I could not agree with you more here. Your assumption that I “prefer traditional services dominated perhaps by the preacher doing all the work” is incorrect. I’m sorry that I was not clear about that. I know what you mean by your reference to 1Cor. 14:26, being an expression of normal Christian gathering. I agree. I too would like to see more meetings like it. (I personally don’t think of Christians gathering as “a service”. Please understand.) To your first point, my objection to the idea that we “allow the Holy Spirit His freedom” is only semantics I think. I understand what you mean by it now. It is what I would call “yielding to The Holy Spirit”, but essentially we are talking about the same idea. Again, sorry if I was unclear.
What I mean to say is that if God makes it happen, God makes it happen. We are not told what to do if the Holy Spirit causes us to fall or causes anything else. It is what happens to some people at certain times when they are confronted by the Holy Spirit. There is no one standing by saying “Now you must fall.” I is more of a reaction. Superior power over inferior power.
I can come along later and analyze the fact and presume this or that about the person or this or that (for instance) about God. Why does the person fall? Was s/he pushed or otherwise overcome? Or was the person needing or wanting to fall? I am not in this case the one who fell, so I cannot know absolutely what happened here. I can praise God if the result of it was good. If the result in the person’ life was not good, like if s/he fell and hurt themself, I can be sorry and help the person. Perhaps analysis has it’s limits.
The OP’s question was “is it Biblical” and the clear answer to that is "No. This phenomenon is not found in the Bible.
You say, it is however a valid expression of The Holy Spirit, and I have nothing to say about that, except it has never happend to me.
Yea Warriorbride!!! You are more the experiencer of these things, whereas I am more the leader of meetings where these things have happened. I explain for the benefit of non pentecostals but my background is as a Pentecostal. I need your testimonials as often I can’t know about what I explain unless I have more experience. I am more the theologian admittedly than you seem to be. Thank God for you, my sister.
Yes, it can be very dangerous.We are talking about something that is practiced in Christian Churches that is called “a Move of God.” A moving of the Spirit is not equated to eating pizza, driving a car, using a phone, or to watching television, or do the neutron dance
.We are talking about whether something is the Holy Ghost or not. I do agree that some confuse various forms of altered states for God. There are a lot of spirits, including familiar spirits. There is a genuine experience in the Holy Ghost that lines up with the word of God. Not the garble-eee -goop the charlatan TV preachers are pushing.
Oh, good heavens. I thought that idiotic expression had passed into merciful oblivion 50 years ago. Some turns of phrase are best forgotten, and need to be stomped down the memory hole every time they reappear.
Last time I checked, GOD’S Spirit makes us alive in Christ. Somebody ELSE shows up “to steal, to KILL, and to destroy.”
Many people do give witness to this. Something happens within them that stirs up their emotion and the naturally weep. Could this not be the love and power of the Holy Spirit?
I agree that many preachers that believe in slaying in the Spirit are charlatans and they teach a twisted gospel. But I cannot say that God does not still use means that are not biblical to stir up people to see the need for their repentance and for their call out to God to save them. I will not limit God to always moving by any tradition. He is free to use unorthodox experiences to bring people to Him.
I recognize that somehow you have come to accept that “the love and power of The Holy Spirit” MIGHT “stir ones’ emotions”, and MAY “cause them to weep”. You also accept that The Holy (perfect) Spirit of God MIGHT (could) cause one to fall down into a state of syncope. Even though you experience these feelings, and accept that these events may be divine, you have not provided any scriptural evidence or scriptural precedent to suggest God may behave in this way. There is nothing in what we know of God that might even hint at Him stirring up His own children into an emotional ecstasy, causing His own dear barin’s to weep, or impressing on them a weight so heavy that they lose consciousness. We do not see anywhere in the pages of scripture this kind of manifestation toward His beloved as an expression of His love or in a display of His power; it is not found anywhere in His revelation of Himself.
(Note: You and I have already discussed several fearful encounters with the Holiness of God, found in scripture, that had a uniquely profound and acute effect on the particular subject of God’s revelation, at a particular event, for a particular reason, but nothing even slightly-resembling the kind of experience you are describing. Their gross dissimilarities far outweigh their minor similarities)
We do see much convincing evidence, and are presented with ample precedent of God acting toward His beloved; restoring wholeness, raising up faith-filled disciples, settling stormy emotions, instilling divine calm, allaying anxiety and fear, providing supernatural peace, speaking softly and tenderly as if nursing babes in Christ; in short, we have much scripture from which we discern The Divine Goodness in endless mercy, strong understanding of our patient, gentle, loving, Shepherd leading His sheep by still waters and restoring anxious souls.
I am not discounting your personal experience, and I am not passing judgement on your personal practices, but I am saying I have not experienced what you have, and I cannot find any leading to seek this phenomenon, or engage in these practices. You said: “Could this not be the love and power of the Holy Spirit?”. From the intimacy I have with The Holy Spirit, and from what He has taught me, I’d have to say, no.
I think we unconsciously seek our own comfort or authentication by saying that a spiritual phenomenon has to happen only in a way we see it in scripture. I think good can happen without certain features that are biblical and it is still of God, and He can use it. It does not have to be in a way that I have experienced it before or in a way that it happened in the Bible.
