Love this.
God bless.
Peter
Well?
āAnd he called out, āFather Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.ā But Abraham said, āChild, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.ā Luke 16:24-26
Iām pretty sure it is a real place.
āThen he will say to those on his left, āDepart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.ā Matthew 25:41
Also, Jesus told the thief.
āAnd he said, āJesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.ā And he said to him, āTruly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.ā Luke 2342-43
Again, a real place. As for the second death? That is an interesting conversation. I will start a new topic on that.
Peter
to burst, your bubble hell is nothing more than the place were it is that the living put the dead.
It is clear that you have put some dedicated thought-energy into this topic. I appreciate that, and especially that you have proffered to share your thoughts with us (me).
From your writing, I sense the complexity you face of trying to precisely express an ambiguity; trying to make the incomprehensible comprehensible. The art of writing is a challenge to reduce abstract thoughts and emotions into black letters on a white page. The art of theology is the challenge to reduce The Eternal metaphysical reality into thoughts and emotions that are consumable and manageable by a mortal mind. Your attempt at wrangling an eternal metaphysical concept into printable language involves this double reduction, and most surely the abstract reality is strained and suffers loss in the process. Even so, I hear you, and I understand what you are attempting to demonstrate.
No one can describe the environment on surface of OGLE-2017-BLG-0364Lb, an exoplanet which supposedly resides in excess of 32,000 light-years distant from our earth, because no one has seen it or been there. Likewise, no one is expected to give accurate personal testimony of metaphysical places which have never been visited. We only truly know what we have been told by one who has, so we walk by faith, and not by sight, especially in this arena. Our challenge is to take what we have been told (Godās Testimony) and try to not add to, or take from His testimony. We are mortals, and a dangerous-beauty of our creation is the innate ability of our mind to fill-in-the-gaps where no information exists. Here caution must be exercised.
I agree with you here, in that you admit that the task is immensely difficult. (also about Ohio. Ohio is not Hell, it just feels that way sometimes).
With all of Godās testimony about the abode of the dead being a place, we cannot ignore the distinctive of āplaceā that He gives to it, even though, as you say, metaphysical places are surely something entirely foreign to physically bound mortal minds. Surely āeye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it ever entered into the mind of manā¦ā what awaits, but it just as surely, hell as a āplaceā cannot be dismissed as a fable. Surely hell is something yet unexperienced, and surely it is indescribable, but just as surely it must be real or God a liar.
I suppose neither of us will ever experience it, so we will never have eye-witness knowledge of Hell, but that is a conversation for the OSAS thread.
Thanks for your thoughts, and your erudite instruction.
KP
First, welcome to the community. So where do you get this idea from? Do you feel that Hell is just another word for the grave?
Peter
something thats really unfortunate is how pagan belief has made its way into what should be clear cut understanding. yes hell is simply another word that refers to the place the dead are put . the anguish of the place is knowing that we to will be put there when we die.
for the dead there is but one way to get out ,its by resurrection . Jesus did prove it could be done he did resurrect different people . iām as curious as anyone, as to how thats going to happen and when and how many at one time,will it be all over the earth or in one centralized place ?? can you even imagine the confusion if billions of people were resurrected on the same day . BTW you should expect to find that many of them will be naked.
I realize that there are those who argue this is not a Parable, I am of the Parable camp. Itās not that Gehennah is some literal pit across a ravine from Paradise. Itās a warning, not a geography lesson about supernal/infernal reality.
This begs the question, is the Garden of Eden (āParadiseā, in Hebrew: Gan-Eden, lit. āGarden of Edenā) across a literal chasm from Gehenna, or is it located in a literal third heaven?
Iād argue that location isnāt the point; in one sense Paradise is an impossibly vast chasm away from Gehenna; and in another sense it is nearness to God, a place to experience rest in Godāso both are true.
Yeah, I understand that the concept of a literal Hell of people suffering is a hard thing to accept. However, Jesus did talk about it more than anyone else in the Word.
Yes. It was done to show that He had the authority of death. It was for the Glory of God.
Not to get into the whole Pre-mid- post trib debate, you will not miss the return of Christ. But do not believe ANYONE who tells you they know when.
