I story told is a story earned. You first?
…AI?
…Apostolic?
German Baptist?
Tillman,
I… again… noticed you avoided the question:
Are you born again/born of God?
If so, how do you know?
Peace.
sixthseal
Mormon?
Former Amish?
Latterday Saints?
…is this the Pope? (Really. Are you?)
Not sure what I judged…or how I spoke falsely… Do enlighten me…Does the Christian Church as a whole embrace the Jehovah Witness doctrine?
Regardless… I can always be wrong. I don’t profess perfection. I apologize if I have offended you.
(Is thiis Sheldon…? Seriously, no one will know…)
Sixthseal
I appreciate you finally opening the Coffee Shop. I think better caffeinated (smile)
I also appreciate all the labor and dedication you have put into this subject. I’m sure none of us will regret a single minute we have devoted ourselves to understanding God through His Holy Word. A mark of a true disciple is dedication in submission to The Word of God.
I carefully read your posts, and I think I mostly follow your train of thought. I am very impressed, and encouraged in the way you have married intricacies of “The Law and The Prophets” (Old Testament) with revelations of eschatology. I especially appreciated how you paired up the seven feasts of the Law with the works of Jesus. Only The Holy Spirit could have taught you the patterns you have elucidated for us in your post. By that Spirit I think you have shed some wonderful light on “the mystery”, “which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, (Ephesians 3:5-6)
There are some things in your post(s) that I see a bit differently, but it may be only because I use certain terms differently, or I have grown up in a different environment, or maybe it’s just because I have more growing to do.
I’ll share one of the terms I think I use differently, and that is “parable”. I understand how common parlance uses the term, (“an easily relatable story to illustrate a deeper meaning”, or something like that) but I only use it in the way Jesus said he employed this method of teaching:
“ Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. (Matthew 13:13)
And
“All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matthew 13:34-35)
Since in the passage we are discussing, Jesus was teaching His disciples on the Mt of Olives, I think he was not using that particular literary device (the way I use the term) but was relating a similitude; a story that is “like” something else in some way. (I’m not criticizing other people’s definitions of this term, just stating how I use it, OK?) An important difference between a parable and a similitude is how the audience is expected to receive it. Consistently in Jesus’s teaching, similitudes are supposed to open-up more truth to the hearers; make truth more accessible. So, I don’t think the original hearers of this teaching of Jesus were expected to search and find the hidden meaning, but all the meaning was right on the surface, easy for the disciples to grab hold of. I think the simple equation for learning Truth is: Words spoken in a language in which the hearer is fluent, PLUS spoken by the originator of Truth, PLUS conveyed to the heart by the Holy Spirit EQUALS understanding.
So, now that you understand a little better where I am coming from, (that Jesus expected the meaning of His story to be easy to grasp by His disciples), that is why I asked about what those listening disciples heard in the story when Jesus said “10 virgins”. Like you, I believe strongly in the transcendent consistency of The Word of God; that a symbol, or a sign, or a figure of speech is used consistently throughout the whole of Scripture, “from leather to leather” as they say. So what came to the disciples mind when Jesus used “10 virgins” for the subject of His story? Ideas?
Some of the ways the number 10 is used in the Bible, (242 times).
The ten utterances: order out of chaos
The ten plagues: order to chaos
Ten commandments written in stone
The Passover lamb was selected on day 10 of the 1st month (Exodus 12:3)
Ten righteous not found in Sodom
10 toes of Daniel 2
10 horns of Revelation 13 and 17.
Ten Minas (Luke 19:11-27)
Ten talents (Matt 25:14-30)
KP
KPuff: This is outstanding insight on the matter. Many thanks for opening my eyes to this distinction.
I want to do your post justice. Allow me to get back to you.
Peace.
sixthseal
Brilliant. Agree 100%.
On the Mount of Olives, Christ spoke to His disciples: humble Hebrews (not the willfully blind He also dealt with). Therein, we have the distinction, and thus, the purpose for the parables on the Mount of Olives: to grant understanding (not mask it) through a fictious story (with relatable Hebrew symbols/language).
