Jesus is Gods image-An image is never the real thing. That is how they could see the Father in Jesus. The image.
The one who is true is called God, not Jesus. You twist it. Yes one must go through Jesus to get to the Father to do this daily-John 4:22-24. Trinity religions stop at Jesus and do not do John 4:22-24
This is incorrect, but since you are a JW your mind is set.
…and this is incorrect, JW’s have a very low view of Messiah.
Jehovah’s Witnesses (JWs) hold a view of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) that differs significantly from traditional Christian orthodoxy, which is often described as a “low” Christology because it denies the deity of Christ. While JWs believe in Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and the ransom sacrifice for humanity, they do not believe he is Almighty God or part of a Trinity.
J.
1 Like
Just wrong. No, you are just making stuff up. Jesus said, see me, see God. He did not say, " See me, I’m the image of God. The phrase image of God is a man-made term in the attempt to explain what this means.
It was Paul, as a matter of fact. The Greek word Paul used is εἰκών (eikōn), from which we get the modern word “icon.” In the ancient world, an eikōn was more than just a painting; it was a representation that carried the authority of the original. For example, a king’s image on a coin was his presence in the marketplace. By using this word, Paul was saying that if you want to know what the invisible God is like, you look at the visible Jesus.
Peter
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Col 1:15-16–Jesus is Gods image.
Can you elaborate a bit more why you think good works is going to save us @Servant1 ?
Paul’s primary statement occurs in Colossians.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.[1]
(~Colossians 1:15)
The Greek phrase is ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου.
εἰκών
noun nominative feminine singular
“image, visible manifestation, representation”
τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου
genitive construction meaning “of the invisible God”
The adjective ἀόρατος means “invisible” or “unseen.” Paul’s logic is straightforward. Because God is invisible, the Son is the εἰκών, the visible manifestation through whom the invisible God becomes knowable. The term does not imply inferiority but revelation.
Paul immediately explains why the Messiah can function as this manifestation.
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.[2]
(~Colossians 1:16)
The clause ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα contains the aorist passive verb ἐκτίσθη (“were created”) with τὰ πάντα (“all things”) as the object. Grammatically the Messiah is not included among created things; rather all created things come into existence through Him. This places Him on the creator side of the Creator–creation distinction.
Paul uses a similar conceptual framework when he speaks about the divine nature revealed in the Messiah.
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.[3]
(~Colossians 2:9)
The Greek clause is ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς.
πλήρωμα
noun nominative neuter singular
“fullness, totality”
θεότητος
genitive noun meaning “deity, divine nature”
κατοικεῖ
present active indicative from κατοικέω
“dwells, resides permanently”
Paul therefore states that the entire fullness of deity permanently dwells in the Messiah bodily. The language goes far beyond the idea of a mere representative or symbolic image.
Paul also describes the Messiah using the concept of form, which is closely related to the concept of image.
Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.[4]
(~Philippians 2:6)
The phrase ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων contains the noun μορφή, meaning form or essential outward expression of inner nature.
μορφῇ
dative feminine singular
“form, outward expression of inner reality”
ὑπάρχων
present participle meaning “existing” or “continuing to exist”
Paul therefore describes the Messiah as existing in the form of God, meaning the outward expression of divine nature. The following phrase ἴσα θεῷ (“equality with God”) clarifies the sense.
Another important Pauline expression appears in 2 Corinthians.
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[5]
(~2 Corinthians 4:4)
Again Paul uses εἰκών, but here it appears within the phrase τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τῆς δόξης τοῦ Χριστοῦ. The Messiah is the visible expression of divine glory.
Closely related conceptually is the term χαρακτήρ, though used by the author of Hebrews rather than Paul. The word deepens the same idea of visible expression.
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature.[6]
(~Hebrews 1:3)
The noun χαρακτήρ refers to the precise imprint made by a stamp or engraving tool. It denotes exact correspondence rather than a superficial resemblance.
