Perfect, that what i wanted to say…we need to be strong..plus why are the posts given by blindwatchmaker mostly subjective and rarely has substance in it
You are correct Sam, and I pray the Lord will use you mightily for HIS glory, since you are still young, don’t allow pride to get a hold on you, since we all struggle, we need apologists in this day and age, and not pontificators.
Johann.
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Johann,
We could keep circling this endlessly—me affirming that my unbelief is sincere, you informing me that it’s really just pride or rebellion. That’s a playground game with no exit, and I concede there’s probably nothing I could say that would persuade you of my integrity.
So instead, let’s shift gears.
Join me in a thought experiment.
If my unbelief were sincere—if I had truly sought with an open heart, wrestled honestly, and come up empty—not out of defiance but simply because I remained unconvinced… what should God do with someone like that?
Not what would He do, according to your theology.
What should a just and loving God do with someone who sought truth in earnest, lived decently, but ultimately couldn’t make themselves believe something they didn’t find true?
If your answer is still condemnation, then let’s not pretend the issue is sincerity. Let’s just admit the system doesn’t care about it.
My guess is that you won’t join me in this thought experiment because you cannot conceive that a sincere unbeliever is a possibility.
That is a massive blind spot Johann.
bro bro bro when will u stop this, like again how many times i have to tell u, stop being emotional and again u like shifiting topics and tap dancing
U think this is a playground game..that shows u have no idea of theology or philosophy and maybe thats why ur ans are so vague..this is abt truth which doesnt care what is ur emotional resonance or moral sentiment, its determined by reality and revelation
OK, ur asking what God shld do based on ur framweork of justice and love but u didnt defined the standard, u have ur own moral intuitions bulit from a finite mind then judging God against it
First answer the 6 questions i asked u, that why i asked the 6 questions, u see u dont have the answer to where the standard comes from, so again, dont be scared..just answer
then u say
I mean, whaat…
The system cares abt repentance and truth, not subjective sincerity that aint aligned with truth.
Again as i said, ur arguments are more subjective and less substance, and ur arguments have no basis
U didnt define where that standard comes from, u aint answering the 6 question which will define the basis of ur questions, which ur avoiding, clearly something is wrong here
So yeah..
You say we are circling, but we are not. I answered your questions. I gave you Scripture. I showed you the words of Jesus, the verbs of Paul, the warnings and the invitations. And now, you pivot.
You ask what God should do, not what He will do. But your thought experiment is already loaded. It assumes man is the measure and God is on trial.
Let me answer you plainly.
If your unbelief were sincere, if you had truly sought with an open heart, wrestled honestly, and come up empty—Scripture still speaks. “Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6).
The Greek verb is ζητοῦσιν zētousin, present participle active—those who are actively, continuously seeking. Not once. Not passively. But in pursuit.
Now you say you sought, but God disagrees. “You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13).
If you did not find, the issue is not sincerity by your standard. It is that your whole heart was not in it by His.
You ask what God should do. I ask you, by what standard? Yours? Should the pot say to the potter, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:20)? No. The potter has rights.
You say you want justice. “The soul that sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20). That is justice. But God did more.
He gave mercy.
He crushed His own Son (Isaiah 53:10). He opened the way by blood (Hebrews 10:19–20).
And you say you stayed outside because belief did not feel authentic? That is not honesty. That is self-rule.
You say you could not make yourself believe. But Scripture never says belief is self-made.
“Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ” (Romans 10:17). You did not lack evidence. You lacked surrender.
“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). The verb is ἠγάπησαν ēgapēsan—aorist active—they refused, once for all.
You imagine a sincere unbeliever and call it a blind spot in my theology. But the real blind spot is in your anthropology.
You underestimate the darkness of the heart and overestimate the nobility of doubt.
“This is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil” (John 3:19). That is Christ’s own diagnosis.
So I will not join your thought experiment, because God is not a thought. He is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29), a righteous judge (2 Timothy 4:8), and a Savior full of mercy (Titus 3:5). What should He do? He has done it. He sent His Son.
What should you do? Repent and believe the gospel.
This is not about whether the system cares about your sincerity. It is about whether you will bow to the truth.
You were not asked to create belief. You were called to receive the Word implanted, which is able to save your soul (James 1:21).
The door is open. But the time is short.
“Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart” (Hebrews 4:7).
Shalom brother.
Johann.
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Between the barely literate taunts of one contributor and the GPT-flavoured philosophical paste jobs of another, I think this thread has probably yielded whatever value it was going to.
I’ll end by pointing out that not a single person here has managed to explain how it could ever be moral to condemn someone for conclusions reached through honest, openhearted searching—especially if those conclusions turn out to be mistaken.
