I would like to focus on the Answer to Jude 24-25, @SincereSeeker,
You misread Jude 24’s present tense
You assert that Jude 24’s “able to keep you from stumbling” is a “right-now reality”, not deferred promise, emphasizing God’s present power. This clearly ignores the verse’s doxological structure and context. The participle δυνάμενος denotes God’s inherent capacity, not a guarantee of immediate sinlessness. St Cyril of Jerusalem ties this to the second coming, as “God preserves us for glory, yet we strive in this life”. The phrase “to present you blameless” is oriented toward the final judgement, as St.Augustine afforms “Blamelessness is God’s gift at the end, not our possession now”. You claim that Jude promises a sinless walk now misreads the text’s eschatological telos.
Nice u brought up Sanctification and Glorification
You distinguish sanctification (present obedience) from glorification (future likeness) arguing that 1 John 3:2
s “we shall be like Him” pertains to glorification, not sanctification’s call. This is a partial truth. 1 John 3:2’s escahtological hope (“when He appears”) implies that full likeness to Christ, the sinless perfection, is not yet attained. As St.Gregory of Nyssa teaches “The soul’s ascent is incomplete until it beholds God”. Your assertion that believers can walk blamelessly now ignores the progressive nature of sanctification, which St.Maximus the Confessor describes as a “struggle against the gnomic will’s misdirection”. By conflating present obedience with sinless perfection, u undermine 1 John 3:2’s delay for full likeness.
Im sorry to say this, but ur misinterpreting Galations 5:16-17 You cite Galatians 5:16’s promise (“Walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh”) as evidence of expected victory but then u skip 5:17’s ongoing conflict as “The flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh”, St.Cyril of Alexandria interprets this as a “lifelong war”, not one-time triumph. Your claim that victory is expected ignores the text’s implication, the Spirit enables resistance, but the flesh’s pull persists as Council of Trent affirms regarding concupiscence. U assume Spirit’s power eliminates struggle, and this clearly contradicts the Scripture’s anthropology.
James 3:2
You argue that James 3:2 is descriptive and not prescriptive and point to the “perfect man” who controls his tongue is very wrong, and im surprised u said this. James 3:2’s universal scope (“We all”) includes believers as St/Bede notes. “Even the righteous stumble, yet seek grace”. The perfect man, in 3:2 is a hypothetical ideal, not present reality, as St. Thomas Aquinas clarifies “Perfection in speech is rare, for human nature falters”. Your attempt to downplay universal stumbling as non-normative, clashes with John 1:8’s insistence on ongoing sinfulness.
Coming at last to this, u said “the Spirit doesnt lose”, citing Romans 8:11. True, the Spirit’s power is invincible, but Romans 8:23 reveals believers “groan inwardly” for bodily redemption as St. John of Damascus explains “The Spirit’s first fruits abide, yet the body’s corruption persists”. Your theology assumes an immediate total victory ignoring th eschatological tension affirmed by St.Gregory Palamas that “Theosis is a pilgrimage through the passions”. By overstating the Spirit’s present triumph, u reject the Church’s nuanced anthropology.
Well, I will never say what God can’t do.
I believe @SincereSeeker had somethings to say on this subject. Read what she had to say and then let me know where you stand. If you like.
But here are my thoughts on the subject:
First, what is sinless perfection?
…
I agree that God is our righteousness…
He started his book and ended His book.
And we can be in His book too if we take ahold of His life, since He conquered death.
Jesus journey through this earthly sphere always doing what was pleasing to his father and His father never left Him alone.. That to me is my definition of sinless perfection; Having the father always with you.
There were 2 that I know. One walked with God and He was taken.
The Term justification onto life..meaning? Anyone know? ? ?
Perfection then to me is who you remain in..
For walking in the Spirit is when the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all unrighteousness
And if we stay there then the Love of God is perfected in us.
So with that said- here is my version of sinless perfection. God’s love perfected in us, Hence our perfection is tied to being wrapped up, tangled up in God’s word. Where we become like what we are invested in.
I believe Howard Thurman said it something like that.
So yes as long as you remain in His teachings you are being perfected, and who knows what will happen next sense none of us believe sinless perfection is possible. (one version of it)For we Know in scripture two men were taken and never died.mmmmmm???
Hence walking with God seems to be our perfection.
For our bodies are vessels that are suppose to be used for God’s work. When something is used for it’s intended purpose, continually that’s perfection, right?
So when God is seen in us that is perfection
Hence sinless perfection is a walk with God. And hence associated brings about assimilation.