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.ā Matthew 24:36-39
However,
āSo, if they say to you, āLook, he is in the wilderness,ā do not go out. If they say, āLook, he is in the inner rooms,ā do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.ā Matthew24:26-27
As for some being naked? I have no idea.
Peter
The Garden of Eden is most definitely a real place. It was where God intended us to live in peace and in that sense, paradise. There was no sin. No sickness, no death. God was there with them.
āAnd they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, āWhere are you?ā And he said, āI heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.ā Genesis 3:8-10
You know the rest of the story. Man disobeyed God and got thrown out of the Garden. Now, of course, there are a lot of concepts, guesses, and claims as to where that really was, but there is no doubt it was a real place here on earth.
Yes, Hell is also a real place. Now, for finding it on a map? Of course not. Heaven and hell are spiritual realms. Different dimension, if you will. The flesh dies,
āBecause
āAll flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
But the word of the Lord endures forever.āNow this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.ā 1 Peter 1:24-25
When it comes time, we will leave this earth and head onward. Yes, they are both very real places.
Peter
the hell Jesus was referring to ,Gehenna . if you could In-vision a place were there was trash to burn and people kept putting more and more things that would burn. even perhaps dead bodies put there not by the jewās but the romanās . its a place of destruction even as the grave it also a place of destruction .
surprise ,hell is a small town in Michigan and BTW so is paradise .
consider that any clothing would of rotted away ,it is how it would be for any not buried in a casket ,as its done today .
Letās take a step back. Iām not referring (necessarily) to the Garden of Eden mentioned in Genesis where Adam and Eve were formed.
Gehenna is literally Ge-Hinnom (Gehenna is the Hellenized form), The Hinnom Valley. Paradise, or Paradeisos in Greek means āparkā or āgardenā, it comes from a Persian word and in 2nd Temple Jewish usage is used to refer to Gan-Eden āGarden of Edenā. In 2nd Temple Jewish thought there was also the idea that righteous Jews would go on to dwell with the patriarchs, thatās where āAbrahamās Bosomā or āAbrahamās Sideā comes from, to be with Abraham and the fathers of the Jewish people. Abrahamās Bosom is Paradise; i.e. āGan-Edenā in this eschatological sense.
When we see talk of āGehennaā it means āHinnom Valleyā but Jesus isnāt saying the wicked go to the literal valley outside of Old Jerusalem. The Hinnom Valley has a deep significance as the location where the cult of Molech would practice their horrible deeds, of human (child) sacrifice. So the Hinnom Valley became associated with death and fire. In the same way we probably shouldnāt assume that when Jesus and other 1st century Jews spoke of Paradise that they were speaking of the literal garden described in Genesis 2-3. They are using the imagery of Eden, in the same way they are using the imagery of the Hinnom Valley.
So this gets back to the point I was making: In Jesusā Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the rich man goes to Gehenna and the poor man Lazarus goes to Paradise, and Jesus describes an incredibly vast gulf or chasm separating the two. When St. Paul describes the experience of the man he once knew (many believe he is referring to himself) who was caught up into the third heaven, itās said this man beheld Paradise in the third heaven.
Is Paradise a place located a literal chasm away from a place called Gehenna?
Is Paradise a place located in a literal level of heavens?
If we are taking all this information and insisting on the most woodenly literal kind of interpretation, then we are left with contradictions and having to insist that the wicked are literally spending eternity in a valley that you and I could physically visit right now if we booked plane tickets to Jerusalem.
Hence why I spoke of āmetaphysical placesā in my earlier post. The problem is that neither you nor I have any conception of what a āmetaphysical placeā means in our direct experienceāour entire experience of āplaceā is rooted in physicality. If we use words like āspiritual realmsā or ādimensionsā weāre left with the same difficulty. Itās not that Iām disagreeing with you, itās just that once we are no longer talking about concrete physicality words like āplaceā cease to have significant meaningāwe are now talking about something that is beyond our present comprehension.
So we canāt simply pretend that Hell is a place in the exact same way that Ohio is a place. Even if we use the word āplaceā we are using āplaceā more as analogy because of our lack of better language.
