Once Saved, Always Saved?

Theology
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Brother, the text in ~Matthew 13 does not describe a believer losing salvation, it describes a hearer who never received the word with understanding in the first place, because the verb synienai for understand carries the sense of grasping, accepting, and internalizing the message, and Jesus says this person does not understand, which means the seed never takes root. The evil one snatches what was merely lying on the surface of the heart, and the imagery shows a response that is external, shallow, and temporary rather than the enduring faith described in ~Matthew 13 later when the seed lands in good soil and bears fruit.

Jesus divides the soils to show different kinds of hearers, not saved people losing salvation, because the only group that is truly His is the good soil where the word produces fruit, and the fruit is the evidence of genuine life, and nowhere is this in Scripture as a picture of believers falling from grace. The path soil is not a Christian being snatched out of Christ, it is a hearer who never entered Christ at all, and the parable becomes an invitation to move from hearing to believing so that the word can take root and endure.

Incorrect

Jesus describes the rocky soil as a hearer who reacts emotionally but never becomes a true disciple, because the verb proskairos for endures for a while means temporary and superficial, and the phrase ouk echei rizan, he has no root, means there is no inward life at all. Joy is not the same as regeneration, and the moment persecution tests the commitment he falls away, which shows the seed never penetrated the heart. In the parable only the good soil represents the saved, since only the good soil bears fruit, and Jesus consistently treats fruit as the sign of genuine salvation in ~Matthew 7 and ~John 15, so the rocky soil is not saved and later lost but never rooted from the beginning.

The way I understand OSAS is not the same you understand it brother.

J.

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82

The most difficult aspect of OSAS that I have is that, in spite of how counter-intuitive this may sound, I believe OSAS actually injures assurance, rather than aiding it.

The doctrine of OSAS introduces the possibility of a person being fully convinced that they are saved, but in fact they are not; of a person who believes that they believe, but are in fact an unbeliever.

Let’s take a hypothetical person, “Bob”. Bob grew up in a Christian home, with two loving Christian parents, attended Sunday School, attends church every Sunday, and when he can he also makes it to the Thursday night Bible study. Bob reads his Bible every morning, he sets aside an hour every morning for prayer, Bible reading, and devotion. When Bob hears the Gospel, his heart lights up, those sweet words of what Christ has done for him fill him with hope and joy. He hears the word of God and it fills him with the zeal to follow Jesus. If you asked Bob if he believes in Jesus, well of course he does, does Bob love Jesus? Well of course he does.

Let’s now present two scenarios:

First scenario: Fifty years have passed since we last saw Bob. Bob is sick and dying from a terminal illness, knowing he is probably going to die, Bob is still filled with hope, looking to his Savior.

Second scenario: Bob is terminally ill still, but several years back something happened, we don’t know what, but Bob’s faith seems to be shattered. He’s no longer the committed Christian he was when he was younger, he isn’t looking to the Savior with hope; he is looking at his own mortality without belief in Christ. If you ask Bob if he is a Christian, he would tell you “No” or perhaps “I’m not sure”.

If we imagine a scenario where Bob loses faith, then according to OSAS we have only two possibilities:

  1. Bob was never saved to begin with. He never had faith, he merely thought he did. He didn’t love Jesus, he merely imagined he did–he was never a Christian, he never had salvation, he was always reprobate. If this is the case, then no one can ever truly have any confidence or assurance of their salvation. I could think I’m a Christian, I could think I have faith, but it could be a delusion I tell myself and, in fact, I am entirely without faith.