I suspect few here have paused to turn that lens on themselves. What if you are wrong? What if there is a God—but not the one you imagine? What if that God punishes blind allegiance to dogma and rewards intellectual honesty, even in the face of uncertainty?
I confess I’m a little disappointed. I’ve spent time engaging with serious Christians at the Faraday Institute in Cambridge—people of deep faith and thought—and their approach to this issue has been far more nuanced and open. Not one of them rushed to dismiss my sincerity or reframe my doubt as rebellion.
There is a better way to do this. Mindless verse-drops, spiritual threats, and AI-generated philosobabble aren’t it.
You say your question has not been answered. It has. Multiple times. You were shown:
• John 3:19–21 — Light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light.
• Hebrews 11:6 — Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 — They perish because they did not receive the love of the truth.
• Romans 10:17 — Faith comes by hearing, not by force of will.
• John 6:44 — No man can come unless the Father draws him.
Each verse confronts your framework. You just did not like the answers.
You claim no one here has explained how condemnation could be just if someone came to their conclusions through “honest searching.” But that assumes two things you have not proven:
First, that a man’s own evaluation of his heart is reliable.
But “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). If your search ends in unbelief, are you willing to say your heart is not deceived?
Second, that sincerity overrides truth. Would a sincerely mistaken pilot be excused if he flew 200 passengers into a mountain because he sincerely believed it was the runway? Sincerity cannot sanctify error. Why should it be different with God?
Now your own question returns to you:
What if you are wrong?
What if your sincerity is just a veil over self-trust?
What if the real dogma is the refusal to bow to anything higher than your own understanding?
What if blind allegiance to your own reason is itself the idolatry Scripture condemns?
You appeal to the Faraday Institute and claim you found more “nuance” there. Nuance is not the measure of truth. Fidelity to the Word is. And the Word says, “The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him” (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Did the Lord Jesus offer nuance to the rich young ruler? Or did He say, “One thing you lack… go, sell all that you have… then come, follow Me” (Mark 10:21)? Was that spiritual abuse or divine kindness?
You accuse others here of verse-dropping. But those verses are the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17). You call it “philosobabble,” but it is Scripture. Your quarrel is not with me. It is with God.
So again, questions for you:
• Why did you come here if not to hear the Word?
• Why do you demand that God validate a heart that questions Him, but bristle when He questions yours?
• Why do you call Scripture “threat” when it warns, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart” (Hebrews 3:15)?
• If your standard of sincerity is enough, why did Jesus say, “Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24)?
You want a better way. But Christ is the way (John 14:6). You want better speech. But “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ” (Romans 10:17).
Your disappointment is not with us. It is with a gospel that does not flatter the proud or bend to the intellect of man.
But the truth stands.
You were heard. You were answered. You were warned. You were loved.
What you do with that is not our responsibility anymore. It is yours.
Johann.
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U want a fruitful discussion when u are not bulging to learn but argue.
U said in my prev posts:
U were all about posting and replying and not learning
U cannot tell the basis of ur question
U cannot tell by what standard
U can’t defend ur own question
Ure sidestepping and avoiding philosophy and philosophical concepts that destroy ur argument
Ur are being emotional and sentimental in posts and don’t care about truth
Ur are not learning,
U don’t have any idea of philosophy (still surpised how u and my initial posts)
U don’t have any idea about theology
U are confused about theology and don’t have any idea
U don’t have any idea abt justice concepts
U cant defend the pillars of ur argument, then u use words like “cruel” etc to escape and avoid answering
U got axiological teleology completely wrong in the first place
U take philosophical concepts as jargons, then u don’t know the meaning of philosophy
U cannot and these 6 questions because it’s test the foundation of ur question, which proves ur question and ans are both faulty
If u come to learn and ask question, I will learn, but when u argue, avoid questions, sidesteps concepts which answers ur question, and blame, I will do that too
So bye
U can continue in this thread, I’m leaving
bye
wishing u all the best
no hard feeling for u
peace
sam
Blindwatchmaker
Thanks for your thoughts; thanks for your journalistic reporting from inside the bus. I really appreciate, and enjoyed reading your proverb too. I do not doubt, in fact, I would highly expect the view from inside the bus to look very different than the view from outside. I actually empathize with your point of view, because I too was a passenger, like you. I really don’t expect a different prospective, because I remember my own.
