History chat with HistoryProf

Among the most fascinating (to me) eras of American history, was actually the pre-American period. When folks were feeling oppressed and quite persecuted primarily for religious principles, but also simply related to what they considered an out of control government and system of rule. They wanted out and America became the answer-- truly, the promised land, where freedom and opportunity would replace their oppression and despair.

Yet Puritans oppressed Native people and murdered groups like Quakers.

Records of conversions were not kept as they are today, but most but not all historians agree that this new form of salvation that was preached led to many adherents and the birth of new denominations - and was the final nail in the coffin of Puritanism.

We cannot overestimate the impact of both Awakenings on Protestantism.

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It was a crazy time. That whole “Great Awakening” one could argue was a swift boat down the river into troubled water. Spiritism was everywhere and everybody had a vision to share-- from Ellen White, to Joseph Smith and so many others. When we think of Quaker and Kellogg, we might think of cereal, but they were having visions and going into trances.

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The Cult of Mathias
Mormonism
Shakers,Quakers, Adventism

The “burnt over” district in NY.

The Amana Cult and the Oneida Cult. A kitchen full of cults.

Christianity changed dramatically. So much do that people think our views on salvation and church are what they were in New Testament times.

Or people hold up puritans as models of the faith. They were actually models of extreme legalism and societal control.

Fun fact: Sojourner Truth was tried for murder when she had been in the Matthias cult. She was acquitted

And half of them defended owning slaves as a Biblical command.

Ben Franklin considered George Whitfield to be a huckster.

Richard Nixon was a very good and devious poker player. He won a great deal during his tenure in the Navy, and other officers could not figure out how he did it.

Kellog was later on (the cereal guy)

He wasn’t always observant… but he was a good listener. :rofl:

Recording devices tend to help :grin:

@Historyprof this question popped into my head today.
Would the United States of America, existing as a constitutional republic, ever have happened if the Protestant Reformation didn’t occur first? My gut says it probably wouldn’t have, but I defer to the opinion of an expert.

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The Reformation certainly influenced concepts that inspired elements of America, particularly separation of church and state. Puritans wanted freedom from religion for themselves, but did not offer that same freedom to others. Jefferson and other founding fathers cleared that up. Equal standing under the law for all religions.

The single factor was lack of representation on Parliament in a country the colonists had no emotional bond to, the original colonists being long dead. Taxes in particular were irksome.

British Colonies were either for profit private companies, or crown colonies like Georgia.
Would colonies still have been established ? Yes. Would the nation have sprang up? Probably not due to the religious chokehold the crown had on religion before the Reformation.

This is of course, speculation on my part. Good thinking Gentle!

References: Jeffersons Notes on the Colony of Virginia

Washington’s letter to the Synagogue

Various histories of Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.

By the way, this is why historians are highly concerned by the Rise of Christian Nationalism.

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Great response. Thanks @Historyprof.

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Oh, I meant to add that philosophers like of the time greatly influenced the Founding Fathers. Locke, Smith, and others are heavily reflected in the formation of our government and the constitution. Folks like Locke had lived under religious oppression in Europe.

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Weird fact: Hitler was a vegetarian, tea totaler, non smoker, and was extremely polite to women. His belief that Jews were a subhuman species, however, led to the deaths of millions. The Jewish population in Europe has never recovered.

More surprising to me is that Hitler was a very competent artist. I’ve seen his work criticized as nothing special by art critic types, but he was certainly technically competent.

For anyone interested in the burnt-over district of upstate NY, where I once lived, I highly recommend the scholarly book UPSTATE CAULDRON ($32 for the Kindle version, but worth it). The religious history of that region, from well-before the Revolution to the mid-1800s, is so bizarre as to defy explanation. The only survivors are Mormonism, Spiritualism (just barely), and the JW and SDA as progeny of the Millerites.

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