  2. Bob was saved, and is still saved. Because Bob had faith at one time, he is still saved even if he doesn’t have faith right now. Because Bob can’t lose his salvation, then even if Bob doesn’t believe any more, and even if we take this further and suggest Bob goes on to become a murderer, a rapist, or lives a life fully and deliberately antagonistic to Christ, Bob still has his golden ticket. In this case while the matter of assurance may said to still be intact. This creates an equally dangerous problem: Faith actually doesn’t matter. Rather salvation is a purely binary on-off switch, and salvation becomes effectively a binding contract–once the name is signed on the dotted line, the switch goes on, and it simply doesn’t matter what one does, says, thinks, feels, believes–one has their ticket to glory. This becomes a nearly pagan way of thinking, where the gods can be tricked and manipulated or goaded, or where doing the right X Y Z formula binds the divine hands–if I sacrifice the right number of goats then the rain god will water my crops, if I speak the right incantations then the fertility god will give me lots of children. If I go forward to the altar and say this prayer asking Jesus into my heart, then God will give me a good afterlife.

Regardless we are left not with confidence and assurance in Christ and what Christ has done for us. Instead the focus shifts to ourselves, we become either unable to have confidence in Christ or our confidence is entirely on what we did. And it is no longer by grace alone through faith on Christ’s account alone.

This isn’t my only reason for rejecting OSAS, but it is a significant reason for why I can’t accept it. It is unbiblical, and it is dangerous to faith in Christ. Our confidence ought to come from God’s promise, and to look outside ourselves to the objective works of God, the objective and external word of God. I can trust in my baptism, I can trust in the Lord’s Supper, I can trust in the proclamation of the Gospel–to Christ and what Christ has done. But I can’t trust myself.

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I see it differently, and a lot of this depends on the lenses and theology we bring to the text, and a firm grasp of the syntax and grammar will clear up much of the confusion and help you see the flow of the passage with clarity..

PERSEVERE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern dialectical pairs (see SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Let me illustrate.

Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a lifetime commitment to discipleship?
Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or mankind’s believing and repentant response to a divine offer?
Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?
The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem begins with apparently conflicting passages of the NT:

texts on assurance
statements of Jesus (John 6:37; 10:28-29)
statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)
statements of Peter ( 1 Pet. 1:4-5)
texts on the need for perseverance
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27)
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities! See SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT and SPECIAL TOPIC: KEEP

Salvation is offered to all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Jesus’ death dealt with the fallen creation’s sin problem (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus. See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH’S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

If you would like to read more on this subject from a non-Calvinistic perspective, see

Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)
Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969
Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961
The Bible is addressing two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives and (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God’s sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and VERB TENSES like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to “hold on,” “hold out,” or “continue” (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the PERFECT TENSE VERBS used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source. They come from western logic, not revelation.

The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness. Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all VERB TENSES:

AORIST (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
PERFECT perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
PRESENT (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
FUTUREfuture (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28

SPECIAL TOPIC: APOSTASY

SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE

SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN ASSURANCE

I know eis/INTO what/WHO I believe @TheologyNerd

J.

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What I believe.

~John 5:24
The Lord declares that whoever hears His word and believes in the One who sent Him has eternal life and does not come under judgment and has passed from death into life, where has is echei in the present active indicative expressing a real and continuing possession, and has passed is metabebēken in the perfect active indicative showing a completed transition with abiding results grounded in the cross.

~John 10:28
Jesus states that He gives eternal life, didƍmi in the present active indicative revealing continuous action from the Shepherd, and He says they shall never perish, the double negative ou mē creating the strongest possible negation in Greek, and He adds that no one will snatch them out of His hand, harpasei in the future active indicative promising irreversible divine grip.

~John 6:37
The Lord says all whom the Father gives Him, didƍsin in the present active indicative, will come to Him, erchetai in the present middle indicative, and the one who comes He will never cast out, ou mē ekbalƍ, with ekbalƍ in the aorist subjunctive under the ou mē form expressing absolute negation of rejection.

~John 6:39
Jesus affirms that the Father’s will is that He lose nothing, apolesƍ in the aorist active subjunctive under a purpose clause that functions as a divine guarantee, and that He will raise it up on the last day, anastēsƍ in the future active indicative expressing certain fulfillment.

~Romans 8:1
Paul announces there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, with is expressed by estin, present active indicative, marking a present and ongoing state of non condemnation grounded in the completed work of the crucified Christ.

