We are in NO MAN’S land when we cling to experience outside of scripture. God’s Word has been given to us to know whether something is of God and from God or not. God does not make people do things like some of these supporters claim He does…it is fake
I do truly believe that if God chooses, of course, you can be “slain in the Spirit” or “Speak in tongues.” As an actual language. Not some Gooney googoo stuff. But I feel that if these are real, and for all as some claim, all would receive and experience these things. No?
Peter
[quote=“PeterC, post:148, topic:8200”]
I do truly believe that if God chooses, of course, you can be “slain in the Spirit” or “Speak in tongues.”
[/quote] Speaking in tongues is Biblical…but slain in the spirit is not
I am still in the Land of the Lord, not majoring on experiences, but accepting most if they do not go against Biblical truth including the Lordship of the Lord Jesus. You would be majoring on these experiences and denying God can use or send them, while I am majoring on the encounter with God that each event in all about.
l
They are available, but not likely unless they are taught or the person knows of another who has encountered God this way and is suggestible to such an experience. This probably is all unconscious, but that is where God often moves
I am talking about in our present day. Of course, originally. God just brought these experiences due to His own divine will. There was no need for human influence.
That is how I see it to be truthful. In psychology and marketing, this is called “Social Proof.” It’s the idea that when people are uncertain about how to behave, they look to those around them to determine the “correct” or “appropriate” action. Example: If you see a crowd of people looking up at the sky, you will likely feel an almost physical pull to look up too.
Then you also have the “Mimetic Desire.” If the “something” people are doing involves wanting or buying into a specific objective, it might be “Mimetic Desire.” This theory suggests that we don’t actually know what we want, so we imitate the desires of others. We want the same gifts, speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, because we see others doing it and wanting them.
Peter
I try to keep an open mind, but admit I’m skeptical and its probably because I’ve never had that experience. However, a Paster I admire did have this experience once and he was more skeptical than me. He was ministering to a group of Pentecostal women who believed that the baptism of the Spirit was accompanied by speaking in tongues. He didn’t speak in tongues, but he was a gifted teacher of the Word. During his teaching he was slain in the spirit (as they call it) and he described it as ‘the biggest skeptic in the room went down like a ton of bricks”. It was a one time experience for him.
The Bible does mention a few times where people fell at the feet of Jesus as though dead. Daniel was one. John was another. (Eze 1:28, Daniel 8:17-18, 10:7-9, Matt 17:6, Rev 1:17) are a few examples. Whether that is the same thing or not, I don’t know. The devil is a counterfeiter. He can’t create anything and he does counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit. That’s why we must test every spirit. My thinking is that it’s sometimes a counterfeit because of how uneasy it makes me feel at times and because of what else is going on. But sometimes it is the Holy Spirit and its up to me to discern what’s behind it.
I try to be careful when someone shares their spiritual experience with me, especially if its something I’ve never experienced. As long as it doesn’t contradict the Word, I keep an open mind without making a judgement as to whether its right or wrong. It isn’t necessary that I judge what they experienced. The Word; both old and new testament, is filled with spiritual experiences given by God to His people for a purpose. I’ve had spiritual experiences that I share with just a few because I know how quickly and easily others can judge it.
True, Sometimes we copy or mimic others all but t other times we have the direct revelation from God and respond to Him with all our hearts, minds and bodies without reference to other people. Direct revelation from God we can’t really influence. It is God and the person His Spirit is moving on. There is a danger of duplicating the person’s reactions to God, but we preach against that. Each person needs to respond to God in his own way without considering how so and so did. When Paul gave us this list of 9 spirituals it was just a sample of all He might give to the church to bring in His Kingdom on earth. The truth that is essential is that He is Lord and He changes hearts for His own glory and that he works within the Body of Christ to demonstrate his Gospel.
The gift of being able to cast out demons is not listed by Paul. Maybe this because it might be included in healings or miracles, but something happens within certain believers to inspire faith to take authority over a demon in someone, and this kind of anointing does not happen to others. Not just any Christian should get involved in deliverance. It takes a special gift, although we know that theoretically we all have the authority to cast out devils in the Name of Jesus, we do not all feel this drive and anointing to do so. God works with the human personalities that He has to get all that He wants done in His church and on the field of mission outside the church.