Paul’s theology of salvation also presupposes that believers are conformed to the Messiah precisely because He is the true image of God.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.[7]
(~Romans 8:29)
The phrase συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος means “conformed to the image.” Believers are restored to the divine image through union with the Son who perfectly manifests that image.
Thus when all the Pauline language is examined together the conclusion becomes clear.
The Messiah is called the image of God because He makes the invisible God visible.
He exists in the form of God, expressing divine nature.
The fullness of deity dwells in Him bodily.
He is the agent of creation, through whom all things exist.
Therefore the term “image” does not mean a lesser imitation. In Paul’s theology it refers to the visible manifestation and perfect expression of the divine reality, which is why the apostles proclaim that through the crucified and risen Messiah the invisible God is revealed and His righteousness is given to those who are united to Him.
J.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. - ESV ↩︎
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. - ESV ↩︎
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. - ESV ↩︎
Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. - ESV ↩︎
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - ESV ↩︎
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature. - ESV ↩︎
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. - ESV ↩︎
Let’s start with John 1:1. In Greek it says, Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος… καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Notice that John uses the imperfect verb ἦν-the Word already was, continuously existing, before creation. He is not part of creation. And when John says θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, he is not saying “a god.” The absence of the article makes the word qualitative, describing the nature of the Logos. So John is saying the Word shares the very essence of God. Then verse 14: ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο. The Word became flesh. That is incarnation.
JW: But our translation says “the Word was a god.”
The Greek grammar doesn’t allow that. If John wanted to say “a god,” he could have used an indefinite construction. Instead, he is stressing quality. The Logos is fully divine, and then He becomes flesh. That is more than being an image, it is God Himself entering human history.
Look at Philippians 2:6–7. Paul says Christ Jesus, ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων. The word μορφῇ means essential form, not outward appearance. Aristotle uses it to mean the defining nature of a thing. So Paul is saying Jesus exists in the very nature of God. He did not cling to equality with God, but humbled Himself. If He were a creature, there would be no equality to relinquish.
JW: But “form” could mean likeness, not essence.
That is not just outward appearance; He truly became a servant. So when Paul says μορφῇ θεοῦ, he means essence. Christ truly shares God’s nature.
Hebrews 1:3 says the Son is ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως. Charaktēr means exact imprint, like a stamp that perfectly reproduces the die.
Hypostasis means underlying reality or substance. So the Son is the precise expression of God’s very being. He is not a lesser copy.
And the text adds: φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ-He upholds all things by His powerful word. That is divine prerogative.
JW: But isn’t He just reflecting God’s glory?
He is the ἀπαύγασμα-the radiance itself, not a reflection. The light that shines out from the source. That is stronger than saying He resembles God.
Colossians 1:15–17 says Christ is the εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου. Eikōn means visible manifestation. He makes the invisible God known. Then Paul says He is πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως. That does not mean first created.
In the LXX, “firstborn” often means preeminent heir. And Paul explains: ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα. By Him all things were created. If He created all things**, He cannot be part of creation.** He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Colossians 2:9 strengthens this: ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς. The fullness of deity dwells bodily in Him. Theotēs means the state of being God, not just divine qualities. Plērōma means fullness, totality. So the whole reality of God dwells in Christ in bodily form.
Thomas in John 20:28 says to Jesus, ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. My Lord and my God. Jesus accepts this confession. For a Jew, calling anyone “my God” would be blasphemy unless it were true.
The prophets foresaw this. Isaiah 9:6 calls the child to be born El Gibbor-Mighty God. The LXX renders Him “Messenger of Great Counsel,” but the Hebrew title remains.
And Isaiah 43:11 in the LXX says, ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν πλὴν ἐμοῦ σωτήρ. I am, and besides me there is no savior. Yet the NT repeatedly calls Jesus Savior. If Yahweh alone saves, and Jesus saves, then Jesus shares Yahweh’s identity.