And in the Parable of the 10 Virgins, Christ drew upon the “language” that Hebrews could relate to by the following:
- The symbols that identify the Hebrews/Israel, established by the Lord God through the prophets’ Hosea, Jeremiah, and Moses: The Fig Tree, O Virgin of Israel, Midnight.
- The most significant (God-given) declaration in Hebrew/world history: the “10”* Commandments—written by the finger of God.
- The most significant sermon in Hebrew/world history: The Sermon on the Mount.
- The established Galilean/Hebrew tradition: The members of a wedding procession would carry their (oil fired) torches (in the night) through the streets to the wedding banquet—which is likened to the kingdom of Heaven—which the wise virgins enter. How? “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18:3, 4). Humility. The disciples heard this “Fuel/oil” for entry.”
- The literal context: Matthew 24: The Hebrew prophets’ Ezekiel, Joel, Isaiah, Daniel—and the most significant king in Israel’s history, King David—all of whom prophesied of the end of the exile for (humble) Hebrews: deliverance, gathering, redemption, restoration, and atonement (collectively). The parable is 100% Hebrew/Israel—and thus, easily accessible for humble Hebrews.
(Consider this: Put yourself in the disciples’ sandals. Imagine Christ speaking to His Hebrew disciples on the Mount of Olives—overlooking the temple… about “Church goers” (symbolized by virgins)?.. Church goers? Such a position… ripped out of the common language of the Hebrew context… won a popularity contest in Christian circles… sad testimony.)
Now, continuing with relatable Hebrew “language,” compare…
The Mount of Olives Parables (Matthew 25)/Mount of Olives: Day of the Ascension (Luke 24/Acts 1)
The Day of the Ascension
So when they had come together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know the times or the dates, which the Father has fixed by His own authority.” (Acts 1:6, 7)
The Kingdom of Israel/The Kingdom of Heaven/The Millennial Kingdom
The Hebrews were/are waiting for their Messiah, their King, to restore the kingdom of Israel. Thus, the parable, “Then the kingdom of Heaven shall be like ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom,” connects directly to the disciples’ question about the kingdom of Israel. The continuity is obvious.
The kingdom of Heaven becomes an unmistakable reality in the person of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (returning like a Bridegroom) to reign from Jerusalem over the restored kingdom of Israel—during the Millennial Kingdom.
Matthew 8: The Kingdom of Heaven: Abraham, Isaac & Jacob
“And I say to you that many will come from the east and west and will dine with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 8:11). Where? When? The Millennial Kingdom.
The Feast of Tabernacles
This prophetic reality—of the coming kingdom—was once hidden as a mystery in the Feast of Tabernacles. The Feast of Tabernacles recalls the Israelites dwelling in booths/tabernacles and God dwelling with them in the wilderness. It foreshadowed God again dwelling with His people (including us) through the personal presence of His Son: The Millennial Kingdom.
*“Ten” virgins are the “part” that symbolize the “whole”; “10” symbolizes the totality of who Christ is speaking about in the parable: the Hebrews.
“Ten” Commandments are the “part” that symbolize the “whole”: the entirety of the Commandments (613) and the “whole” Covenant. This is foundational—found in The Torah—established by the Father, which the Son drew upon in His parables (just as the Son drew upon the symbols, established by the Father).
Conclusion: The Parable of the 10 Virgins is an illustration with relatable symbols for Hebrews: a similitude, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of Heaven has been given to you [the disciples], but not to them” (Matt. 13:11).
Again, thank you KPuff.
Peace.
sixthseal
Sixthseal
Yes, I see and understand what you are presenting. I will try to respond more comprehensively tomorrow, if I get the oportunity.
For now, I’ll just say I think you are on track. You have considered the context of the setting in which this “revelation” was given; you understand the audience, the situatiion, the timing, and how it is an answer in response to a question that was presented. "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3) This kind of devotion is necessisary to “hear” with the “ears” that we have been granted.
Regarding this:
I do not have the same personal experience as you regarding other peoples intrepretation of this portion. I’m sure I’ve heard some, but “popularity” of an idea has never been much of a barometer of truth for me. In fact, often the “popularity” of an idea is one criteria that makes it suspect (to me anyway). (i.e. “…Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14) I appreciate that you chose the “difficult way” on this passage.