~Romans 8:30
Those whom He predestined proƍrisen in the aorist active indicative He also called ekalesen aorist active indicative and those He called He also justified edikaiƍsen aorist active indicative and those He justified He also glorified edoxasen aorist active indicative, and the aorist chain shows the entire saving work viewed as one completed divine action from God’s perspective, with glorified placed in the aorist because God’s purpose cannot fail.

~Ephesians 1:13
Paul says you heard the word of truth, akousantes aorist active participle, you believed, pisteusantes aorist active participle, and you were sealed, esphragisthēte in the aorist passive indicative, meaning God Himself stamped you with His Spirit in a completed action that rests on His initiative not yours.

~Ephesians 1:14
The Spirit is the pledge, arrabƍn, meaning down payment guaranteeing full inheritance, with is estin present active indicative expressing an ongoing guarantee until full redemption.

~Ephesians 4:30
Believers are told not to grieve the Spirit by whom they were sealed, esphragisthēte aorist passive indicative, until the day of redemption, eis hēmeran showing movement toward a divinely appointed end, making the sealing an unbroken line from conversion to final redemption.

~Philippians 1:6
Paul declares he is confident, pepeismenos perfect passive participle indicating settled and enduring persuasion, that He who began enarxamenos aorist middle participle the good work in you will bring it to completion, epitelesei future active indicative, showing the God who started the work is the God who finishes it.

There’s more.

J.

85

Hence


 the Scriptures do not leave us trembling in the dark because John writes in ~1 John 5:13 that these things were written so that you may know eidēte perfect active subjunctive that you have echete eternal life, the perfect form of eidƍ stressing settled, abiding knowledge, not guesswork and not emotional fluctuation, and this knowledge rests on the cross where the Son came elthen and gave edƍken us life, not on human effort, so Jesus proclaims in ~John 5:24 that whoever hears akouƍn and believes pisteuƍn present active participles describing continuous faith has echei eternal life right now and has passed metabebēken perfect active indicative from death into life with the perfect tense marking a completed transfer that continues to stand, and this certainty is sealed by the Spirit who sealed esphragisthēte us in ~Ephesians 1:13 aorist passive indicative, His act, not ours, marking us as God’s possession and guaranteeing the inheritance arrabƍn until the day of redemption, while ~1 John 5:11 says the testimony is this that God gave edƍken us eternal life and this life is estin in His Son, an objective reality resting on the crucified and risen Christ, so assurance is not an internal feeling but a revealed certainty, a Spirit sealed reality, a Christ centered promise, and a Father given guarantee, therefore the believer knows not hopes, not fears, not gropes in uncertainty but knows with Spirit wrought conviction that eternal life is already theirs because the cross accomplished what no flesh could accomplish and the Word declares what no doubt can overturn.

1Jn 5:13 Our Assurance of Eternal Life
¶ These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Eph 1:13 in whom also you, when you heard [*This participle (“hearing”) and the following one (“believing”) are understood as temporal] the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This is a message someone urgently needs to hear.

J.

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I have assurance and confidence of my salvation: Christ died for me, and I am His. God proclaimed His Name on Me in my baptism.

But I don’t believe in OSAS, I believe in the security of the Gospel. As such the passages you cite, I affirm.

Back when I did believe in OSAS, however, I lived with a great amount of fear and lacked confidence in my salvation.

Let’s get some direct answers to questions though.

You have known a Christian brother for many years, but that brother comes to you and tells you some time later that they no longer are a Christian. It’s not a momentary crisis of faith or period of doubt–but rather they have fully and totally rejected their Christian faith, and they do not believe in Jesus anymore.

Are they saved? Were they ever saved? Are they, or were they even ever, your brother? How would you answer this?

I don’t think there’s a single Christian out here who hasn’t known someone who was a believer, but no longer is–and I believe it is incredibly damaging and ultimately denies assurance if we say “They were never a believer” “They were never saved”.

