Israel and the Church

Theology
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There is abundant Scripture to indicate that the present divine purpose must be the out calling of the Church from both Gentiles and Jews.

Seven figures are employed in the New Testament to set forth the relation which exists between Christ and the church. All seven are needed to the end that the whole revelation respecting this relationship may be disclosed. In connection with each figure and as its parallel there is a similar truth to be observed regarding Israel.

  1. Christ is the shepherd and Christians are the sheep. Israel, too, was the flock of God and the sheep of His pasture.

  2. Christ is the vine and the believers of today are the branches. Israel was Jehovah’s vineyard.

  3. Christ is the chief Cornerstone and Christians are the building. Israel had a temple but the Church is a living temple for the habitation of God through the Spirit (interdependence; indwelling).

  4. Christ is the High Priest and New Testament believers are a kingdom of priests. Israel had a priesthood; the Church in its entirety is a priesthood (Rev 1:6; 5:10).

  5. Christ is the Head of the Church which is His body. Israel was a commonwealth, an organized nation; the Church is an organism very much alive by reason of partaking of one Life and being related to its living Head.

  6. Christ is the Head of a New Creation and Christians are with Him in that Creation as its vital members. Israel was of the old creation and attached to the earth; the Church is of the New Creation and related to heaven. (This figure dwells upon the believer’s marvels of position and standing since he is in Christ.)

  7. Christ is the bridegroom and the Church is the Bride. Israel was the repudiated, yet to be restored wife of Jehovah; the Church is the espoused virgin Bride of Christ.

This relationship for Christians, foreseen in various types, is all of another sphere and figure (from Israel—NC). It sets forth the glory of Christ in which the Church as His Bride will share above. What marvelous things are wrought in this company of believers that they should become suitable as a Bride for the Second Person of the Godhead; and such a One as will ravish His heart throughout eternity!

It is never taught in the scriptures that it as a nation will appear in heaven, though this destiny is open at present to individual believers from among the Jews. The destiny of the nation is earthly, extending on forever into the New Earth which is yet to be (Israel will inherit the New Earth; Christians will inherit the New Heaven—NC).

The destiny of the Church is heavenly. As His Bride and Body, the Church will be with the Bridegroom and Head wherever He goes (Jhn 10:4).

— Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871–1952)

MJS daily devotional excerpt for September 9

“The object of the Christian life is that we may center in the Object of the Father—His Beloved Son.

"If we go on with the Father, sweet as is the assurance that we belong to Him, yet the uppermost thought will in the long run be Himself. We shall come back to His Person. We shall in our praises weave with them what the Lord Jesus has done, suffered, and won for us; but the primary thought in our hearts is, not what we have gained, however true, but what He has been for us and what He is for us, yes, what He is in Himself.”—James Butler Stoney (1814-1897)

“There is usually only occupation with the Lord Jesus for the relief of the conscience, and if so, where does it stop? It stops when the relief is gained. But if He is the object of the heart, you will never be satisfied but in fellowship with Him where He is.” -MJS

"I know of no arguments, and I am acquainted with no power, that will move the heart to devotedness except the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Himself and His love. It is possible to read books by the score, and to listen to the most faithful and blessed ministry for years on end, and yet never know the Lord Jesus as a present loving Object in heavenly glory. It is nigh impossible to see and know Him there by faith without a resulting intense desire to be wholly devoted to Him here.

"We have a new Person before us as the Object of our faith and affections; and as we drop ourselves and have the Lord Jesus as our Object, He is formed in us. What has been judicially accomplished at the Cross has its fruition by the Spirit in our souls, and it is by that principle that we grow.”—Charles Andrew Coates None But The Hungry Heart

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Well, this is interesting. @NetChaplian presents a classic dispensational view of ecclesiology (the doctrine of the Church) and eschatology (the study of the end times). The quotes he uses, specifically from Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, argue for a strict, fundamental distinction between Israel and the Church.

What is fascinating is that those reading the same Bible have arrived at two major, historically established ways of understanding these passages. Dispensationalists argue that God has two distinct, parallel plans for two distinct groups of people.

Israel. An earthly nation with earthly promises (land, an earthly kingdom, an everlasting earthly heritage on the New Earth). The Church. A heavenly organism (composed of both Jews and Gentiles) with heavenly promises, destined for the New Heaven.

Biblical arguments used to support this view:

Paul speaks of the Church as a “mystery” hidden in ages past—a new body where Jews and Gentiles are co-heirs. Ephesians 3:1–6 and Romans 11:25–29: Paul notes that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the full number of Gentiles comes in, implying God still has a distinct covenantal future for national Israel.

