Is our final home going to be heaven or a new earth?

Theology
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Sensitivity does not make you correct. It makes you twitchy. And I should know as I am a sensitive person too. So I understand the importance to acknowledge that only God is God, and no human is unerring. Anything that man touches is suspect, rife with corruption and political agenda. And all religions have been touched by man.

You should definitely attend a University where you can study more thoroughly those doctrines. And church history. As I have written, faith only becomes real when you can wrestle with it.

My faith does not require any of this to be true or correct or literal. Christianity, Judaism, all the religions of the world- it could all be wrong and my faith would still hold regardless. Because my faith is not based on a doctrine of man. It is based on my relationship with God. Which is lived in. I see God, I walk with God, I listen and learn and grow.

I accredit Christianity for giving me a sure foundation, for sure. But it also showed me what happens when you trust a human with your relationship with God.

God is my Guide, not a human who tells me we shouldn’t drink alcohol because Christ said he wouldn’t touch it again until he returned.

God is my Shepherd, not a church who cares more about proper pronoun usage, and Christmas Greetings, than about the homeless and the starving children.

I don’t need to have all the information perfectly right in order to be right with God. That is a manipulative, controlling, demonic cult mentality buried in the heart of religious behavior. Only God Knows All Things. You just read a book and came to a conclusion. That does not make you “right.” or more “right” than me. Or less, if I am being honest.

Love is the Law. That is the whole Law. Love is unification. Love preserves life. There is no law written against it, but all things of God point toward it. The Gospel was a simple matter, spread by the Apostles. That the poor, everyday person could know God without all the convoluted malarky of the priests. A light burden. A joy. So how could something so simple, and light, become so wound tight? Because man thought it should be fleshed out with rules upon rules, ideas and more rules. Assumptions, proclamations, and guess work.

Sure, its fun, but the fact is anyone can proclaim anything and call it a doctrine. But that does not make it Gospel Truth. Just something another man said.

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I love your post @anon75384934, you havent written anything wrong…
Doctrines must be derived from Holy Scripture and discerned within the framework of the Church’s living Tradition. No teaching should be assumed to align with the Gospel if it has been consciously or unconsciously modified to conform to personal preferences, cultural pressures, or social perceptions. Authentic doctrine is not determined by the approval of individuals or by the prevailing opinion of society, but through careful examination, guided by the wisdom of the Church Fathers, the ecclesial community, and the continuity of liturgical and theological practice. Any deviation from this process risks introducing human distortion into divine truth, thereby undermining the integrity of faith and the proper understanding of God’s revelation. The faithful are called to test all teachings against Scripture and Tradition, recognizing that the Church functions as the guardian and interpreter of divine revelation, ensuring that doctrines remain consistent with the Gospel and conducive to salvation.
The Question: What is the Church?
Answer: The Church is those the Apostles established, the living Body of Christ, entrusted with His truth, His sacraments, and His Spirit. It is not a club of opinions, a political body, or a collection of rules—it is the divine fellowship Christ Himself founded, carrying His light into the world, guarding His Gospel, and calling all who follow Him into life eternal.

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But @anon75384934, I see no biblical quotes in your answer to show the Spirit’s gender. The actual usage of male pronouns for the Holy Spirit is in God’s inspired Word. Therefore, I use the male pronouns. That’s all.

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I don’t care how you address God. That is between you and God. You came at me for my use, not the other way around. And that is the problem. Its ypu trying to control what other people do. I explained my position, you guys argued that I am wrong, I disagreed and said I am good, and you keep it going for no other purpose than to have the last word.

Is that a sign of Maturity? Or being Christian? Or behaving Spiritually? It is childish, disrespectful, and again, neither of us have the final say. It’s God. You aren’t His or Her Mouthpiece anymore than I am.

And again, arguing about pronouns is absolutely stupid. This post has nothing to do with pronouns. And I am sure God has bigger concerns.

You want quotes, go to the wiki link full of examples that I am not quoting here because this post is suppose to be about the afterlife.

