@KPuff said on the other PoE thread - “At the core of our discussion is the idea of deception, and man’s capacity to be swayed by it.”
Great observation. One that again forces us to examine the fundamental constitution of humans that God created and called “very good”. Why didn’t God give us a “truth detector”? Or if He did, why doesn’t it always work? Why are we so easily deceived?
Why would God create humans in this condition and call it very good?
I think its because God created us with agency, the right to choose and what’s also known as free will. In the case of Eve, she knew second hand what God’s command was but His command didn’t weigh on her as much as the serpent’s enticement. Because she didn’t hear it first hand from God but through her husband, the serpent was able to deceive her thinking. She reasoned (incorrectly) that the fruit would make her wise, pleasant to the eye and was good for food. She bought into the deception because of this. It appealed to her.
Adam had no such excuse. God spoke the command directly to him. He knew he was being disobedient to that command when he ate the fruit. He ate it anyways.
Why are we so easily deceived? I take that to mean today. There are different reasons. Lack of knowledge of God’s word is one reason. Self deception is another. We want it so we justify it to ourselves for that reason. I’m sure there’s other reasons.
Why would God create humans in this condition and call it good? Without the ability to make choices which includes choosing Him or not choosing Him, we’re just robots. We are to love God, but love that’s not freely given, what do you call that? For love, and obedience out of that love to be worth something, it has to come from someone willingly. That’s my take. Nice question!
Truth vs. Lies
As believers, we need to recognize the critical importance of discerning between truth and lies/deception. The Bible serves as our guide, illuminating the pathway of what is true and right. When we recognize that God’s word is unwavering and eternal, we find comfort in His promises. Despite the confusion around us, we must cling firmly to the truth. The temptation to follow deceptive ways can be strong, but our faith encourages us to stand firm and stay resolute. By grounding ourselves in Scripture, we can develop a solid foundation, making it easier to differentiate between what is true and what is false. It is essential to remember that even the most convincing arguments can be deceitful, and that is why we must constantly seek God’s wisdom in every situation. We should rejoice in the truth and protect ourselves from the lies that seek to lead us astray.
1 John 1:8
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” – 1 John 1:8
John 8:44
“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.” – John 8:44
2 Corinthians 11:14
“And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” – 2 Corinthians 11:14
Proverbs 12:19
“Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue lasts only a moment.” – Proverbs 12:19
Matthew 24:4
“Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you.'” – Matthew 24:4
The Deception of the World
As Christians, we face various challenges and temptations from the world around us that can lead us away from God’s path. The media, societal pressures, and even peer influences can cloud our judgment and create doubt. The Bible warns us against the deceptions that surround us and reminds us to remain steadfast in our faith. It is crucial for us to focus on God’s Word and lean not on our own understanding. When we find ourselves enveloped in worldly opinions, we must strive to hold onto truth by immersing ourselves in Scripture, allowing it to shape our thoughts and actions. By remaining vigilant and discerning, we can resist the pull of the world’s deceit and stand firm in our belief, grounded in our faith.
James 1:22
“Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” – James 1:22
1 Timothy 4:1
“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.” – 1 Timothy 4:1
Romans 16:18
“For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.” – Romans 16:18
Psalm 119:104
“I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore I hate every wrong path.” – Psalm 119:104
Colossians 2:8
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.” – Colossians 2:8
Spiritual Discernment
God has graciously provided us with the gift of the Holy Spirit, who plays a crucial role in guiding us through life’s uncertainties and deceptions. As we grow in our faith, we learn the importance of seeking discernment in our thoughts and actions. This enables us to recognize when something doesn’t align with God’s Word or His plans for us. By praying earnestly for wisdom, we cultivate a heart that is receptive to His guidance. The more we familiarize ourselves with Scripture, the sharper our discernment becomes. This is essential in a world where false messages and ideas can easily entrap us. Relying on the Spirit’s leading gives us the confidence to reject deception and faithfully pursue the path God has laid out for us.