Your proverb has a few different characters; personalities, and assumed culpabilities, surmised from the passenger point of view seated say, on the aisle in row 17. You introduce an insensible bus owner controlling the doors who reads men’s hearts like a dime store novel, a dictatorial manual that cannot be deviated from, Superman, other similar busses with their own associated heroes, and one innocent passenger taking notes (I added that last part. Not to be offensive). Your story seems to be personal, and I can only assume your innocent passenger is a biopic of your own experience. I concede your man in aisle seat 17 is probably the most intelligent passenger on the bus. He is observant, logical, and comprehensive in his research. Not to mix metaphors, but from his seat he is also slashing about for someone to blame like a blindfolded child aimlessly whacks at a pinata. The blind kid actually does hit pinata sometimes, often with many strokes. No argument.
Your more elaborate story, “The view from inside the bus”, would make a far better Hollywood movie than the simple proverb I told. I would enjoy the opportunity to elaborate on it myself; I’d enjoy cowriting this story with you, creating backstories, plot twists, but… there’s that incessant ticking sound telling me to stay focused. You are not wrong about what you perceive from your seat. You are often not wrong about some of the conclusions upon which you land. (Confidentially, I am often much harder on those (us) outside the bus than you have ever dreamed of being. …another time.) I do not fault you or criticize you for your position. Even your understanding of “faith” looks very different to you than it does to me. Yours is the most common, mine far less common.
I have my own theories about why you have a different perspective, why you feel comfortable or even compelled to explain to the other passengers what is happening outside the bus, a place you have never been. I fully empathize with your uneasiness from inside, your determinism and your terror. I don’t fault you for casting blame while trying to educate the misinformed. It is actually commendable.
But there’s that ticking,… I can actually see the bomb from where I’m standing, red flashy light and everything. I did not get off the bus because I could see the bomb. I did not get off the bus because it seemed reasonable or logical. I did not get off because someone told me I was being proud for staying on or because someone was able to prove to me other men have disembarked before me. I did not get off the bus because I learned ancient languages, or I was convinced by ancient theories. I did not escape because I mustered up a sufficient amount of sincerity, performed certain rites, nor did I feel chosen as I stepped down the bus stairs. I got off the bus because my father told me, “Son, get off the bus, I paid the driver to let you off.”
I’m here if you need me
KP
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I did not leave the bus because I saw the bomb clearly, for my eyes were dim by nature. I left because the Master called me by name. Grace did not merely whisper in the din of confusion—it thundered down my rebellion, broke my pride, and said, ‘Live!’ And I obeyed, not because I discerned the cost of the fire ahead, but because I heard the Father’s voice and knew it was not to be resisted.
Johann.
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'xactly! Why would we then assume other passengers might leave by other means? What made us think we could “reason” them off, or we could “threaten” them off, or that we could “guilt” them off, or we could appeal to ancient scriptures in which they have no confidence. Those things did not ultimately convince you or I to disembark. Your Father did; His invitation was irresistable by your own testimony. Your testimony, Johann, is unasailable; your story may be doubted, but it cannot be refuted. To those on the bus, you are the living epistle, and your testimony is the only thing that some might hear. It IS the thing that your Father said He would use to bring others “off the proverbial bus”. The souls on the bus see the world from within the bus. They will never know us by our cleverness; not by our rhetoric, or by our sophistication, or by our arguments. They have all that stuff of their own. They will know we are HIS disciples by our {fill in the blank here}.
Much Love (rats, I just gave away the answer)
KP
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KP
Thanks again. Another generous and beautifully written response.
I can’t help but comparer your thoughtful empathic approach to meeting minds with the rather tone-deaf inputs from your co-apologists here.
I can hear in your words not only the metaphor but the memory—the sense of having once seen things as I do now, from inside the bus, and now standing elsewhere with a clearer view. There’s humility in that, and I respect it.
Your metaphor—this time with the Father paying the fare—adds another layer. It’s moving. And if I believed the world truly worked that way, I’d find it comforting too. But I hope you’ll allow me to say gently that this image, for all its beauty, still rests on something that troubles me: the idea that the doors open only for some, that the Father speaks clearly to certain sons but not others, and that those who don’t hear are left behind—not because they’re defiant, but because they weren’t able to receive what others somehow did.
You don’t portray that as pride or rebellion, and I’m grateful. But it still leaves a question hanging in the air—one that the ticking clock can’t override: If the only path to safety requires a kind of hearing or believing that not everyone is capable of mustering, what then?
If I had heard what you heard, seen what you saw, maybe I’d be standing beside you now. But I haven’t. And I can’t force myself to pretend I have.
So here I remain—watching the flashing light, listening for a voice I’ve never heard, and hoping that if the Owner of the bus is good, He won’t judge passengers for not knowing how to believe their way through a locked door.