So finally… Revelation 5:13–14 shows every creature worshipping both the One on the throne and the Lamb: τῷ καθημένῳ ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καὶ τῷ ἀρνίῳ. Worship is reserved for God alone. Yet Jesus receives it.
So when we look at μορφῇ, εἰκὼν, and χαρακτὴρ in their Greek context, they point to essence and substance, not mere outward image.
The NT writers are saying Jesus is God Himself, in the flesh, the eternal Logos who became man to save us.
You agree @Servant1 ?
J.
1 Like
Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it’s interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter’s salutations.
This is incorrect…
First consider the typical Pauline greeting.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.[1]
(~Romans 1:7)
The formula “grace and peace” (χάρις καὶ εἰρήνη) reflects a fusion of the Greek greeting χάρις (“grace”) and the Jewish greeting שָׁלוֹם (“peace”). Paul places the Father and the Son as the joint source of these blessings. The absence of the Spirit in the greeting does not imply exclusion from the Godhead; rather the greeting functions as a condensed theological formula identifying the source of redemptive grace.
However, Paul clearly includes the Holy Spirit in the same divine sphere elsewhere in his letters. The most explicit example is the Trinitarian benediction in 2 Corinthians.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.[2]
(~2 Corinthians 13:14)
The structure here is significant.
τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ – the Lord Jesus Christ
τοῦ θεοῦ – God (the Father)
τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος – the Holy Spirit
Each member of the triadic expression is placed in parallel grammatical structure. Paul assigns divine salvific roles to each: grace from the Son, love from the Father, fellowship from the Spirit. This is one of the clearest Trinitarian formulations in the New Testament.
Paul also places the Spirit alongside the Father and the Son in several other passages.
There are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.[3]
(~1 Corinthians 12:4–6)
Here Paul presents a threefold structure.
the Spirit
the Lord (Christ)
God (the Father)
Each is associated with divine activity within the church. The pattern demonstrates functional unity rather than hierarchical separation.
Another important passage occurs in Ephesians.
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.[4]
(~Ephesians 2:18)
The structure is again triadic.
through Him (Christ)
in one Spirit
to the Father
The entire experience of salvation is described as participation in the life of the Father through the Son in the Spirit.
Paul also attributes personal and divine characteristics to the Holy Spirit, which would be impossible if the Spirit were merely an impersonal force.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.[5]
(~Ephesians 4:30)
The verb “grieve” presupposes personhood. An impersonal force cannot be grieved. The Spirit also performs divine actions such as searching the depths of God.
For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.[6]
(~1 Corinthians 2:10)
The verb ἐραυνᾷ (“searches”) indicates cognitive activity. Paul then adds that no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Thus your argument that the Spirit cannot be divine because He is not included in every greeting misunderstands the nature of epistolary conventions and ignores the broader Pauline theology. Paul frequently speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit together in unified salvific activity.
The apostolic witness therefore presents a consistent pattern.
The Father is the source of salvation.
The Son accomplishes redemption through His death on the cross and His resurrection.
The Spirit applies that redemption to believers.
This triadic pattern appears repeatedly throughout Paul’s letters, showing that the Holy Spirit fully participates in the divine work even if the greeting formula itself remains stylistically concise.
J.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. - ESV ↩︎
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. - ESV ↩︎
There are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. - ESV ↩︎
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. - ESV ↩︎
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. - ESV ↩︎
For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. - ESV ↩︎
John 5:20
King James Version
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
That last verse tells you who Jesus is.
No one has to twist any thing- it says what it says
And this is where the Use of Jesus Christ vs. Christ Jesus…if translators kept it correct makes a difference @PeterC for speculative wise, we might see the exalted position, but one has to take time to study which is used …and the meaning of the reverse used.
John 5 is often considered a pivotal chapter for those re-evaluating the Jehovah’s Witness (JW) perspective, particularly concerning the deity of Jesus Christ, because it contains direct statements regarding Jesus’ equality with God, his authority to receive worship, and his role as the source of eternal life.