As Chafer points out, the New Testament uses specific metaphors for the Church (e.g., Bride of Christ, Body of Christ) that differ from Old Testament descriptions of national Israel (e.g., unfaithful wife, the vineyard).

However, many Christians (Reformed, Anglican, Lutheran, Catholic, Covenant theologians) disagree with Chafer’s sharp division between an “earthly Israel” and a “heavenly Church.” They argue that Scripture reveals one continuous People of God across both Testaments.

Biblical arguments used to challenge Chafer’s view:

Galatians 3:28–29: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” This suggests believers in Christ are the true spiritual heirs of Abraham’s promise, not a separate secondary group. Ephesians 2:11–22: Paul describes Christ breaking down the “dividing wall of hostility” to create “one new man” out of Jew and Gentile, rather than keeping their ultimate destinations eternally separated.

1 Peter 2:9–10: Peter takes Old Testament titles explicitly given to national Israel (“a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation”) and applies them directly to the New Testament Church. And Revelation 21: In the final vision of redemption, heaven comes down to earth. The New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth, blending the heavenly and earthly into a single unified creation where God dwells with all His redeemed people together.

Now I do not see this as a matter of heresy vs. orthodoxy; rather, it is a disagreement over biblical interpretation (hermeneutics) between faithful Christians. How Netchaplian seems to see it is Christ as the ultimate object. The second half of the post (quoting Stoney and Coates) is deeply biblical and widely accepted by all traditions. The idea that the Christian life is centered on knowing, loving, and beholding Jesus Himself, rather than merely seeking relief of conscience or rule-keeping, aligns directly with passages like Philippians 3:8–10 and 2 Corinthians 3:18.

Many feel that creating an eternal “Two-Tier” System. Chafer’s sharp separation, placing Israel permanently on an “earthly” level and the Church permanently on a “heavenly” level, can over-compartmentalize Scripture. In Hebrews 11:10–16, OT saints like Abraham were explicitly looking forward to a “heavenly country” and a “city whose architect and builder is God,” not just physical land on earth.

Some also feel that overlooking the unity of the New Creation is not the way to go. The end of Revelation does not portray two separate eternal homes (one in the sky for Christians and one on earth for Israel). Instead, Revelation 21:1–3 shows God bringing Heaven down to the New Earth so that all His redeemed people dwell together in His presence.

Really curious, anyone reading this, what say you? Jump in; let’s talk about it.

Be blessed,

Peter

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NetChaplian posted this on another Christian forum. It’s an attempt to separate God’s Israel from Christ’s Church per men’s false Pre-trib Rapture theory Dispensationalism.

Once the “house of Judah” (Jews) of the southern kingdom rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Gospel went to the Gentiles. Just so happens that the ten tribes of Israel called the “house of Israel” God scattered first out of the land never to return. Where did they go? God hints at where in the prophet Hosea and per OT Scripture about their final return to the holy land at Christ’s 2nd coming. The ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles, lost their heritage as part of Israel, became as Gentiles, and to this day in majority think they are Gentiles. They were scattered to the west to Asia Minor and Europe, and made up the early founders (with Gentiles) of Christ’s western Christian Church and nations.

Thus God’s Israel definitely is NOT separated from Christ’s Church. Those men who claim it is don’t know this OT history, because it is written of in God’s Word.

Again, another attempt at separation between God’s Israel and Christ’s Church, per Darby’s 1830’s doctrine of Dispensationalism. The “vineyard” in God’s Word as a symbol represents the “house of Israel” only, the ten tribes of Israel. And Judah represents God’s pleasant plant. This per Isaiah 5.

Christ’s parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21 is about God’s “vineyard” of the “house of Israel”. The “nation” Jesus said would be bring forth the vineyard’s fruit represents scattered Israel joined with believing Gentiles that make up Christ’s Church. And the “house of Israel” (ten tribes) after the split of 1 Kings 11 was known only as “Israel” after that split. These are who Lord Jesus that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the “house of Israel” (ten tribes mixed among the Gentiles). That is where The Gospel went to after He was rejected by the Jews at Jerusalem.

And yet another false attempt to separate God’s Israel from Christ’s Church.

Per Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2, the Apostles AND PROPHETS made up the early foundation of Christ’s Church, with Jesus being its Chief Cornerstone. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was first preached to Abraham 430 years prior to the giving of the law. That’s what the Promise by Faith was which Abraham believed, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. Thus Apostle Paul says in Galatians 3 that all those of FAITH have become the “children of Abraham.”