87

This is the difference between me and you, I don’t “trust” in my “baptism”

Brother, what you call the “security of the Gospel” is precisely the objective guarantee of salvation rooted in Christ’s finished work, not in human effort, because the verbs in ~John 10, ~Ephesians 1, and ~1 John 5 show eternal life as a present possession, sealed by the Spirit, given by the Father, and unbreakable; it is a security that rests entirely on Christ and the promise of God, not on our fluctuating faith or performance, and this is what Scripture consistently portrays as true assurance.

As here, that experience highlights exactly why Scripture anchors assurance not in self but in Christ and His work; the security of the believer is not a fragile human feeling but a settled reality grounded in the cross, the resurrection, and the Spirit’s sealing, so fear is removed not by clinging to our own performance but by trusting the objective promises of God that declare eternal life is already ours in Him.

[quote=“TheologyNerd, post:86, topic:2314”]
You have known a Christian brother for many years, but that brother comes to you and tells you some time later that they no longer are a Christian. It’s not a momentary crisis of faith or period of doubt–but rather they have fully and totally rejected their Christian faith, and they do not believe in Jesus anymore.

Are they saved? Were they ever saved? Are they, or were they even ever, your brother? How would you answer this?

Very simple.

Scripture is clear that true salvation is evidenced by enduring faith and fruit, not mere profession or outward association, because Jesus teaches in Matthew 7 that the one who does not bear fruit the Father will cast away, and the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 shows that those whose root never penetrates the soil, who fall away under trials, were never truly regenerated. If someone fully and finally rejects Christ, it demonstrates that the Spirit never truly took residence in their heart, for the verbs in the Greek like ekbalƍ, to be cast out, show the difference between those superficially connected and those genuinely rooted. They were never truly saved, and while they may have been your acquaintance or even called brother in the fellowship sense, they were never spiritually your brother in Christ, because the enduring relationship with Christ defines real kinship, not mere outward association or historical connection. Salvation is a living relationship, Spirit-sealed and fruit-bearing, and rejection proves it never took root.

How would you answer?

J.

88

Scripture is clear that true salvation is evidenced by enduring faith and fruit, not mere profession or outward association, because Jesus teaches in Matthew 7 that the one who does not bear fruit the Father will cast away, and the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 shows that those whose root never penetrates the soil, who fall away under trials, were never truly regenerated. If someone fully and finally rejects Christ, it demonstrates that the Spirit never truly took residence in their heart, for the verbs in the Greek like ekbalƍ, to be cast out, show the difference between those superficially connected and those genuinely rooted. They were never truly saved, and while they may have been your acquaintance or even called brother in the fellowship sense, they were never spiritually your brother in Christ, because the enduring relationship with Christ defines real kinship, not mere outward association or historical connection. Salvation is a living relationship, Spirit-sealed and fruit-bearing, and rejection proves it never took root.

So is this person my “brother?”

Like I’ve said, I KNOW eis/into Whom and what I believe @TheologyNerd

SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN ASSURANCE(1

JOHN’S USE OF THE VERB “BELIEVE”

John primarily combines “believe” with PREPOSITIONS

eis means “into.” This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus.
into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)
into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42)
into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)
into the One He has sent (John 6:28-29)
into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)
into Jesus (John 12:11)
into Light (John 12:36)
into God (John 12:44; 14:1)

ev means “in” as in Mark 1:15; John 3:15

the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION (John 4:50; 1 John 3:23; 5:10)

hoti, which means “believe that,” gives content as to what to believe. Some examples are
Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)
Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24,28; 13:19; 18:8)
Jesus in the Father and the Father in Him (John 10:38)
Jesus is the Christ (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)
Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)
Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)
Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, “I Am” (John 8:24; 13:19)
Biblical faith is in both a person and a message! It is evidenced by obedience (see SPECIAL TOPIC: KEEP), love (see SPECIAL TOPIC: LOVE), and perseverance (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE.

SPECIAL TOPIC: BELIEVE, TRUST, FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE GOSPEL

What about sanctification, how would you explain this?

What EXACTLY is your assurance, according to Scripture?

J.

89

Is what you are typing here Scriptural?