Thanks again for the tone, the care, and the conversation.
That’s great for you Johann, but you are accidentally proving my point. You ‘heard the father’s voice’ and acted accordingly. Ask yourself what you might have done or believed differently if all you heard was silence?
And imagine if I accused you of NOT actually having heard the fathers voice but presumed to know better, saying that you had some other reason and that you’re actually dishonest.
you say
but this is a contradiction, YOU HAVE HEARD, you have read the gospel, u wrestled with metaphor and testimonies, uk the stories of grace. Your are responding to a voice u dont want to recognize as Lord.
but to summarize what i was telling for 2 days:
If God exists—and is truly holy, all-knowing, and just—then who gets to define what justice is?
Is it you, a finite creature bound by time, error, and subjectivity? Or is it God, who sees all things perfectly, including the depths of your heart, your motives, and every moral debt?
again the 6 questions, if u can ans, ans it pls, it will clear the foundational basis of ur question, so yeah..
Slight rebuke, @KPuff?
John 13:35 — ἐν τούτῳ γνώσονται πάντες ὅτι ἐμοὶ μαθηταί ἐστε, ἐὰν ἀγάπην ἔχητε ἐν ἀλλήλοις
“By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
No need for correction, often seen as “non-loving?”
You said the Father’s invitation was irresistible by my own testimony. Let me clarify something important. I am not a Calvinist and I do not mean irresistible in the deterministic sense Calvinism teaches as if my will was overridden or I had no capacity to refuse. What I do mean is that when the Father spoke I truly heard. And when I heard I could not un-hear. His word His love His truth cut through everything.
John 6:45 says Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. That is not coercion. That is the power of unveiled truth. It does not bypass the heart it breaks it open.
The Son said in John 12:32 And I when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all people to Myself. Draw not drag. Not force. He draws with pierced hands. I did not get off the bus because I was compelled against my will. I got off because I heard my Father and His voice was the end of all excuses.
So no I do not mean irresistible in the Calvinistic sense. I mean it was clear. It was real. It was Him, Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ. And once I saw it I responded.
My “story” may be doubted? I find this interesting brother.
So yes, they will know us by our love—John 13:35
But love speaks, love warns, love declares the gospel even when scorned
Love is not mute
Love does not shrug and say “testimony only”
Love preaches a crucified Christ
Love calls dead men to life because God does
So I ask you, are you sure it was only the Father’s whisper?
Or did His whisper come through the thundering cry of repent, believe, and live?
Because my Father still speaks that way.
Johann.
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I hold that my religious beliefs, examples you mentioned, are part of my perception. They influence my judgments and rationalize/justify my actions. Sometimes I feel guilty if I say words or act in ways I know are contrary to how I should have - sin. My will is the factor that is acting with or against my beliefs.
That said, over the years my beliefs have changed and consequentially, so have my memories.
You see well
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I don’t believe that I can will myself to faith. I’m a pretty staunch (some would say stubborn) Lutheran, and a core aspect of Lutheran theology is that faith comes extra nos, outside ourselves; specifically it is gift, God’s gift, something God gives and does. Which means I cannot take credit for my faith, it is something God graciously creates in me, the Holy Spirit gives me faith, and He does so through the Word (Romans 10:17) both when it is preached and also where the Word is materially present (the Sacraments, i.e. Baptism, the Lord’s Supper).
It is this gracious work through Word and Sacrament as the Means of Grace which God uses to work, create, and strengthen faith faith in me; and this is the drawing, calling, and choosing of God in Christ. In other words, if it is true that we were chosen–predestined, elected–in Christ before the foundation of the world (e.g. Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:29-30), this election is not some inscrutable secret where we are left wondering “am I truly one of God’s elect?” but instead is made manifestly plain and obvious. We can look to our baptism, point to it, and say “I am baptized” and this objective fact and truth is the declaration of God’s grace that we belong to Him in Christ, He chose us, He loved us from before all creation.
Now that God has chosen us, and is the One who works and gives faith does not mean that I don’t do anything at all ever. What I do with that faith is very much up to me in cooperation with God, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Not only in my works of obedience, such as loving my neighbor, abstaining from a myriad of evils, or in any other way being obedient to the Commandments of God (albeit imperfectly); but also in my belief. Faith is not of myself, it is God’s gift; but how I use that faith, in what I do, and also in what I think and believe, my attitudes, my disposition in life, etc are all faith-in-action. That means that when I confess the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds that very much involves choice. God has given me faith, and thus in faith the freedom to believe; but that freedom must be orientated toward truth. Because false doctrine and bad theology can have all manner of disastrous results in our spiritual life. Even a generally practical effect, after all if what I believe does not lead me to an obedient work of loving others but instead turns my heart callous, cold, and uncaring toward my neighbor then that is an obvious problem and it can, tragically, result in mortal sin, choking out faith, and even making shipwreck of our faith. If what I believe is false and does not lead me to Christ, to His Cross, if it does not ground me on the solid foundation of Jesus but instead leads me to constructing my house on an unsound foundation, on sand or mud, then the house may well collapse come the first windbreak or high tide.
