Your sources @rstrats?
Thanks.
re Johann.
Forgive me fir interrupting, I haven’t read this thread beyond the first post yet. Anyhoo,
There’s a lot more to it than you think. I’ve wondered before what led the Lord to create man and so forth in the first place? What was happening in heaven right before Jesus created the heavens and the earth?
Now I am in no way being dogmatic or saying I am right, this is my mere speculation, ok? Let’s not forget that. That said, here is what I came up with:
I think Lucifer fell in heaven before the earth and man was created. God cast him out of heaven, and then created the heavens and the earth and man. There was a lot of beings in heaven that did not understand what happened for many angels to fall and get booted out.
God, why did you cast those people out? (Well he stopped loving me…) What is Love, Lord? They didn’t know! They did not have the knowledge of good and evil. God provides for all in heaven and so the beings (us?) did not understand. What is Love Lord? And so God wanted to bring (us) to understand. But how to explain Love unless you also explain hate? So God made a University of Brotherly Love and called it’s name, Earth !! I know 2 things for sure. 1.) You can’t learn about Love without suffering. 2.) You can not teach anyone about Love without granting them Free Will. So the University was needed. Scripture says He knew us before we were in the womb, so we very well could have been there. We asked the Lord to explain love, because when Love is all you’ve ever known and no one has ever pushed you down and stole your ice cream cone, then look around, you may be in heaven! But, I assume that if He knew us before we were in the womb and He obviously Loved us, He would have to allow us to learn what I love you means when God keeps saying it! Yes Lord, but what does that mean?!
And like I said before, we would have to experience good and evil to be able to fully understand love and compassion, and that can’t happen in heaven. All Students of this course (Us), agree to a dose of Amnesia before being born from the womb in order to experience hate and love and learn, and be tested in a dry run of Life and what it would be like without HIM !!Claw our way through this hateful world and find our way back to (Him) Love and learn to walk in Love as our Lord walks towards us.
Scripture says there is no greater friend, but one who will die for you. Jesus wants us to learn this too and so He, jumped on the grenade for us that we may live, and live with Him. That’s where we come from. That’s Love. So we must suffer if we want to learn these things and better our (spiritual) education. Pay attention, apply it to our short field trip/life here. Don’t fail the Course! Finals are here from the looks of the news. But yeah, apparently I asked God about what does Love really mean? So here I am in School! Perhaps next time, I’ll keep my big mouth shut and trust the Lord!
What are you asking sources for?
Edward429451,
re: “There’s a lot more to it than you think.”
It was merely a condensed summary of the main points from creation to the lake of fire for those who fail the requirements.
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Oh I understand that Brother. I like details myself and just delved into it.
I think it was this that moved my hand? It may be true but it didn’t sound exactly right to me for some reason. The Lord does not make the decision to condemn souls, they choose to be separate from God and God does not force anything upon anyone. The way I understand it, this is a very poor translation.
Or perhaps I misread the tone of that sentence? Sorry if I did.
I think your summary leaves out almost the entire biblical storyline. Scripture does not begin with God creating a lake of fire. It begins with God creating a good world and declaring it “very good” (Gen. 1:31). Man was created in God’s image for fellowship with Him, not for destruction. The lake of fire was originally prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41), not for mankind.
The tragedy is not that God invented an arbitrary test. The tragedy is that mankind willingly rebelled against a holy Creator. From Genesis onward, God repeatedly pursues sinners with mercy, promises redemption, sends prophets, and finally sends His own Son to bear the judgment sinners deserve. The cross is the center of the biblical story, not the lake of fire.
Your argument also assumes that a Creator has no right to establish moral standards for His creatures. Why would that be the case? Every moral law requires a moral lawgiver. If God is perfectly holy and the source of all life, then His standards are not arbitrary but flow from His own character.
Finally, Scripture says God “desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4), and that He takes “no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezek. 33:11). Judgment is God’s righteous response to persistent rebellion, not His delight. The Bible presents a God who is both perfectly just and astonishingly merciful. That is a far richer picture than the caricature you’ve described.
Gal 1:6 I am amazed Θαυμάζω that ὅτι so οὕτως quickly ταχέως you are deserting μετατίθεσθε from ἀπὸ the [One] τοῦ having called καλέσαντος you ὑμᾶς in ἐν [the] grace χάριτι of Christ Χριστοῦ to εἰς another ἕτερον gospel, εὐαγγέλιον,
Gal 1:7 which ὃ is ἔστιν not οὐκ another, ἄλλο· except εἰ . . . μή there are εἰσιν some τινές who οἱ are troubling ταράσσοντες you ὑμᾶς and καὶ are desiring θέλοντες to pervert μεταστρέψαι the τὸ gospel εὐαγγέλιον - τοῦ of Christ. Χριστοῦ.
Gal 1:8 But Ἀλλὰ even καὶ if ἐὰν we ἡμεῖς or ἢ an angel ἄγγελος out of ἐξ heaven οὐρανοῦ should preach a gospel εὐαγγελίζηται* to you ὑμῖν contrary to παρ’ what ὃ we proclaimed εὐηγγελισάμεθα to you, ὑμῖν, let him be ἔστω. accursed! ἀνάθεμα
Gal 1:9 As ὡς we have said before, προειρήκαμεν, even καὶ now ἄρτι I say λέγω, again: πάλιν If εἴ anyone τις is preaching a gospel εὐαγγελίζεται [to] you ὑμᾶς contrary to παρ’ what ὃ you received, παρελάβετε, let him be ἔστω. accursed! ἀνάθεμα
Gal 1:10 For γὰρ presently Ἄρτι do I seek approval πείθω of men, ἀνθρώπους or ἢ - τὸν God? Θεόν; Or ἢ do I seek ζητῶ to please ἀρέσκειν; men? ἀνθρώποις For if εἰ vvv ἔτι I were still pleasing ἤρεσκον, men, ἀνθρώποις vvv ἂν vvv οὐκ I would not be ἤμην. a servant δοῦλος of Christ. Χριστοῦ
J.
I went all the way back to the first post. I guess I missed it. What was your “First Question” that you feel I did not adress? I would love an opertunity to do so.
Peter
If this is it, then you misunderstand. Some may argue that it was the creation of man that caused Lucifer to fall; however, I feel this was done before. We read Jesus’ own words here. Matthew 25:31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty, and you gave me drink, I was a stranger, and you welcomed me, I was naked, and you clothed me, I was sick, and you visited me, I was in prison, and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger, and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So there are two resurrections. One into glory, and one into condemnation. We see this in John 5:28-29 again.
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Wait. Have you ever heard it put this way? “those who have done good, to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Those who will not be saved will still have a resurrection? “And those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Hell is a very real place. However, let’s look into what Jesus actually says.
" And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
Wait. Stop. WHAT does Jesus say was prepared for us from the foundation of the World? “The Kingdom.” Read that again.
“Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
Then read this.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
See? He said He prepared the kingdom for the saved and eternal fire for the sinners. Wait? No. Actually, He said this.
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
The eternal fire, AKA hell, was created for whom? “The Devil and his Angels.” God is not some old man, sitting on a throne, waiting to see how many He can cast into hell. He is not sitting there waiting for you to slip up so He can punish you. He never intended you to go to hell at all. He created hell for one purpose. “The Devil and his Angels.”
He never intended man to go there. He wants as many to be saved from that as possible.
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2nd Peter 3:9
Is this the question I did not answer?
Peter