More later (Lord Willing)
KP
,
Ok, so if the carrying away to Babylon represents Israel being blinded or sleeping (for both the wise and foolish). And for the wise it was for their benefit and the foolish for their destruction.
Where then do the wild grapes that were grafted into the vine come in? Are the gentiles the rotten figs, or do those branches who are grafted in equate to good grapes, figs, or olives?
Do the branches who are not high minded, and not broken off, simply become part of Israel? Do you see them also returning from captivity? He who is a Jew inwardly, meaning one who gives praise to God, or they who are Hebrew meaning those who have crossed over, and not necessarily of Israeli descent.
How much weight are you applying to the natural born Jews?
Hello AJ32,
Thank you for your interest and questions.
Before I respond, let me ask: I’d like to know if we are on the same page regarding the subject of the 10 Virgins.
Can you share where we agree on the parable?
In essence, I’m curious if we have common ground to work from.
Peace.
sixthseal
I’m kind of methodical by nature, (so I’m still working through everything) but off the top of my head; I agree about the virgins representing the whole house of Israel (I’m just unsure of where the gentiles fit in). I agree about the figs in Jeremiah, I agree about midnight and the Passover, I think that I may agree about the number 10 being part of the whole. I’m still needing to go over the seven feasts, and I’ve been studying the Hebrew roots of the word oil to discover it’s origins. I agree that humility and oil have a strong connection, but am viewing it as a partial truth and have much more to discuss on the subject of oil. I am still wrapping my head around what you’ve presented, but you have my attention. Thanks for that.
This is one of my favorite passages, and I believe that it is absolutely key to understanding scripture.
Yes! AJ32. God bless you for placing warranted emphasis on the declaration of our Lord God.
And when we look at the Parable of the 10 Virgins, it makes perfect sense Jesus would follow the lead of His Father (as Jesus did throughout His ministry):
“For I have not spoken on My own authority, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)
Since you do embrace the Father’s declaration, does that translate into you embracing the Father’s declaration regarding symbols?
Hosea 9
“Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season, I saw your fathers.” (Hos. 9:10)
Jeremiah 24
… “Thus says the Lord the God of Israel: Like these good figs, so I will acknowledge those who are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. For I will set My eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land. And I will build them up and not pull them down. And I will plant them and not pluck them up. I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.”
“But as the rotten figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so rotten, says the Lord, so I will forsake Zedekiah the king of Judah and his officials, and the rest of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt.” (Jer. 24:5-8)
Jeremiah 31
“The Lord has appeared to him from afar, saying:
‘Indeed, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you. Again I will build you and you will be built, O virgin of Israel. You will again be adorned with your tambourines and shall go forth in the dances of those who make merry.’” (Jer. 31:3, 4)
Exodus 12
“At midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt.” (Exod. 12:29)
If you do embrace the Father’s symbols, do you embrace the Son following the pattern of the Father’s symbols in the Parable of the 10 Virgins?
As these symbols are also prophetic in nature (in the parable), do you see Christ employing them to elucidate His second coming to Israel?
My position is this: In our quest to understand the Parable of the 10 Virgins, our honest response before Christ is to look to His Father. How do you feel about that?
Regarding your questions, I addressed the rotten figs symbol: The Father’s declaration is unmistakable. I’ll address other questions after I hear from you.
Fair enough?
Peace.
sixthseal
Yes, I am leery of symbols in general since they are loved by the world and so common in paganism. They were forbidden for a reason, “make no image” however they were also allowed to be used in the temple for a reason. The Lord commanded the use of Cherubims and pomegranates and palm trees etc. in his tabernacle and temple. Indeed all things declare his glory in this world, the earthly declaring the heavenly and we are “without excuse” if we do not recognize it.
The Hebrew language itself is based on ancient pictographs and each letter has its own meaning. When two are joined they form a family, when three are put together they form a child, and all of the words are related like the 12 tribes of Israel each sharing their own interrelated story.
If you do embrace the Father’s symbols, do you embrace the Son following the pattern of the Father’s symbols in the Parable of the 10 Virgins?