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I apologize, @anon75384934, I didn’t see the post where you said that you were done with our conversation. I just thought we were continuing it.

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I forgive you, @Bruce_Leiter .

Lets move the conversation back to heaven and final residence. As the post title refers. Certainly we can take something else from my original post, something of more Spiritual consequence than pronouns, and bring it back on topic:

For instance, If someone were to describe your character, does it embody the qualities of the Holy Spirit? Does it mirror Eternity, or a New Creation? Or, if not, in what spirit do you dwell? Please share how you engage this world as one who represents that final residence.

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When people die right now the righteous go to heaven, the unrighteousness go to hades/sheol whatever you want to call it.

When Jesus returns he will raise the righteous from the dead (the first resurrection) and they will live on this planet again for a 1000 years. Jesus will be ruling and reigning over the survivors who he doesn’t kill upon his return. During this time Satan is bound (and presumably demons as well) and cannot affect the people of the earth. When the thousand years ends Satan is released and will fool the nations once again and lead them to a global war against Jesus. This is will quickly fail and the earth and universe will be destroyed.

A New Earth and a new universe (heavens) will be created, all those in hades/sheol will be raised from the dead and judged. Anyone whose name is not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire for an eternal, personalised torment.

Those who are “saved” and whose name ARE written in the book of life will enjoy the New Earth and universe and heaven which is now separated from creation will be united with creation and it will be one place.

The saints who live on the new earth will no longer remember the old world and those in the lake of fire and this new world will start and continue in no sin.

So yes we will live on the new earth in an eternal body forever.

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@astandardchristian, I’m a standard Christian too, but we have different views about the events. However, we agree on some of it, especially our final home. We’ll find out, won’t we! Come soon, Lord Jesus!

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RE: The Sea

I think you nail it on the head about the sea as symbolic. In the Old Testament the sea is often representative of unknown hostile powers. I can imagine that if you are a person who lived next to the massive Mediterranean Sea, with a knowledge of how people came from the sea and wreaked havoc to towns and villages (see “Sea Peoples” in relation to the Bronze Age Collapse), and how the sea was vast and mysterious–what was across the sea? The sea represents trepidation, danger, hostility. There is danger out there, the unknown, there are raiders who might come and destroy your home and hurt your family. So there is a groundedness (if one excuses the pun) of viewing the sea as a place of danger. A world without the sea, in biblical imagery, is a world without danger or threats. In the Age to Come, when God makes new the heavens and the earth, there is no sea because this is a perfect and good world of true justice and peace where God is in the midst of all. For the same reason we do not need to imagine that it speaks of no sun or moon because God Himself is the light, it’s about how God’s light and presence fills all things–there is no darkness to speak of. We do not need to assume there won’t be a literal sun or moon.

I don’t think a literal city is going to descend from the sky, but I do think that there is a union between heaven (in the sense of God’s sovereign authority and sublime power and presence) and earth. The Revelation is, therefore, describing the renewal of all things in the way it describes everything: in robust apocalyptic imagery.

Or that’s my take anyway.

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Brother Bruce,

You cite the scriptures correctly, but understanding the context of them is another matter entirely. In Rev 22:20, John wrote that Jesus said that he was coming soon. That is a matter of some confusion because the timeframe is not understood. 2 Peter 3:8 says that one day in heaven is to God as a thousand human years, so either Jesus was saying that he was coming quickly in terms of human time, or in terms of heavenly time. When devout Christians die, they go immediately to be with Jesus, which is the same place where the thief on Christ’s right hand on the cross went. A place called Paradise. I would actually call any place with Jesus, heaven. Wouldn’t you? How long will we be in heaven as disembodied spirits before the rapture and the resurrection? It has only been less than three heavenly days in heaven since Jesus was born, crucified, resurrected, and ascended, even though 2,025 years have passed on earth. Hence, a very long time may pass before resurrected Christians will inherit a new earth. Or the time for the Lord’s coming is shortly due.