What, no kings in that Promise also? Jesus said His servants would reign with Him as priests AND kings. Per Matthew 19:28, Jesus promised His 12 Apostles they each would sit upon a throne judging one of the 12 tribes of future Israel. And they made up the early foundation of His Church, like Paul said in Ephesians 2. Cannot separate God’s Israel from Christ’s Church.

And still another error in trying to separate God’s Israel from Christ’s Church.

Per Ephesians 2 also, Apostle Paul said the believing Gentiles have come nigh to the “commonwealth of Israel”, as Paul was pointing to Christ’s Church with that “commonwealth of Israel” label. Man’s false Dispensationalism instead tries to drive a non-existent wedge in between that “commonwealth of Israel” idea and Christ’s Church.

I hope you see what the writer is up to by now, trying to separate God’s Israel from Christ’s Church when God’s Israel like the ten scattered tribes of Israel, no doubt make up a great portion of Christ’s Church.

Per God’s parable in Isaiah 54, both Jerusalem and the Church represent Christ’s Bride. Revelation 21 reveals Jerusalem as Christ’s Bride.

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I wouldn’t falsely accuse another Brother, that’s the Enemies job (Rev 12:10).

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I did not falsely accuse you. I EXPOSED YOU for preaching a DOCTRINE OF MEN, which is about John Darby’s 1830’s fantasy of the separation of God’s ISRAEL from Christ’s Church. It is called DISPENSATIONALISM, and it is a FALSE doctrine of men.

And each point of yours I showed just how… you were trying to create that false separation idea.

So you need to REPENT, and get OFF Darby’s false Pre-trib Rapture theory which accompanies his Dispensationalism ideas that are false also.

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You should just be saying what you believe without the accusation. I didn’t accuse you when I shared what I believe. God bless!

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A dispensation is just something God is doing different at a different time. For example God administered the OT in a different way than in Christianity. Paul mentions dispensations that God had him to administer (1Co 9:17; Eph 1:10; 3:2; Col 1:25).

Dispensationalism is an evangelical Christian theological framework that interprets biblical history as a series of distinct eras, or “dispensations,” during which God administers His relationship with humanity under different rules. Originating in the 19th century through the teachings of John Nelson Darby, this system relies on a strict, historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture. -Reddit

Three Core Tenets

The system is built upon three foundational ideas, often summarized by theologians as the essential elements of dispensationalism:

Israel and the Church are distinct: Believers argue that national, ethnic Israel and the Christian Church are two separate entities with distinct promises and roles in God’s master plan. The Church has not replaced Israel.

Doxological purpose: History is primarily viewed as a vehicle to showcase God’s ultimate glory through different administrative arrangements, rather than just a mechanism for human salvation.

Literal hermeneutics: Old Testament prophecies and covenants—especially those regarding land and a future earthly kingdom—are interpreted literally rather than allegorically or spiritually (symbolically). -Westminster

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You shared what you ACCEPTED FROM MEN’S DOCTRINES. So let’s not talk falsely now.

I exposed it, and that’s too bad; I could care less that it makes you angry. You need to REPENT.

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Glutton for punishment, I guess.

A… dispensation does represent different operations by God regarding His Plan of Salvation. That’s not the point though with Darby’s Dispensationalism involving the END of this world. He created a false dispensation doctrine about the ‘end’ that is designed to support his false preaching of a pre-trib rapture theory.

There, I just made all your attempt at supporting the false Pre-trib Rapture theory and Darby’s Dispensationalism exposed in just one paragraph.

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@DavyP

Reading this, and seeing how sharply another brother has been addressed, is a timely reminder to me that pride can so easily creep into any of us, and that we should all be mindful of the ToS rules and of how we speak to one another.

And as of late, I have discerned what seems to be “another spirit” moving through the dark recesses of the Internet, making its voice increasingly known and, it seems, no longer even attempting to conceal itself. It is a sobering reminder that we are called to “try the spirits whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1), and to remain watchful, humble, and discerning, lest we mistake the voice of the flesh, the enemy, or our own pride for the voice of the Spirit.

I enjoy @NetChaplian’s contributions.

J.

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Not angry, just trying to help you! God bless!!

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Appreciate your encouraging words, God bless!

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And God bless you too, and family brother @NetChaplian.

Shalom my brother in Christ Jesus.

J.