So in this life there is no perfection outside of walking with God…
Sorry for rambling, but thinking outloud
Now someone mentioned earlier, I believe coined maybe by holiness church, the second work of grace.
So I hope we could get into that concept next.
Very good come back..
Nice work
So it beggs the question of the meaning of sinless perfection.
In this life.
Php 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Where an when does He experience the power of his resurrection?
This is what perfection means to me, being used as a vessel by God. Was Paul a " cast away" if not, why?
@Corelove13
Is this a response to something I said, or something you think I was implying? I honestly can’t figure that out.
You said:
Did I suggest otherwise to you? Or were you actually trying to respond to someone else?
I don’t want to ignore you, but I’m not inclined to respond if you were intending your "thinking-out-loud response to be aimed at someone else.
Sorry if I’m being dense
KP
I’m sorry if I offended you, that was definitely not my intent. So it hurts me for you to think that I would want to offend you.
Yes it’s best you ignore me, because I don’t like feeling I hurt someone, when I have no intentions of doing such. By your response, I’ll ignore you first if there is an ignore button. For I’m not trying to walk on rice and think what’s going on in the head of someone I don’t even know. Peace to you
dont worry my friend Corlove13 i understand, we all want a good discussion..Corlove13..we can learn and grow together, its a opportunity, at times in forum such “misconceptions” can take place, dont worry..I really adore the way u perceive and learn the scriptures.
Looking back It wasn’t for you..I must have deleted a screen and started typing to another. My bad.
Not that the statement was to say anyone thought that way, but it’s something we can never forget to remember that God can do more than we can ever asked or think.
Oh I thought you were Hillarious but..I probably eraced it because It wouldn’t have been right to say.
Now I say forgive me if that offended anyone.
no u didnt offend me in any way..idk abt others, depends on how they “view” it, ur welcome and im sure kpuff also welcomes u, for hes a kind hearted person…his posts are sublime, filled with kindness and empathy, and even at times when
i loose my cool, he doesnt, hes calm and honestly the best in this forum.
kpuff, u are in my heart.
No it was kpuffs response to Johann..I had typed “lol” and eraced it…but I guess when I returned I was responding to a post, that went to him. He was talking about disecting the colon…or something like that.
Now I’m more confused.
The post I was responding to was marked as a reply to me personally (you pushed the grey “reply” button at the bottom of my post to @Johann) but I couldn’t figure out how it was a response to something I had said to him. I was not offended, just confused. I was only asking for clarification.
Now, this post ( I"m replying to your post directly, I aslo pushed the grey “reply” button at the bottom of your post) but I’m unsure if your apology post was intended for me or someone else. I’m not offended, just confused.
If you want to reply to someone specifically about something they posted, push the grey “reply” button at the bottom their post. This marks your post as a reply to theirs, so people understand the flow of the thread. If you want to post to the whole thread, and not just to a specific person, push the Blue “Reply” button in the menu at the bottom of the thread, the blue “reply” button that follows the other buttons that are marked: “Share”, “Bookmark”, “Flag”, “Mark unread”
I think maybe this got messed up a bit. I’m happy to converse with you, I just don’t want to stick my nose into a conversation you are holding with someone else.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
KP
My bad, it wasn’t for you- my apologies. I’m here to learn and grow, so all my post are open to anyone that can help my understanding. 
We’re all in the process of learning @Corlove13 and none of us has it all figured out. But it’s interesting how quickly some people become “sensitive” when they’re the ones being asked the questions.
Stay strong in Christ Jesus.
Johann.
In thinking about the 2 who walked with God, if I recall correctly, and were taken. How do you suppose this scripture below has anything to do with it?
1 Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Does this look like sinless perfection?
Johann mentioned the tenses of salvation.
And Salvation has always meant deliverence or protection.
And in the tense that we are “being delivered,” saved
We are saved or delivered from present circumstances in this life. Question- is this deliverence as long as we remain in Christ?
But Now I’m getting out the bed and hope that we can discuss more on the " second work of grace; Sanctification and Empowerment by God for his work.
Also explain Hebrews 10:2
For then would not sacrifices have ceased to be offered? For worshipers once purged should have had no more consciousness of sins.
Also check out: Hebrews “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.”
Hi @Corlove13
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - “Sanctify you wholly” and “preserved blameless”
This isn’t sinless perfection in the Wesleyan sense. Paul isn’t saying believers reach flawless moral conduct before Christ returns. The Greek ὁλοτελής (holotelēs) means “complete in every part,” and ἀμέμπτως (amemptōs) is “blameless”, not “sinless,” but “unaccused” or “not disqualified.”