Many who leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses point to this chapter as a turning point because it contradicts core Watchtower doctrines that define Jesus as a created being (Michael the Archangel) rather than as God.
Here is why John 5 changes the view on being a Jehovah’s Witness:
-
Claiming Equality with God (John 5:18): The text states, “the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”. While JW theology teaches Jesus is lesser than Jehovah, this verse directly links his claim of divine sonship with a claim to be equal to God.
-
Worship and Honor of the Son (John 5:23): Jesus states that all should honor the Son “just as they honor the Father”. Mainstream Christianity interprets this as a command to worship Jesus equally with God. In contrast, Watchtower doctrine discourages worshipping Jesus, which causes a direct conflict with this scripture.
-
Jesus as the Source of Life (John 5:26): Jesus states, “For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” This implies divine authority to impart life, a role typically reserved for God alone in JW theology.
-
The Power of Resurrection (John 5:25, 28-29): Jesus claims authority to resurrect the dead. While Witnesses believe in the resurrection, this chapter highlights Jesus as the agent of resurrection who calls the dead, rather than just a witness to Jehovah’s power.
-
The Authority of Judgment (John 5:22): “For the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son.” This places Jesus as the final judge over humanity, requiring a level of authority that contrasts with the view of him being only a secondary angel.
Contrasting Interpretations:
-
Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret John 5 (and surrounding verses like 14:28) to mean Jesus is acting as God’s “Chief Representative” or Agent, doing only what Jehovah allows him to do.
-
Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently argue that “honoring the Son just as the Father” and “making himself equal to God” (5:18, 23) cannot be reconciled with the belief that Jesus is a created angel.
For many, John 5 provides scriptural evidence that Jesus is worthy of the same honor, worship, and reverence as Jehovah, prompting a shift away from the belief that Jesus is a lesser being
…and here…
…waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.[1]
(~Titus 2:13)
In the original Greek the phrase that is translated “our great God and Savior” (τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) literally places “God” (θεοῦ) and “Savior” (σωτῆρος) in direct parallel with the name Jesus Christ, affirming the deity of Christ and His gracious saving work together.
The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798.
Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names.
Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, theos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, sōtēr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule.
Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.
This grammatical principle has been tested and discussed for over 200 years, yet no persuasive exception has invalidated it.
The construction in Titus 2:13 therefore clearly identifies Jesus Christ as both God and Savior.
Other New Testament examples illustrating Sharp’s rule include “the God and Father” (2 Corinthians 1:3), “the Lord and Savior” (2 Peter 1:1), and similar structures.
“our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” Jesus is here unambiguously given the title of God!
The Caesars claimed similar titles (i.e., Ptolemy I). The terms “appearing” (which contextually relates to Christ’s Second Coming) and “great” are never used of YHWH.
Also, there is no article with “savior.” The syntax of Koine Greek supports this as a title for Jesus because there is only one article with both nouns, thus linking them together (see NET Bible).
Jesus is God (cf. Joh_1:1; Joh_8:57-58; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Php_2:6; 2Th_1:12; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_5:20). In the OT the Messiah (see Special Topic at 1Ti_1:1) was expected to be a divinely empowered person like the Judges. His deity surprised everyone (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM at 1Ti_2:5)!
Great God and our Saviour – Strict grammar would apply both God and Saviour to Jesus Christ.
God is Savior in Tit_1:3, Tit_2:10, Tit_3:4
Christ is Savior in Tit_1:4, Tit_3:6; cf. 2Pe_1:1.
J.
…waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. - ESV ↩︎
Jesus is Alpha and Omega- The Fist and the Last, The Beginning and the End…He is either God 100% or He is not ! He He came manifested in the flesh, but He was God IN Christ reconciling the world unto HIMSELF. On Calvary they crucified Him, His flesh - His earthlty nature, but not the other nature whice is divine and heavenly which rose again and He is FULLY God (100% Spirit) as He was before the incarnation.