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No need to be concerned for me, because the revealing in the actual Bible Scripture is that Christ’s future coming to gather His Church will happen AFTER… the tribulation like Jesus said, and I listen to Him, and believe Him.

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Pushing a misleading doctrine of man with claiming it is Biblical, is an abomination to God. Especially when it is a design by the devil to deceive His people. He actually showed this in the Ezekiel 13 Chapter about the false pre-trib rapture theory. He said He hates those who hunt the souls to make them fly.

Lord Jesus Christ gave ‘direct’ statements in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 showing that His coming to gather His Church will be AFTER the tribulation, not prior to it. So there is NO excuse for allowing the pre-trib rapture theory to creep into Christ’s Church. Those who allow it will have to answer to Lord Jesus for it when He returns.

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The debate over the timing of the Rapture, whether Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-Tribulation, is a primary example of a secondary eschatological issue where sincere, Bible-believing scholars reach different conclusions. Accusing brothers and sisters in Christ of pushing “demonic doctrine” or an “abomination” over a rapture timeline crosses the line from conviction into divisive pride.

The Bible presents clear core truths about the end times: Jesus is returning personally, bodily, and visibly, and believers will be gathered to Him. However, the exact chronological mechanics are assembled by putting together complex apocalyptic passages (Daniel, Olivet Discourse, Paul’s epistles, Revelation). Because apocalyptic language uses symbols, figures, and non-linear patterns, reasonable interpretations vary. Let’s look at them.

Pre-Tribulation: Christ removes the Church before God pours out His wrath during the 7-year Tribulation.1 Thess. 5:9 (“God has not destined us for wrath”); 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

Mid-Tribulation: Believers go through the first half of the 7 years but are rescued before the final Great Tribulation.1 Corinthians 15:52 (The “last trumpet” sounding midway through Revelation)

Post-Tribulation: The Church remains on Earth through the Tribulation, refined by trial, and meets Christ in the air at His final return.Matthew. 24:29–31 (“Immediately after the tribulation of those days…”)

For ours is not to know when; ours is to occupy until He comes. Be careful of being so sure of something that is not spelled out in the Bible.

Be blessed, be a blessing,

Peter

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Great stuff and God bless!

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As we see, Peter is still in his little dream world in trying to discredit my teaching DIRECTLY FROM GOD’S WRITTEN WORD that Christ’s coming and gathering of His Church will happen AFTER… the tribulation, and NOT prior to it like pre-tribbers falsely believe.

What brethren in Christ here that had put their trust in Peter does not realize now that he believes that FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY FROM MEN, and not from God’s Word?

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I don’t know where Johann posted the discredit against me about the Jewish historian Josephus’ writings, but here is my response.

Now why… would Johann want to tell a big FIB and claim the Jewish historian Josephus never claimed the title of JEW was first used by those Israelites returning from the Babylon captivity, and also those strangers who were with them?

The following is from Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter 5, Section 7 (William Whiston translation).

"7. Now when he was come to Babylon, and had taken with him many of his countrymen, who voluntarily followed him, he came to Jerusalem in the twenty and fifth year of the reign of Xerxes. And when he had shown the epistles to God he gave them to Adeus, and to the other governors. He also called together all the people to Jerusalem, and stood in the midst of the temple, and made the following speech to them: “You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers, Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in mind continually, and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the king to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. I desire you, therefore who well know the ill-will our neighboring nations bear to us, and that when once they are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us, and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God, as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day, but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it.” When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities, as every one’s ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work: that is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon, which is taken from the tribe of Judah, which came first to these places, and thence both they and the country gained that appellation."

The Babylon captivity by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, was only upon the 3-tribe “house of Judah” per God’s written Word. The ten tribes of Israel had already been taken captive by the kings of Assyria about 120 years earlier, and were no longer in the holy land. This is Old Testament and secular history, as Josephus even mentioned how in his day (around 100 A.D.), that the ten tribes were still scattered beyond Euphrates and were a great number of people.

AND JUST A NOTE: The orthodox unbelieving Jews don’t like Josephus, because he did not commit suicide with the other soldiers as they all promised to each other they would, in the battle with the Romans.

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I hate doing this on my phone. Since I’m off tomorrow I had to ask. Could you provide the statement I made where I declared I believe in the pre-trib. You made the allegation now back it up. As for you claiming you know the truth of Scripture. Then make statements that are not supported is a little silly. Nowhere does it say pre- Mid-or post- trib. You just believe in one of the possibilities.

Peter

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