Since


 this is an emotional appeal rather than a textual one, and Scripture asks us to ground our conclusions in what God has revealed rather than in the pain we feel when someone walks away.

Correct?

J.

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saved? saved from what ? fact is there is one thing that ,in time ,is going to get you . like it or not chances are you are going to die. some one will dig to make a hole in the earth the dead body will be put into the hole and the dirt will then fill in the space above the body . or the dead body is cremated. the ash is disposed of .

Jesus did say there would be a resurrection of the dead ,they would live again ,THEY would then be truly saved , saved from death , to live again 
.and then if they live correctly ,to go on living .

91

i wanna know the samething :blue_heart:

92

top right hand side

:left_speech_bubble:

icon

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Good question brother.

You asked when a believer receives the seal of the Holy Spirit, and the grammar of the New Testament does not leave this open to opinion, because Paul answers it with precise syntax and morphology. The foundational text is ~Ephesians 1:13 in the Berean Bible, where Paul writes en hƍ kai humeis akousantes ton logon tēs alētheias to euangelion tēs sƍtērias humƍn en hƍ kai pisteusantes esphragisthēte tƍ Pneumati tēs epangelias tƍ Hagiƍ. The two participles akousantes and pisteusantes are aorist active nominative plural masculine, indicating completed coordinated actions, meaning when you heard and when you believed. They function as antecedent circumstances to the main verb esphragisthēte, which is an aorist passive indicative second plural. The aorist passive morphology shows a decisive divine action done to the believer, not by the believer, and the indicative mood marks it as a real historical event. The seal is not later, not subsequent, not conditional, but simultaneous with believing. The structure is linear. You heard, you believed, you were sealed. Paul gives no syntactical room for a second stage.

This same pattern appears in ~Galatians 3:2 where Paul asks rhetorically, did you receive the Spirit ek ergƍn nomou ē ex akoēs pisteƍs. The verb elabete is aorist active indicative second plural, again pointing to a decisive reception that took place at the moment of faith that comes through hearing. The grammar rejects any idea that believers wait for a later seal. The Spirit is given at conversion, meaning at the moment of hearing and believing the gospel of Christ crucified and risen.

Paul strengthens this further in ~Galatians 4:6 where he writes, because you are sons God sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying Abba Father. The verb exapesteilen is aorist active indicative, God sent, not will send. The sonship language is relational and immediate. The Spirit is the mark of belonging. It does not come after some later discipleship stage. It comes because you are sons, and you are sons through faith in Christ. No text says otherwise.

In ~Romans 8:9 Paul uses the present indicative eite de Pneuma Theou oikei en humin, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. The verb oikei is present active indicative, expressing ongoing dwelling, and Paul explains that anyone who does not have the Spirit does not belong to Christ. There is no category in Paul’s theology for a believer who is unsealed or Spiritless. Belonging to Christ and having the Spirit stand together as one reality. The present tense emphasizes continuance, but the theological assumption is that the Spirit entered at conversion when the believer was united to Christ.

The cross stands behind this entire doctrine. The sealing of the Spirit is the direct result of the redemptive work of Christ, which Paul explains in ~Ephesians 1:7, where we have redemption through His blood. The perfect work of Christ produces the decisive sealing of the Spirit upon faith. The verbs carry the weight of the theology. Christ redeems, the Father seals, and the Spirit indwells.

Even ~Acts 10 confirms this grammar in narrative form. While Peter is preaching Christ crucified and risen, the Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household. The verb epesen in ~Acts 10:44 is aorist active indicative, meaning the Spirit fell decisively while they heard the message. Again hearing, believing, and Spirit reception collapse into one moment. Peter interprets this in ~Acts 11 by saying that God gave the Spirit to them just as to us at the beginning, and he anchors it in their believing. There is no gap between faith and seal.

Paul returns to this again in ~2 Corinthians 1:22 where the verb sphragisamenos appears, aorist middle participle, describing God as the one who sealed us and gave the Spirit in our hearts as the arrabƍn, the pledge. The aorist morphology again indicates a completed action. You are not waiting for a future moment. The seal is already in place because the gospel has already been believed.