As someone who is on the one hand, a pretty logic-fact-orientated person; and on the other a deeply emotional and creative person. I don’t know that the whole left brain/right brain dichotomy really actually means anything. I think we’re all a mix of the two.
When I attend Mass (Lutheran) it’s not left-brain or right-brain. It’s the Christ-centeredness of it. I am entering into the Holy of Holies, and I am in awe.
I totally understand what you are saying. I attended a “Blues Brothers” style church. If you know, you know. The Pastor came up and slapped me on the head. I was expecting to feel, well, something. I have seen all these people fall, jump around, etc. I was excited. I waited.. I got? Nothing. I felt nothing. The Pastor looked me in the eye and said: “The devil wants you too.”
I do believe in the Gifts.
“There are different kinds of gifts. But it is the same Holy Spirit who gives them. There are different kinds of work to be done for Him. But the work is for the same Lord. There are different ways of doing His work. But it is the same God who uses all these ways in all people.
The Holy Spirit works in each person in one way or another for the good of all. One person is given the gift of teaching words of wisdom. Another person is given the gift of teaching what he has learned and knows. These gifts are by the same Holy Spirit. One person receives the gift of faith. Another person receives the gifts of healing. These gifts are given by the same Holy Spirit. One person is given the gift of doing powerful works. Another person is given the gift of speaking God’s Word. Another person is given the gift of telling the difference between the Holy Spirit and false spirits. Another person is given the gift of speaking in special sounds. Another person is given the gift of being able to tell what these special sounds mean. But it is the same Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, who does all these things. He gives to each person as He wants to give.” 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
I do not believe only one person, or every person, receives all the gifts. I do not believe a child of God is a Jedi. Being able to accomplish anything with their special powers. So yes, I am just as skeptical of anyone who says, “I have the gift of healing, prophecy, or tongues, with the interpretation of the same tongues,” as I am skeptical of anyone who said the speak to the dead or see the future. Like you, though, I try not to judge the validity of the child of God making the claim.
Peter
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”The demon said, “I know Jesus. I know about Paul. But who are you?” Acts 19:15
That is not something I would take lightly. Look around. I mentioned this before, uh, somewhere, but have you ever watched a video of one of these street preachers being confronted? These people are either insane or possessed. They have, in some cases, totally mutilated their own bodies, deny anything holy, and either scream. Nothing. Just scream, or they literly start barking. Sad really.
Peter
Absolutely! I am talking about some people being more sensitive to the emotional side of life than the logical/rational side. Some may get little from a sermon, but get an amazing amount from the icons (art) or music. All of it is in view of honoring and worshipping God in Spirit and truth.
I too am reticent to say that “a person has a certain gift”. I would prefer to say that “a person is often used in a certain gift”. The gifts are given to the church, not to individuals. Certain people have more experience in showing a gift but that gift that they show or manage is not theirs. It belongs to the church, and God can use another person some time. We can be used in a gift, but we do not cling to one like it is a ability that we own.
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Some people who think they have a deliverance ministry possibly need delivering themselves sometimes.
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There is usually a verse(s) for any strange belief people hold. So, said my Bible teacher in College.
Just my opinions here… A persistent problem with any kind of outward manifestation is it doesn’t indicate or guarantee inward change and Christlike growth. In fact, in practice there’s typically a disconnection from what matters most. It’s therefore tempting to suggest we don’t need it.
If we work our way carefully through Bible teaching on how gatherings should be and what local church leaders should focus on most, it’s hard to miss the emphasis on edification and sound doctrine.
A local body should focus on maturely walking in the Spirit, overcoming the works of the flesh and stepping away from the ways of the world, putting on Christ, taking off the old man, moral and sexual purity, gathering together and loving one another selflessly, drawing near to God and resisting the devil, being grounded in spiritually nourishing Bible truth that trains us, corrects us, equips us. And so on.