So what we believe matters a great deal; and thus we need our faith to be shaped and molded by good teaching, by good theology, by the Word of God, being grounded in Jesus, being Jesus-focused, Jesus-orientated, Jesus-centered. Which is also why what we confess matters, it’s why why the shape of our religious and spiritual life matters–by the hymns or choruses we sing on Sunday, by the theologians, churchmen, philosophers, and teachers we turn our ears toward; by the sermons being delivered. It’s why being part of a faithful, grounded, confessing community matters, that our faith is being strengthened by Word and Sacrament by the Holy Spirit, and the shape of our lives of faith are being conformed to Christ by the work of the Spirit in the Church.
In this way “Choose this day whom you will serve” always matters, in the same way that Christ’s question, “Who do you say that I am?” always matters. These are questions that are being posed to us in all sorts of ways all day and every day. The call “Come, take up your cross and follow Me” is Christ’s constant call to us to come and follow, to come and hear the Master Teacher, the Good Shepherd, to sit at His feet, and abide in Him.
Did I choose faith? No, God in His eternal compassion and mercy toward me, a wretch and sinner, whom He knew before all the ages and loved me in Christ is gracious toward me, and invades by His love and mercy to turn this heart of stone into a heart of flesh–that I might hear the Word, and trust the Word; that I should be united to Christ, and Christ should reign in my heart through the Spirit and by the Word.
But do I choose what I believe? Yes, insofar as we are called to reject false teaching and abide in truth and in good teaching, to hold fast to the tradition/teaching of the Apostles, to earnestly contend for the faith one and for all delivered, to have ears to hear. To turn daily to Christ, to call out daily to the Lord, to repent, to hear the Good News, to obey the Commandments, and to walk in accordance with the Holy Spirit.
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I wanted to add this addendum to what I wrote above:
We can add some practical caveats, obviously each and every individual has a very different set of life circumstances, and people cannot know things they cannot know, and cannot believe things they have never been exposed to. I cannot know that the earth orbits around the sun except that I am taught this, and/or exposed to the material evidence of it; in the same way we are limited to knowing what we are exposed to and taught in our religious communities. So it is never some kind of total or unconditional freedom to choose what to believe; it is always a conditional freedom based on the ordinary limits of human knowledge and experience. Which is also why there is always the imperative for the Church to be faithful in the transmission of Christian teaching, and why defending the true faith, confessing the faith together, is always important. That it’s not just me by myself, but rather the corporate life of Christian community, both local and universal.
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Even if right now you feel only silence, the Holy Spirit continues to speak and calls all who will listen. Scripture assures us that the Spirit is actively at work in the world, drawing sinners to Himself and making Himself known.
Jesus promised in John 14:26 that the Spirit of truth παρακαλέσει — will counsel, teach, and remind, continuing to speak into the hearts of those willing to receive Him.
The fact that you may not perceive His voice now does not mean He has ceased to speak or that you cannot know Him. The Spirit’s work is persistent and gracious, patiently wooing every seeking soul.
Romans 8:16 says τὸ πνεῦμα αὐτοῦ συμμαρτυρεῖ τῷ πνεύματι ἡμῶν — “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit,” confirming the reality of God’s presence to those who open their hearts.
It is possible to respond to the Spirit’s voice today, even if before it seemed silent. The invitation remains open, and the Spirit’s presence can be experienced by those who earnestly seek Him.
So rather than seeing silence as final, consider it a call to deeper openness, trusting that the Spirit still speaks and that knowing Him is not beyond your reach.
Johann.
Yes, @Johann.
I hear you!
You testify of this reality in your life well. I appreciate the transparency.
Well spoken brother! Preach this in all your giftedness and effort. Great!
Got it. I understand you. You had said:
So I get your carefull clarification. I actually did not assume otherwise.
You be YOU! You are a unique, and indispensible member of The Body Of Christ. We are not all the same member… (preaching to the proverbial choir), so NO push back from me.
Stay faithful
Much love
KP
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I LOVE to read these testimonies. Thank you for sharing yours!
kP
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