Agreed. What is with the 20-character thing?
Peter
is it a place ?? yes ,the bigger problem is the ignorance of what hell really is . lets remove the pagan aspects of it and realize its nothing more than the place the living put the dead . the dead dont even know they are there . and wont know they were there until there is a resurrection . to understand the torment of hell is knowing that someday each and every one of us will be put in a grave .
In the Old Testament there is language of how the dead donāt know anything.
But the Old Testament is more nuanced than that. When David laments over the death of his infant son he speaks of being reunited in with his child in Sheāol. Which would mean nothing if Sheāol is nothing more than a generalized term for being dead in the grave without any conscious existence whatsoever. Likewise we rad in the Old Testament of the episode where King Saul goes to the necromancer of Endor, violating Godās Commandment and even his own civil law in doing so, in order to seek advice from the dead Samuelāthe event is strange for a number of reasons, why does Samuel actually show up anyway? Some have tried to argue that this wasnāt really Samuel but a demonābut the text says it is Samuel. So the āshadeā or āghostā of Samuel really does appear and talk to Saul, rebuking him for what he has done and shocking the necromancer herself (then, like today, psychics, mediums, etc are engaged in hogwash conartistry the dead donāt actually talk to them).
So clearly, from the text of the Old Testament alone we see that the state of the dead is complicated, certainly more complicated than your assessment. The Old Testament simultaneously speaks of the dead not knowing anything, and yet clearly, the dead still have awareness of some kindāSamuel can rebuke Saul, David looks forward to being reunited with his child.
In the New Testament things get more complicated. In Jesusā parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus there is no suggestion that the dead are ignorantāthe rich man in Gehenna is aware of his situation, the situation of Lazarus, and wants to warn others not to make his mistake. It is a parable, but just a cursory look at how Jesus constantly talks about Gehenna as an existence where the wicked experience fire, darkness, gnashing of teeth, and some kind of perpetual death (āthe worm does not dieā is a clear reference to maggots consuming rotting flesh) all seem to point quite clearly to the reality of some form of awarenessārather than obliviousness.
The accusation of āPaganismā is meaningless unless there can be some kind of demonstration of the infiltration of pagan ideas. In some regard I do think that many modern Christians have adopted a quasi-pagan view of many things; but that is more in a generalized way rather than a specific infiltration of a specific pagan belief. But thatās a far more complicated subject, and I would submit that this is because āpaganismā is, I think, the ānaturalā condition of human religionāi.e. what fallen and sinful human beings naturally gravitate toward (as St. Paul indicates in Romans ch. 1); without the clear revelation of God, man apart from Christ, will naturally start to think in pagan terms. Again, thatās a bigger subject, and I think some of the ways modern pop-religion looks like tends to look a little pagan and thatās a problem. But the idea that there is a post-mortem conscious existence is not paganāitās a recurring theme in Scripture, sometimes implied and sometimes explicit.
Have you done your own homework and study on this subject? Because I would highly recommend you do so if you havenāt.
So you are saying that Jesus was lying?
Peter
someone lied to you ,be it a Sunday school teacher ,a minister ,a parent continuing the made up narrative . are you saying there is a place of torment of fire that the conscious dead souls inhabit?? that would be the lie. who was it that said āāyou wont die āā? could it be Satan !
I think you might be confused. You did not answer my question.
āAnd the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.ā Revelation 14:11
Or here
āThen he will say to those on his left, āDepart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.ā Matthew 25:41
Maybe here?
āBut I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!ā Luke 12:5
Or when Jesus told this story.
āThere was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich manās table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abrahamās side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, āFather Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.ā
But Abraham said, āChild, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.ā
And he said, āThen I beg you, father, to send him to my fatherās house-- for I have five brothersāso that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.ā But Abraham said, āThey have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.ā And he said, āNo, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.ā He said to him, āIf they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.āā Luke 16:19-31
Is it your opinion that Jesus is lying?
Peter
are you saying Jesus believed such things or that the people he was talking to believed such things ? perhaps thatās something you never constipated . what you will really find is Jesus speaking to a frame of reference for the ones he was talking to .