Tongues is a vehicle of God’s grace . Falling or walking the aisle and shaking the preacher’s hand or any other experience God can use to bring His grace to you.,
I understand, and accept your caution that I may be short sighted, unconsciously seeking my “own comfort” by limiting God to acting only in ways that I read in scripture. I hear you, and your point is well received. I don’t believe that is what I’m doing, but I appreciate you bringing your thoughts out into the open.
A careful reading of what I said should not lead you to think I am suggesting that God will only perform acts that He has already performed as recorded in scripture, because I am not saying that. I admit that every act of God, especially those that we read in scripture, at one point, was the first time He did it. I’m sure God does many things, even in our age, that may be unprecedented in Scripture, I agree.
What will NOT change from God’s revelation of Himself, that we read in scripture up to today, is His very heart, the manifest expression of His being, His openly revealed character, which is in accord with His divine purpose to bring many sons to Glory. It is this character of God to which I was referring. We only know God’s character (His divine heart) by what He has revealed of Himself in The Bible. Knowing His heart is what brings us to cry out “Abba”. Every manifestation of God’s character today will not (cannot) be different from the immutable character He has revealed about Himself in the scriptures.
It is this heart of God that I see misrepresented in the phenomenon you are defending. In fact, it appears to be an expression contrary to the divine character, the way He has revealed Himself in the scriptures. If we detach personal experience from the heart of God as revealed in the scriptures, we are unprotected from attributing things to a movement of God that He has not actually initiated. It is unwise to deny what God has revealed of Himself, and it is equally unwise to attribute something to God that He has not.
If I saw that a person was being played with by the experiences they have and getting confused or becoming immoral, I would not recommend those experiences. If on the other hand the experiences cause a person to be more sure of their relationship with the Lord, more confident in His Lordship and love, I would not take those experiences away from him/her.
I guess it is like testing the spirit. Does the experience allow Jesus Christ to be exalted as Lord and glorify the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I would allow it unless it denies that Jesus came in the flesh or that He alone is our Savior, or does not even speak about our God, etc. I would not encourage those experiences that seem to be showy or titillating, etc. or vain.
I hear you. I surely understand your concern. I understand how you “allow” or “disallow” some practice based on either your own opinion, or the opinion of the practitioner. Your judgement is based in their word that the practice causes them to “be more sure of their relationship with The Lord”, or they felt their experience “allowed” Jesus Christ to be exalted as Lord and “glorified” the Father. I can understand why you would feel this way.
In the absence of indisputable divine witness indicating to us How God Himself needs to be worshiped; especially if it is in a way that is completely untethered from The Revealed Word of God, we are building a practice without a foundation. Bear with me. I’m sure the ancient Canaanites, and some ethnic Jews claimed they were getting closer to God by participating in sacred prostitution, as devotion to Ashtoreth, and associated rites, since those practices were quite common throughout the ancient Mediterranean. I’m sure the Welsh Sin-eaters (17th–19th centuries) claimed a higher level of devotion when a piece of bread and sip of ale, placed on a corpse, was eaten to symbolically ingest the deceased’s sins, ensuring the soul’s safe passage to heaven. We know there have been more than a few groups bearing the name of Christianity, claiming deeper communion with The Christ was achieved through the use of psychedelics and mind-altering drugs. This list is unfortunately not short. I am not suggesting anything like these extreme examples to be indicative of you, or your Christian culture, but I mention it only to illustrate that a claim of spiritual ecstasy, untethered to the revealed Word of God, can (and probably does) come from sources other than The Holy Spirit, no matter what it feels like. In other words, the claim of spiritual elevation itself, apart from a sure scriptural witness, is not testimonial of God, and does not insure the practice is either righteous devotion, or an authentic manifestation of The Holy One.
I make no judgement about your personal practice; I am unqualified to do so. From my perspective, if God manifests Himself in a manner He previously said He would, I, in faith, can accept that without qualification or doubt. If someone says “Look, this is a manifestation of God”, but it is NOT in a manner God said he would manifest Himself, it has no apostolic or scriptural witness, and it has no direct connection to the purpose and character of God, I am compelled to withhold judgement.
I hear what you are saying too. I guess you are saying that a practice or experience must be the same as a biblical precedent to be authentic or blessed of God, and I am saying that God is not limited to biblical precedent in outward signs, actions or physical associations as long as, in the event, the person is ministered to inwardly and inspired to love and obey the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ more and to worship Him more sincerely, or to give glory to Jesus by name.
Ah, well, not exactly, but I sure do hear your “peaceful” heart, your generous spirit, your accepting demeanor, and your openess to all that God has for your and your congregation. These are very commendable and honoring to our God and Father. I appreciate you and your peaceful communication style.
I really can’t say much more without just reiterating, and so I won’t subject you to any repeat rhetoric except to say God is unchanging, immutable, and in Him is no shadow of turning. How He revealed Himself to the ancients, and how He inspired writers to record His attributes is our infalible guide for Who He is, what is important to Him. From His own declaration we understand how He will manifest Himself to His beloved. If we depart from what He has said, and chose another way, we depart from honoring Him in the way he has disclosed. I do not insist that God will only do the same things (acts) as He has done in the past, but I do say He will not abandon what He has said about Himself, and will not manifest Himself in ways contrary to what He has said.
I appreciate that you are convinced that persons are being “ministered to inwardly”, “inspired to love and obey the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ more” and are seeking to “worship Him more sincerely”. These are wonderful testimonies.