It’s judicial language. Paul’s prayer is that God Himself will complete the sanctifying work, not that we climb to sinless perfection, but that we be kept in the faith, undefiled by apostasy, until Christ’s parousia (coming).
So no, this verse doesn’t support sinless perfection as a second blessing. It emphasizes God’s preserving power, not human spiritual performance.
- Hebrews 10:2-“No more consciousness of sins”
Context is king, and Hebrews is swinging a theological sledgehammer here. The contrast is between the Old Covenant’s endless sacrifices and Christ’s once-for-all atonement. Under the Law, sacrifices reminded the people of sin year after year (v. 3). But Christ’s sacrifice actually purged the conscience (cf. 9:14).
So “no more consciousness of sins” doesn’t mean believers never feel conviction, it means no more condemnation, no more guilt-laden ritual to try to earn standing before God. The Greek συνείδησις ἁμαρτιῶν is about internal guilt, not daily awareness. You know your sins were real, but you also know they’re gone (Heb 10:17). The conscience is clean because the blood of Jesus actually did what bulls and goats never could: remove guilt.
- “Being saved” - Present deliverance
Yes - salvation is past (justified), present (being sanctified), and future (glorified). You asked, is that deliverance conditional on remaining in Christ?
Absolutely. Jesus in John 15:6 says, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away.” The present tense in 1 Cor. 1:18- τοῖς σωζομένοις (“those who are being saved”) - points to ongoing, lived-out faith. The “being saved” people are the abiding ones.
So yes- our present-tense deliverance is grounded in our union with Christ, and we remain secure as we remain in Him. That’s not works-righteousness; it’s covenant perseverance.
- Walking with God (like Enoch and Elijah)
You mentioned those two who were “taken.” They were examples of people who lived in intimate communion with God (Genesis 5:24, 2 Kings 2:11). Paul in 1 Thess 5 is praying that the Thessalonian believers would walk that same kind of blameless walk - not sinlessness, but steadfast covenant loyalty. God preserves those who walk with Him. But the One who walks with us now is Christ crucified and risen - we don’t walk alone.
Conclusion - Second Work of Grace?
Not as a distinct event like Holiness theology teaches. The New Testament doesn’t teach a two-stage Christian life. Sanctification isn’t a power-up - it’s the ongoing Spirit-led transformation of the believer (Romans 8:13–14, 2 Cor. 3:18), rooted in the cross, fueled by the resurrection, and aimed at glorification.
You want empowerment for God’s work? Then die daily (Luke 9:23), be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18), and let the cross kill your flesh. That’s not a second blessing. That’s the normal Christian life.
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“And the very God of peace” (autos de ho theos) and himself the God of peace", source of true peace, who abhors strife, division, contention, confusion, and clamor–to Him Paul prays down blessings from the Father upon the Thessalonian brethren, Jas_1:17-21; 1Co_14:33; Eph_2:14.
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“Sanctify you wholly” (hagiasai humas holoteleis) may he sanctify you complete", wholly or in every essence of your being, in every chamber or room of your tabernacle of life, 1Co_6:17-19; 1Co_9:26-27.
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“And I pray God your whole” (kai holokleron humon) “and your whole being”, (I pray God); as a newborn creature, man belongs to God, should be subject to Him in everything, 1Co_10:31.
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“Spirit and soul and body” (to pneuma kai he pusche kai to soma) “The spirit and the soul and the body”; this constitutes the whole of man, (a) the spirit of man, nearest like God, (b) soul (spirit, mind and conscience) and (c) the body, tabernacle of man’s soul and spirit. 3Jn_1:2.
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“Be preserved blameless” (amemptos) “blamelessly”, (teretheis) “may be kept or guarded”, without just charges of blame for wrong–such is real sanctification of life, 1Ti_4:5; 2Ti_2:21; 1Pe_3:15; 1Co_1:8.
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“Unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (ente parousia tou kuriou hemon lesou Christou) “at the body presence (appearing) of our Lord Jesus Christ,” 1Co_1:8; Mat_25:10; Luk_21:36.
https://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL07/VOL07B_introduction.html#:~:text=EVENTS%20SURROUNDING%20THE%20THESSALONIAN%20LETTERS
J.
Samuel_23, my friend, you’ve constructed a cathedral of nuance—but it’s built on a theological foundation that treats divine power like a pending transaction instead of a present inheritance. So let’s step back into the Word and see if it echoes your councils or rebukes them.
Jude 24 – Ability Isn’t Dormant
You claim Jude’s use of δυνάμενος (“able”) refers to a future hope, not a present reality. But here’s the thing: ability always implies availability unless context explicitly restricts it. Jude doesn’t say God will someday be able. He says God is able—now. That doxology is not just celestial window dressing; it’s a theological declaration of current divine capacity.