As these symbols are also prophetic in nature (in the parable), do you see Christ employing them to elucidate His second coming to Israel?
Yes, absolutely.
My position is this: In our quest to understand the Parable of the 10 Virgins, our honest response before Christ is to look to His Father. How do you feel about that?
The way I see the Father and the Son is a constant learning experience, that will one day by His grace and mercy, culminate when I see the face of God. Jesus walked the earth as the physical manifestation of the father. He is and was and evermore shall be God in a body.
The Father is who we would see if man were able to see God without a body, or what we would see if we could have looked inside of the heart of Jesus. They are one, and we are taught to also be one with Him and ourselves by his power. Not to be divided in heart, however the soul and spirit should be divided by the Word of God for clarity, and is critical if we are living a life that is daily crucified. We are able to be divided just as he was who made us in His own image.
The oil belongs on the head, just as our spirit unified with the Spirit of our Father should be the one leading us, our souls being unified in submission. The oil on our heads symbolize this but is also a symbol of that work of God in our hearts.
Jesus came to show us this pattern being crushed as an olive, or grape in painful and humiliating fashion, and thereby crushing the serpents head, and showing us the way to victory over sin and death and he who had the power of death, salvation, atonement, and the way of forming a new covenant with God.
He yielded up his Spirit to the Father and was hung out to dry on the cross, relinquishing his blood which contained his soul. His body and soul that new no sin became sin but was still exactly the same as the Spirit of the Father and so even though he was dead, yet he lived, even though the Father had forsaken him, yet he was with him.
This is this nature of God which boggles the minds of men and angels, and is a stumbling block to those who have not been born again.
Hell and the grave could not hold him, the tomb being like an oven baking our unleavened bread, a well of living water, a place a seed is planted and the tender herb with the dew of heaven, the rod that budded, THE BRANCH, and on and on, the world not being able to contain the books were they written, a door to death that brings new life, baptism being a symbol of these things.
The Lamb of God roasting on the wood of the cross, just as Abraham bound Issac laying him on the wood. Just as Jesus himself killed and skinned the animal to clothe Adam and Eve, his righteousness hangs on our shoulders because of his willingness to be skinned alive for us.
And it is this pattern that he came to show us, to be crushed like olives in order to release the precious oil that anoints our heads and lights our lamps, just as the Father anointed the Son, and they are one.
I am very interested in understanding the patterns that he has laid out for us to follow, and the scripture undoubtedly is full of His symbolism, the old being fulfilled by the new.
Amen! AJ32: You have an excellent grasp of the subject. Thank you for that post.
Frankly, we are all looking back 2000+ years, seeking to understand not only symbols but the literal fulfillment of what the Lord God foreordained.
I’ll respond to your questions in my next post.
Peace.
sixthseal
I very much appreciate the depth of your interest in this most dramatic subject.
Regarding the mystery in the 7 holy days, I published a book–The Mystery of God–which is also free online on my website. And it, of course, covers The Torah to the Book of Revelation.
If an administrator gives me the green light, I’ll post my website in this thread. Then, have at it… The entirety of the site is free.
Peace.
sixthseal
You asked a series of good questions, and I’ll look to respond to them in this one post.
To establish common ground: The house of Jacob (the Twelve Tribes) entered into a covenant relationship with the Lord God at Mount Sinai—after the Exodus. The house of Jacob—likened to an Olive Tree—witnessed “broken branches” due to the broken Covenant:
- “The Lord called your name, ‘A green olive tree, fair in fruit and form.’ With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire upon it, and its branches are broken. For the Lord of Hosts, who planted you, has pronounced disaster against you, because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal.” (Jer. 11:16, 17)
This is not the end of the story for the Olive Tree. Christ gave revelation to Paul regarding the mystery for Israel; it continues the story given to Jeremiah (adding the Gentiles, the Wild Olive Shoot):
- “For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Rom. 11:24)
The Mystery for Israel: Fulfilled
3. For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. (Rom. 11:25-27)
With all proper respect, who exactly on planet Earth today comprises the house of Jacob/the Cultivated Olive Tree, and who will be redeemed is God’s job to decipher. To my knowledge, Scripture doesn’t afford us that dimension of discernment. Elijah—a renowned prophet of God—didn’t even have that dimension of discernment—not being able to identify his own people who were faithful:
- I [Paul] say then, has God rejected His people? God forbid! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and destroyed Your altars. I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what is the divine reply to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” (Rom. 11:1-4)
Ultimately, the world will witness the redeemed house of Jacob—gathered by Christ—at the time of the second coming to Israel—fulfilling the prophecy in Luke: “He will reign over the [redeemed] house of Jacob forever. And of His kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1:33). Then—and only then—will the “world” recognize the true, redeemed house of Jacob/the Cultivated Olive Tree.