So at what point does a believer receive the seal of the Spirit. Scripture answers with one voice. At the moment of faith. At the moment the heart hears and believes the gospel. At the moment Christ’s saving work is applied. The grammar refuses later stages. The syntax rejects layered statuses. Nowhere in Scripture is there a believer who is unsealed. Not one text teaches delayed sealing, and every place Paul addresses the Spirit’s arrival, the aorist verbs place it at conversion.

God bless

J.

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Then assurance is gone. Because I can’t have assurance if my faith is fake, if the Holy Spirit does not live in me.

What’s the difference between a person who is actually saved vs a person who merely thinks they are saved?

This is a genuine question. If two people claim to believe in Jesus, they are equally as zealous for the Lord, they both are devoted to working down at the soup kitchen because Christ said to love our neighbor–but if 50 years later one of them stopped believing then that one was never saved to begin with. But here and right now, in this moment where both are in every way identical, not 50 years from now; there’s simply no way to tell the difference.

So then where’s the assurance? How can I know, right in this moment, that I am saved?

That yes, they were a brother in Christ, but they have now rejected the Lord and are no longer secure in Him–they have made shipwreck of their faith and so the path forward is a return to Christ. To come back, repent, and be restored. God’s promises made to them in their baptism were not false, the faith they had in Jesus wasn’t fake faith, it was real. They belonged to Jesus, but they have abandoned the Good Shepherd, they have jumped overboard from the safety of the ship into the dangerous tempest waters below and will be dashed against the rocks unless they come back into the safety of Christ. They need to return to faith.

If I were to ask you, right now, how you know that you have actual faith and it’s not pretend, how would you know? All the Scripture you would provide, I would point to and say “Yes, assurance, security, God’s promises” But those apply right now, even to those who in 20 years turn away. Right now, look to Christ. Right now, trust in your baptism.

I know you say you don’t trust in your baptism. But you should. You should look to where God speaks and acts. In your baptism you were washed of your sins and united to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Baptizatus Sum is a holy declaration that every Christian ought to source their confidence from. How do I know I belong to Jesus? Baptizatus Sum. I am baptized.

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if Jesus does not save you from death 



..you cant be saved

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96

Oh Brother, the answer has to stay welded to Scripture, not to a slogan, because nowhere in the Berean Bible does God ever command a believer to anchor assurance in water, and nowhere are we told to say baptizatus sum as the ground of confidence, so we turn the light back on the verses that actually state WHERE assurance rests and how God seals His people in Christ.

Paul says in ~Ephesians 1:13 that you heard the word of truth with akousantes in the aorist, you believed with pisteusantes in the aorist, and after believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit with esphragisthete in the aorist passive, meaning God Himself acted when the gospel was believed, not when water was applied, and the text gives the exact sequence, hearing, believing, sealing, and baptism is not placed anywhere inside that sequence as the point of regeneration or confidence.

Peter says in ~1 Peter 1:23 that you have been born again through the living and enduring word with anagegennemenoi in the perfect passive participle showing a completed work with ongoing results and the instrument of that new birth is the word, not the water, and the Spirit uses that word to convict and grant life because the Greek text ties regeneration to the message about Christ, not to the outward rite.

Jesus says in ~John 6:63 that the Spirit gives life with the verb zoopoiei in the present gnomic showing a timeless truth and the flesh profits nothing, and water is flesh in the sense of outward ritual, so the One who regenerates is the Spirit who applies the life giving power of the crucified Christ, and confidence must rest on Him, not on the sacramental act.

Paul says in ~Romans 5 that we have peace with God through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ with echomen in the present indicative showing an ongoing reality rooted in justification, and justification is repeatedly tied to faith apart from works in ~Romans 3 and ~Romans 4, and the water rite is never called the ground of peace or the ground of belonging, but faith in the crucified Christ is.