Its recorded history fact-Catholicism created the trinity at their councils in the 4th century. Then mistranslated things to fit those false council teachings. Jesus was NEVER with Catholicism, satan was. Satan beat billions living now centuries ago. You best relook.
You are not here to be corrected regarding the errors in the teachings of the Kingdom Hall. Instead, you appear to be here simply to promote and repeat what you have been taught there.
Not good.
…and
…no, it is not historically accurate to say Catholicism “created” the Trinity in the 4th century. The doctrine of the Trinity was already present in the writings of early Christian theologians long before the councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381). Those councils did not invent the Trinity but clarified and defended it against heresies like Arianism.
What Actually Happened…
Early Christian Writings (1st–3rd centuries):
Church Fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD), Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), and Tertullian (c. 200 AD) already spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct yet divine. Tertullian even used the Latin word Trinitas to describe this reality.
Council of Nicaea (325 AD):
Convened to address Arianism, which denied the full divinity of the Son. The council affirmed that the Son is homoousios (“of the same essence”) with the Father. This was not a new invention but a defense of what Christians had already believed.
Council of Constantinople (381 AD):
Addressed those who denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit. The council affirmed the Spirit’s full deity, completing the formal articulation of the Trinity.
Misconception About “Creation” of the Trinity
Some critics argue the Trinity “did not exist until the late fourth century” because the councils gave it precise language.
In reality, the councils were codifying and clarifying beliefs already present in Scripture and early tradition. The Bible itself speaks of Father, Son, and Spirit in divine terms (e.g., Matthew 28:19; John 1:1; Acts 5:3–4).
The councils did not mistranslate Scripture to fit doctrine. Rather, they debated how best to express biblical teaching in philosophical and theological terms.
Why the Confusion Exists…
Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups often claim the Trinity was invented later to argue that it is unbiblical.
Historical nuance: The terminology (like homoousios) was developed in the 4th century, but the belief in Father, Son, and Spirit as divine was already widespread.
Translation issues: Your accusation of “mistranslation” usually refers to debates over passages like John 1:1. But mainstream scholarship affirms that traditional translations are consistent with Greek grammar.
So…
The Trinity was not created by Catholic councils in the 4th century. It was clarified and defended at those councils against heresies. The roots of Trinitarian belief go back to the New Testament and the earliest Christian writers. The councils gave precise language to what Christians had already confessed for centuries.
You want the links?
J.
100% fact=In EVERY translation on Earth, the teachings of Jesus back the JW,s all the way. Try learning them correctly. I attended trinity religions in my day–First one lied through their teeth and told me i was saved if i said 3 lines of prayer with the minister( baptist)-I was 100% one who worked iniquity( Matt 7:21-23) daily, thus he lied. I attended other ones as well–they teach very little of what Jesus teaches and most not even correctly. There is no division( 1 Cor 1:10) in Jesus 1 religion)-trinity religions = hundreds = a mass of confusion. A house divided will not stand–you can take it to the bank.
The JW,s are the only ones no part of this world. We aren’t mislead to cast votes for corrupt politicians which would be standing in opposition to cast votes for corruption. We aren’t mislead to partake off things from the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21) like found in world celebrations including Easter and Christmas. Trinitarians are mislead.
Uh, no, I disagree with you.
J.
Just showed you what you wrote is not 100% fact, but false…you want the links?
J.
So your question is Did God show Himself as Father, as Son and as Holyghost?
I started threads in trinity run sights with 7 or 8 teachings from Jesus, that are in every translation on Earth, i get banned, Why? Because those teachings prove the JW,s are correct and prove the trinity religions are false. They cant have that. Billions of dollars are at stake. So you can disagree, but you are in error, listening to those mislead like this-2Cor 4:4-2Cor 11:12-15) Always best to believe Jesus.