Finally, then, as Joel & Zechariah prophesied:
“So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. Then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.” (Joel 3:17)
“And the LORD will be king over all the earth. In that day it will be— ‘The LORD is one,’ and His name is one…. Then it will be that all the nations who have come against Jerusalem and survived will go up each year to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles [during the Millennial Kingdom–fulfilling the mystery once hidden in this holy day].” (Zech. 14:9, 16)
Peace.
sixthseal
1 Like
Tillman… I didn’t ignore you… I just realized you had a f/up post while I searched for AJ32’s questions.
Let’s just move on from that exchange.
Firstly, no, I’m not Sheldon.
Frankly, I don’t know anyone named Sheldon.
If an administrator lets me post my website, you will have your answer:)
Peace.
sixthseal
Not neccessary revvel. Anyone can Google your cut and paste posts from other Forums
Hello MrE
Thank you for your prompt response!
Please know–unless my memory is failing me–I’ve never posted my website on any forum thread…
There you have it…
sixthseal
Sixthseal
I told you I’d respond further, but I have had some difficult days which have delayed my ability to keep my intentions. Please forgive my tardiness.
I am inclined to focus, in my response, on all the ways that I sense unity; agreement in how The Lord, through The Holy Spirit has brought us both into the knowledge of His will. There are a couple of things in your post that I still don’t follow, I don’t understand how you arrived at your personal understanding, but those items are insignificant, and likely due to my dullness, and lack of growth in that area.
I am curious to understand why this particular similitude is so important to you personally. I see you have chosen an online handle that speaks of your identity with the opening of the sixth seal in the “Revelation of Jesus” which you say is germane. You also spoke disparagingly of others who have not understood this specific similitude in the same way, or in the same depth as you have. There are so many portions of scripture that have suffered from a similar popular misinterpretation and are often egregiously misrepresented that I’m trying to understand what makes this one stand-out in your mind; stand-out in such a way as to provoke you to crusade for a better exegesis. You don’t need to explain it to me, but I was just curious.
I did want to point out how insightful I found your comment:
It is rare to read, in forums such as this, an understanding of the trajectory of history, since the beginning of time. All of history has been moving toward God redeeming His chosen, freeing them from slavery, bringing them “out of exile”, and conveying them into His promise (promised land). The Kingdom of heaven is our Promised eternity. The remnant of Israel who have not forgotten God, and who remain faithful to Torah have never let this thought out of their minds. Unlike most gentiles, Israel does not dream of going to heaven when they die, or one day getting to live in a celestial mansion, or gaining a new healthy body; Israel hopes for the restoration of the earth, with God on the throne, every knee bowing, every tongue confessing. They believe God when he says:
“I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.” (Isaiah 45:23)
One day, God will return to rule, and all other rulers will be put down. As you say, He will gather, deliver, restore, redeem, His kingdom. He will sit on His rightful throne in righteousness, and all other powers will acknowledge His rule. The kingdom of heaven will be the kingdom of earth, “on earth as it is in heaven”. I am confident this is what his disciples were hoping Jesus would do immediately. They have been waiting for it for thousands of years. This Jesus is this rightful King, He is the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords. Those Jewish disciples wanted to know:
“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3) When will you take your rightful seat over all creation? The siimultude you have illuminated for us is His answer to their long awaited hope.
Thanks Sixthseal for reminding us of this reality.
1 Like