John says in ~1 John 5:13 that these things are written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life, and the knowing comes from the written testimony, not from baptism, ***

and the Spirit bears witness with our spirit in ~Romans 8 that we are children of God through the Spirit of adoption,

and again the text gives the ground for assurance as the Spirit’s inner witness and the word’s external testimony, not the water’s external application.

Paul explains in ~Colossians 2:12 that believers are buried with Christ in baptism and raised through faith with the clause dia tes pisteos showing faith as the instrument, so whatever baptism signifies operates only through faith, and the power is God who raises the dead, not the ritual, so confidence must always look to God who performs the inward work, not to the sign that points to Him.

Therefore the biblical answer is clear in one long unbroken line that no believer is ever told to say I know I belong to Jesus because I am baptized, rather every believer is told to say I know I belong to Jesus because I have heard His word, believed His gospel, been sealed by His Spirit, justified by His blood, and united to Him by faith in His cross, and that is the ground of assurance that Scripture puts forward, not one, not ever, tying assurance to water.

Correct @TheologyNerd ?

So, may I ask you plainly, how does the Holy Spirit co witness with our spirit, because ~Romans 8 shows the Spirit Himself testifying with the verb

summarturei

in the present durative form that He continually bears joint witness that we are children of God, and if assurance truly rests where Scripture places it, then we need a clear explanation of how that inward testimony operates in the believer’s life. Not so?

J.

97

I wasn’t planning on making this a debate about baptism. But I guess here we are.

”And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” - Acts 2:38

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” - Romans 6:3-4

“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.“ - Galatians 3:27

I’ll go with just these three passages to point to the obvious and biblical teaching that God attaches promises to baptism. The one who is baptized has their sins forgiven, receives the Holy Spirit, is united to Christ in His death and resurrection, is clothed with Christ.

These indelible promises of God are attached to baptism. You’re right, nobody should anchor their assurance in water, but in God’s word. God’s word is connected to the water. Thus you can trust your baptism where God spoke and acted on your behalf.

Yes, I belong to Jesus because I am baptized.

Not because of some subjective feeling in my heart which may or may not be the Holy Spirit. I have the Holy Spirit because God says I do, He says I do because I received the Spirit in my baptism, because I received the Spirit when the Gospel was preached, because God acted external to myself and gave me His gifts.

That is my assurance, in God’s promise. In God’s word. That is why you can trust your baptism.

But you can’t trust yourself. The Holy Spirit is not a feeling inside of myself, He is objectively present because God declares it is so.

That’s where assurance comes from: God’s own Faithfulness and Word.

And that, again, is why OSAS is a dangerous teaching that undermines assurance in Christ. It declares God’s word to be powerless.

I can trust in my baptism, because God stakes His Name and Honor on it, “baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit”. Because God Himself declares His own indelible promises attached to baptism: forgiveness of sins, receiving the Spirit, union to Christ’s death and resurrection. That’s all right there in the black and white text of Holy Scripture.

98

@TheologyNerd

I am not here to unsettle your confidence or weaken your assurance brother, nor am I trying to pull you into a debate about water baptism, my aim is simply to walk with you in the truth we both love.

J.

99

I think once saved always saved ! God will never leave nor forsake you ! :folded_hands:t4:

2 Likes
100

Absolutely 100 percent true. However, an honest question: do you feel one can willfully walk away? If so, does this then cause God to forcefully still keep them in salvation, and He will always be with them even if they reject Him?

I do believe that once you are saved, God will never leave nor forsake you. However, I am not sure what happens if someone walks away. I am currently praying for someone to return who was on fire for God, baptised, and even went on a missions trip to Quatamaula.

Her mother also accepted Christ and was baptised the same day. However, since her mother died, and her father got ill, she now openly states that she no longer believes in God and she wants nothing to do with Him.

I would LOVE to believe she is still saved. Therefore, I hope, and I truly hope, that I’m wrong. I’m really not convinced that once we are saved, there is nothing we can willfully do to lose our salvation.

This is not just for @msk but for anyone who wishes to jump in.

Peter