I experienced first-hand the excesses of the “charismatic movement” through most of the 80s. I saw many fall to the floor after having hands laid on them. It was messy at times. Were lives changed? Did the body grow? Were people more Christlike, prayerful and hungry for righteousness? Generally I saw no lasting signs of it.
Outward signs of every kind were never an indication of a person’s spiritual maturity or growth in Christ. They certainly weren’t valuable for the growth of the local body I attended for 7 years. Not in any lasting context I can honestly remember. I’m not alone in these views.
Looking back I personally don’t know what “being slain in the Spirit” ever contributed long-term to a productive, Spirit-filled life. In my view, such occurrences contributed nothing of lasting value to any life lived by faith and to a unified body that walked in God’s will.
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Amen! I know, I know, it may be the cynic in me, but anytime I see someone “Making a scene of worship,” Be it slain in the spirit, on their knees crying, or anything else that calls attention to them, I see this passage in my mind.
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 6:1
And
"Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Matthew 6:2-6
I know people can praise and worship in many ways, but where is the line?
Peter
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Tillman, I have seen and heard both “tongues” and being “slain…” faked. Oh! And that dancing thang.
That is a fascinating, deeply insightful question. I believe the short answer is yes, absolutely. From both a psychological standpoint and a theological one, someone can absolutely treat the “feeling” of the Holy Spirit like a high, turning church into a place to chase a regular spiritual fix
Let’s refer to this phenomenon as “spiritual gluttony” or emotionalism. It occurs when someone becomes enamored with the feelings associated with God and “spiritual things,” rather than developing a relationship with God Himself. Feelings can also be manipulated by the enemy.
They can corrupt the Word and lead even seemingly “good” people away from salvation. The pursuit of intense spiritual experiences, while potentially uplifting, can become a trap if it overshadows a genuine relationship with God and a commitment to His teachings. It is essential to discern whether our actions are motivated by a desire for emotional gratification or a sincere wish to serve and follow Christ.
“The Fix” from a neuroscientific perspective, our brains don’t distinguish heavily between the source of a massive dopamine hit. High-energy worship environments are brilliantly designed to move us. They combine deeply emotional, swelling music, which triggers the brain’s reward centers. A powerful sense of community and shared energy that releases oxytocin, the bonding hormone. Compelling, passionate speaking.When you experience that collective euphoria, your brain floods with feel-good chemicals. It feels transcendent and beautiful, and worse, holy, and it is very easy for the brain to crave that exact chemical cocktail again next Sunday.
But it is a church, so is there really a danger of “Spiritual Gluttony?” I love this. Check this out. The classic Christian mystic St. John of the Cross wrote extensively about this in the 16th century. "The Dark Night of the Soul (specifically Book 1, Chapters 1 through 7), written in the late 16th century (around 1578–1579)
He warned that beginners in faith often develop an addiction to spiritual sweetness. When people suffer from this, they only want to do things that make them feel good. If a church service doesn’t give them “goosebumps,” or if a prayer feels dry, they assume something is wrong with the church, or wrong with their faith. They become consumers of an experience rather than participants in a relationship.
“Feeling God” vs. following God. Theology teaches that the Holy Spirit’s primary job isn’t to give us a spiritual high; it’s to produce “fruit.” Things like patience, kindness, humility, and self-control. True spiritual growth is not dependent on the right lighting, music, and emotional atmosphere. So “How did that service make me feel?” is the wrong question. We should focus outward: “How can I serve others this week?”
The “Dark Night” as a cure. Some argue that God intentionally allows the emotional feelings to fade after a while precisely to break this “addiction.” When the goosebumps disappear, a person is forced to ask tough questions. “Do I actually love God, or do I just love the way God makes me feel?” It’s like moving from the honeymoon phase of a marriage into real, everyday love. The butterflies might not be there every morning, but the commitment runs much deeper. It is an incredibly thin line to walk, because those beautiful, emotional moments are a gift. They just make a terrible anchor for a long-term faith, and a terrible judge as to what is actually holy and just.
Peter