). Should we then close seminaries?

You say Hebrews 1:2 means God only speaks through His Son now. Amen. But how does Jesus speak to His Church today? By the Holy Spirit, whom He sent (John 16:13). That Spirit speaks, guides, convicts, gives gifts. Not just in theory, but in practice. If the Spirit gave prophecy, tongues, healing, and words of knowledge in Acts and 1 Corinthians, and we’re told not to forbid them (1 Corinthians 14:39), why do we treat them like spiritual contraband?

You ask why early church fathers didn’t talk about healing or tongues. But read Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian. Miracles and prophecy didn’t vanish; they just weren’t front-page news anymore. Besides, we don’t interpret Scripture through silence in church history. We interpret history through the light of Scripture.

No, not everyone speaks in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30). Not everyone prophesies. Paul says so. But he also says we should earnestly desire the higher gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31). That was the call then, and there’s no verse that revokes it now.

If God now speaks through His Son, and that Son gave us His Spirit to dwell within us, then why would He go silent when the canon closed? Scripture is sufficient. That doesn’t mean the Spirit stopped moving. It means every movement must align with the Word. Full stop.

So let me flip your final line: Yes, there are no more apostles writing Scripture. But there are still gifts, still Spirit-filled believers, still prophecies that must be weighed, not wished away.

If you’re going to be sola Scriptura, then stay there. Don’t let tradition do the talking. Let the Word speak.

Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

60

I do believe that theses gifts still do exists today. Example of this is when we people are in church you will here the pastor or minister speak in tounges when the get to preaching really hard. These gifts still exist because the good lord Jesus wants us to have these gifts because of people sharing his word. This also means the holy spirit is working through the people who indeed has these gifts. So in conclusion I totallty agree that God still gives us these gifts.