Yes, the phrase “to present you blameless” is eschatological—but His ability to keep you from stumbling isn’t. If you separate them completely, you break the verse’s backbone. The point is: God isn’t just preparing you for the presentation—He’s preserving you in the process.
If God can only someday keep you from stumbling, then Jude should’ve written, “He will one day enable you to stand,” not “He is able to keep you from falling.” The shift isn’t semantic. It’s a seismic theological downgrade.
1 John 3:2 – Likeness Later, Holiness Now
You say 1 John 3:2 delays likeness to Christ until the Second Coming. Yes, glorification is future. But John’s very next verse—1 John 3:3—says, “Everyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.”
That’s not future. That’s present tense purification in response to future glorification. John doesn’t say, “Wait around for the day you’ll be sinless.” He says, “Start living like the One you’re waiting for.”
So no, I’m not conflating sanctification and glorification. I’m refusing to treat sanctification like spiritual purgatory. The goal isn’t “gradual improvement.” It’s obedient transformation—right now.
Galatians 5:16-17 – Conflict Is Not Compromise
You say I skipped 5:17. Brother, I didn’t skip it—I slayed it. Galatians 5:17 acknowledges the war, but it never suggests defeat is inevitable. In fact, the entire thrust of the passage is this: the Spirit overcomes the flesh—not cohabits with it.
Read the context: “The works of the flesh are evident… those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (v.19–21). That’s not poetic struggle—that’s divine line-drawing. The same Paul who acknowledges inner war also commands crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal. 5:24). If the conflict proves defeat, then the gospel isn’t good news—it’s a polite truce.
James 3:2 – Description ≠ Doctrine
Yes, James says, “We all stumble.” But he also says, if someone doesn’t stumble in what he says, he’s a perfect man. That “if” is conditional, not sarcastic. And your claim that it’s merely hypothetical is not rooted in the text—it’s grafted on by tradition.
Let me ask: Would James exhort us to “bridle the whole body” if it were impossible? No. He’s setting a high bar because the Spirit empowers a high walk. Anything less turns the New Testament into divine mockery.
Romans 8:11 vs. 8:23 – Firstfruits Now, Fullness Later
Yes, we groan. Yes, the body awaits redemption. But don’t miss this: we already have the firstfruits. That’s not a half-Spirit—it’s the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, dwelling in us (Romans 8:11). That’s not an IOU. That’s resurrection real estate right now.
Your mistake is reading tension as defeat. The Church’s “nuanced anthropology” too often becomes a theology of tolerable bondage. But the Spirit doesn’t whisper “wait” when Scripture shouts “walk.”
So let me say it again—slow and sharp:
• The Spirit doesn’t lose.
• Holiness isn’t hypothetical.
• Grace doesn’t babysit sin—it buries it.
• And Jude 24 isn’t a lullaby. It’s a battle cry.
You can stumble—but you don’t have to. That’s not arrogance. That’s Gospel.
—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.
That’s the tension, isn’t it? You read that barrage of Spirit-drenched verbs, crucify, flee, put off, put on, overcome, walk blameless, and it sounds like sinless perfection. But here’s the punchline: Scripture never teaches sinless perfectionism, but it absolutely teaches sinless possibility by the power of the indwelling Spirit. That’s not semantics. That’s a sword’s edge.
Let’s break this down without watering it down.
Sinless perfectionism says you can’t sin.
Biblical sanctification says you don’t have to.
That’s not the same thing. One exalts man’s performance. The other exalts God’s power.
- The Tension Is Real, but It’s a Tension of Victory, Not Defeat
Yes, 1 John 1:8 warns, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.” That kills any notion that a believer becomes morally flawless.
But 1 John 3:6 answers back like a hammer: “No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning.” That verb tense (present active participle) means ongoing, habitual practice. John isn’t denying the possibility of stumbling-he’s denying the lifestyle of sin.
So yes, you can sin. But no, you are not enslaved to sin. That chain is snapped.
- The Spirit Doesn’t Empower Excuses, He Empowers Victory
Romans 8:13 doesn’t suggest a gradual, half-effective battle plan. It says, “If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” The verb “put to death” (θανατοῦτε, present active) means an ongoing pattern of execution, not tolerance. The Spirit is not your sin management coach. He’s your executioner of the old man.
This is not sinless perfectionism. This is Spirit-led mortification.
- The Gospel Doesn’t Babysit the Flesh, It Buries It
Galatians 5:24: “Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”
That’s not poetry. That’s past-tense victory with present-tense consequences. If the cross worked, then your old master died.