I don’t think the First Century Christians were encouraged by the Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the local churches to sit around thinking about their final heavenly home, where and what it would be. Instead, they were admonished to pursue righteousness in the here and now by seeking to do good to those brothers and sisters around them, and by heeding the words of the Holy Spirit in proclaiming the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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When St. Peter writes that a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day as far as God is concerned, he is not providing some mathematical conversation rate between earth time and heavenly time. He’s saying that time is fundamentally irrelevant for God, that God is not constrained by the human experience of time. There is no difference, to God, between a day or a thousand years. It’s no different than saying that for God one second is the same as a million years, or any significant contrast of time. The context is that some time has happened between Jesus’ earthly ministry and the (then) present in which Peter wrote, with some mockingly saying, “So when is this coming supposed to happen?” Peter explains that God is not beholden to human time keeping, and things will unfold as God so wills it; and since God is patient and desires that all be saved, the time of Christ’s return will be exactly when God knows, and not a moment sooner or later. So Jesus hasn’t returned yet because God wants to save you and me too. And you and I couldn’t have existed unless we were conceived and born in this world.

The second point I want to touch on is that “Paradise” in the first century was conceived of as the place of the righteous dead. The word, in Jewish usage (though a Greek borrowing of a Persian word) referred pretty distinctively to the Garden of Eden. In the 2nd Temple Period Jewish thought conceived of the Garden of Eden as existing in the third heaven; there were multiple “heavens” in the ancient worldview of the Israelites (the Hebrew word translated as “heaven” is always plural), usually seven heavens, though in the works that eventually were compiled as "1 Enoch” there are ten heavens. The third heaven, in Enoch’s vision is where Eden is found; this 2nd Temple Jewish context is almost certainly what, in part, informs St. Paul’s description of the man (many believe Paul refers to himself in the third person here) who was taken up into the third heaven to Paradise and beheld things too great to speak of.

When Jesus tells the thief, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise” this means the thief, in spite of the fact of what he had done and his current situation, would be counted among the righteous, not the wicked.

The idea that we, when we die, go to “Paradise” is never mentioned in the Bible. Jesus did not ascend to Paradise after His resurrection, He ascended to take His seat at the right hand of the Father, and Jesus says to those who trust in Him, “Where I am, you will be also”. I think a convincing argument is that this is way above/beyond merely Paradise, this is the promise of being with the Lord in divine glory. So, when St. Paul in 2 Corinthians speaks of being “absent from the body, and being present with the Lord” this is not about going to a place called Paradise, it’s about being with the Lord.

In modern times we have tended to reduce the complex language of Scripture, and its ancient context, to a highly simplified “heaven and hell”. But the Bible uses a lot of deeply complicated and nuanced language to describe the fate of the righteous and the wicked. Though most importantly, the hope which Christians cling to and hope for is Christ’s return, the resurrection of the body, and the life of the Age to Come (new heavens and new earth). But even between death and resurrection we can know that our life is in Christ, and so even as the body sleeps, we are in some sense still with the Lord beyond the veil of our own mortality–with the day coming when even the old decaying bodies smoldering in the ground will be raised and crowned with glory, when Christ comes to judge the quick and the dead.

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Most days I feel I am a sub-standard Christian fighting to get to everyone else’s level - Amen. It seems as though a New Earth[1] would be my final home with such a fulfillment.

  1. capitalization seems appropro for such a destination proper vs a designation of word ↩︎

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I am a simple man, @SFsergio, walking with and learning from the Scriptures, just as you are.
I truly appreciate your presence and contributions here on this forum.

Stay strong in the Messiah, brother.

J.

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I love this. It makes me smile and know i will be ok. I have not read through the entire bible yet but half way. Knowing that what I already believed, a new earth or new life, really does exist, makes me very happy. I love this!

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Brother Nerd, I have no idea where you derived your scriptural information and interpretations, but they are believed by many seminary educated Christians to be correct. Yet, there are many Christians who believe flatly what Jesus said to the thief from the cross, that he and the thief would be going to Paradise, a particular place, that day. Most pastors believe that the thief was saved at that moment by grace and was ushered into heaven by Christ. I received all the words I wrote from the Holy Spirit, which Jesus also promised, in John 14:26, would give Christians teachings about ALL things. I give credit where credit is due, and the Holy Spirit’s divine purpose on the earth is to teach Christians ALL things and to reveal to them what Jesus said in his ministry. Seminaries are not inspired institutions. They were not elemental, or even mentioned to the New Testament Church, or even mentioned in the holy scriptures. Jesus realized that flawed human philosophy would eventually deceive Christians into believing doctrines of devils, as the Apostle Paul prophesied in 1 Timothy 4 and 2 Timothy 3. The Holy Spirit was the means the Savior gave the earth for Christians to realize and practice truth and to know false doctrine. While it is true that the Holy Spirit will always reveal truth to the sincere seeker of truth, human arrogance will lead seminary educated men into the vain pursuit of philosophy. I personally believe that the use of ancient languages by seminary trained academicians to seek scriptural interpretations by secular means is one of the worst methods of discerning the truth of the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is the source of all truth, spiritual and mortal, and will not allow error to enter into the mind of man.

Someone wrote a response to me that we don’t know if it is Satan that is revealing the knowledge to us, instead of the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that if we receive knowledge about a particular doctrine in answer to a sincere prayer for clarification, if we do what the Holy Spirit tells us to do, we will know of the doctrine whether it is of God or man. Satan has no power over the mind of a person who devotes himself to fervent prayer and asks God in humility for answers to poignant questions.

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Very true, @NortonNowlinMA!! I hope while I work for him here!

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Home? Being Heaven?

Maybe Paradise! No misunderstandings, no quarrels, nothing to worry about; being able to remain in the condition of sanctification without needing to worry. :slight_smile:

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The biblical narrative, when read as a coherent whole, points not to an eternal disembodied existence in heaven but to embodied life in a renewed creation as the final destiny of God’s people. While Scripture teaches that believers are “with Christ” after death (Phil. 1:23) and that our citizenship is in heaven (Phil. 3:20), this refers to an intermediate state and present identity, not the ultimate goal. The climax of redemption occurs at Christ’s return, when the dead are raised and the living transformed (1 Thess. 4:16–17), and Revelation 21–22 envisions the new Jerusalem descending from heaven, signifying the union of God’s presence with a renewed creation. This fulfills the creational purpose seen from Genesis onward: humanity living bodily in fellowship with God within a perfected world. Thus, Christian hope is not escape from the earth but its transformation, where heaven and earth are joined, and God dwells with His people forever.
Peace
Sam

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@NortonNowlinMA My problem with the idea that the Holy Spirit reveals/teaches us certain truths, independent of the collective received truth of the historic Christian community, is that if you get 10 people in a room and ask them what the Holy Spirit told them personally, you’ll get 10 completely different answers.

I have, over many years, spoken with people who claimed the Holy Spirit told them X or the Holy Spirit told them Y. The only thing all these people had in common was that 1) They all claimed direct knowledge from God and 2) they all radically disagreed with one another. Not just small differences, I mean radically different and contradicting truth-claims.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself. Nor do I put my faith in men who claim divine infallibility. And when someone claims God directly reveals or directly says, or claim their opinions and interpretations are directly from God, they are claiming–whether they admit it or not–divine infallibility for themselves.

If I want to understand Scripture, I have to put in the hard work of doing exegesis. The Holy Spirit isn’t going to beam divine knowledge into my brain–rather the Holy Spirit works through His Church to preserve the received faith of the Church, and I have an obligation as a reader of Scripture to study, to learn, and to do real exegesis. And I do that within the larger context of being part of the living, breathing, believing community of Christians down through the generations, i.e. the Church.

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I think that we’ve gotten far afield from the topic of this thread. Someone should show me how this part of the thread is related to that theme, please. Or maybe we should start a different thread.