If that sounds too victorious, it’s only because we’ve been discipled into weakness.
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So What Do We Call It?
Not sinless perfection. That’s a strawman. Scripture calls it walking worthy (Eph. 4:1), being holy in conduct (1 Pet. 1:15), and living by the Spirit (Gal. 5:16). And the test isn’t flawless behavior. The test is fruit, faithfulness, and a crucified will. -
Bottom Line:
The Gospel doesn’t say, “You will never sin again.”
It says, “You never have to be ruled by it again.”
So if the possibility of a holy life sounds like perfectionism to you, maybe we’ve settled for a version of grace that covers sin but doesn’t conquer it.
Christ didn’t die to manage sin. He died to destroy it (Rom. 6:6).
And He didn’t rise to make us cope—He rose to make us walk.
J.
Don’t tell me you dropped the mic…lol
Yall are good, keep it coming…I know I’ll have to read this a couple of times..
…
My lean is toward sinless perfection, staying in the presence of God… To say that through remaining in Him that God cannot take away the urges or what have you, is to say He can’t do more than we can ever asked or think.
If you sin you have an advocate with the father, not when you sin.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
That means sin should be destroyed in our lives as we walk according to the Spirit.
Even the Spirit teaches that we should remain in Him..
Remain doesn’t mean to go in and out. It means to stay. And if you stay you are cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Has God given us the power through faith to remain in Him? Explain
Ah!
You’re swinging bold, but your doctrine isn’t landing clean. Let’s run this through Scripture’s fire, not fantasy.
First, sinless perfection this side of glorification is a lie cloaked in light. You say “remain” means sin dies completely?
John uses μένω (menō) in 1 John 2:6, yes, to “abide,” to “stay,” to “continue”-but abiding isn’t sinless existing, it’s Spirit-led resisting. The same John who commands abiding in Him also warns believers “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves” (1 John 1:8). Either he’s schizophrenic, or you are rewriting the epistle mid-sentence.
You argue, “Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.” True. And He did, on the cross (1 John 3:8, λῡ́σῃ, “to unbind, loose, break”). But newsflash: the same Spirit who breaks sin’s dominion (Romans 6:14) didn’t erase the believer’s capacity to sin (Galatians 5:16–17). The flesh still wars, still pulls, still must be crucified (Galatians 5:24). That verb isn’t passive, you’re commanded to kill it daily, not claim it’s already dead.
Now let’s get surgical with this line: “If you sin you have an Advocate, not when you sin.” That’s theological gymnastics. 1 John 2:1 says, “If anyone sins (ἁμάρτῃ, aorist subjunctive), we have an Advocate.” Not had, not used to, not until your next perfect streak breaks, but have (ἔχομεν, present active). You have Christ in the courtroom, not only for past charges, but for any future stumblings. That’s not license, that’s lifeline.
And what of “remaining cleansed”? You cite 1 John 1:7, “the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.” But again, καθαρίζει is present active, ongoing action. The blood keeps cleansing, not a one-time cosmic shower that makes you unsinable. You don’t become fireproof, you cling to Christ in the fire.
Finally, “Has God given us the power to remain in Him by faith?” Absolutely. But that power is not the removal of the struggle, it’s the resistance in the struggle (Ephesians 6:13, “having done all, stand”). Faith doesn’t make you flawless, it makes you faithful. And faithful saints stumble. Peter did. Paul did. You will. But what makes you a conqueror isn’t a spotless track record, it’s clinging to Christ, crucified and risen, when you fall.
The cross is not your stepping stone to sinless self-glory. It is your daily altar. Your only hope. Your Advocate’s blood cries louder than your best deeds ever could.
Now tell me, are you trusting your spotless behavior, or the slaughtered Lamb?
:10 “If we say” See note at 1 John 1:6.
“we have not sinned”
This is a PERFECT ACTIVE INDICATIVE which implies that one has never sinned in the past nor in the present. The term “sinned” is SINGULAR and refers to sin in general. The Greek term means “to miss the mark.” This means that sin is both the commission and the omission of the things revealed in God’s Word. The false teachers claimed salvation was related only to knowledge, not to life. They theologically separated justification and sanctification.
“we make Him a liar” The gospel is based on the sinfulness of all mankind (cf. Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:1; 11:32). Either God (cf. Rom. 3:4) or those who claim sinlessness, is lying.
“His word is not in us”
This involves the dual aspect of the term “logos,” both as a message and a person (cf. 1 John 1:1,8; John 14:6).
Utley
J.