1 Corinthians 2:14
“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14
Philippians 1:9-10
“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best.” – Philippians 1:9-10
Hebrews 5:14
“But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.” – Hebrews 5:14
Ephesians 5:15-16
“Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.” – Ephesians 5:15-16
Romans 12:2
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” – Romans 12:2
Staying Grounded in Faith
As we traverse through life, our faith serves as a compass that helps us navigate potential pitfalls. We find strength in unity and encouragement from our community of believers. Together, we can uphold one another, reminding ourselves of the importance of remaining grounded in God’s Word. In challenging moments, it is essential that we lean on our faith and trust in God’s plan rather than giving in to fear or deception. Through prayer and fellowship, we can fortify our convictions and resist outside influences that may lead us astray. When we stand firm in faith as a united body, we become a powerful force for truth against deception, uplifting each other in our individual faith journeys.
Love @KPuff last reply to you brother.
J.
Our sister bringing the wisdom! And I appreciate what you said earlier re: Adam and Eve. Might make a nice thread (hint hint).
I’ll add just a little clarifier. We always choose to believe what we want to believe. Add that to the other thread, and we have a human person, that God created, who always chooses to believe what they want to believe, and then always acts according to what they believe at that moment.
Can we agree that the more God imposes on us, information or principles or “truth detectors”, that are all built in at our creation, the lower the validity of our choices? Like some would say, “some things are just true. We don’t have a choice.” Well that may be true at some level, but we know that some believe that the earth is flat, we never landed on the moon, and girls can be boys, despite all the evidence. They make their own choices based on their own desires.
Both of these characteristics are “very good”. Neither “caused” evil to come into existence.
What do you folks think?
Your brother
Like, when I say - “we always choose to believe what we want to believe”. Let’s expand on that a little.
It means, for a start, if we have been taught, and trained from experience, that it’s good to believe the evidence, then we will choose to believe the evidence. I might not want to believe that I am going to prison, but I did do the deed, and I was apprehended, and I was convicted at trial, and the judge sentenced me to prison. So according to the evidence that I know is true, I believe that I am going to prison. I don’t want to go to prison, but I choose to believe the truth. (BTW, this isn’t actually me lol)
The world is not flat, we did put astronauts on the moon, and the biological binary of male and female is what it is. We choose to believe those things because the evidence is overwhelming.
If we have been taught and trained that we produce our own reality by sticking steadfastly to what we want to be true, then we can actually believe the craziest falsehoods, as if they are actually true. That’s just because we want it to be true so badly.
God leaves our decision to believe Him quite a bit more open. We have to actively choose between viable options. He doesn’t coerce us by overwhelming us with His presence. No 50 ft tall Jesus visiting us at the foot of our bed. He often brings us into context that makes it hard to walk in faith, for good reasons. And He doesn’t normally step in to actively prevent us from pursuing folly.
Does this seem to be true?
Your brother
One question, brother, since you mentioned that there are no wrong or right answers…I take your word for it.
What then is the role of the Ruach in believers life?
You are aware of the Imperatives in Scripture.
Believers have the indwelling Spirit of Christ, the Comforter who proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The Holy Spirit assists believers in prayer (Jude 1:20) and “intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God” (Romans 8:27). He also leads the believer into righteousness (Galatians 5:16–18) and produces His fruit in those yielded to Him (Galatians 5:22–23). Believers are to submit to the will of God and walk in the Spirit.
What does it mean to walk in the Spirit? | GotQuestions.org.
Then there is justification, sanctification and salvation.
Do you think a believer in Christ Jesus can fall into deception in such a way?
A “walk” in the Bible is often a metaphor for practical daily living. The Christian life is a journey, and we are to walk it—we are to make consistent forward progress. The biblical norm for all believers is that they walk in the Spirit: “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25, KJV; cf. Romans 8:14). In other words, the Spirit gave us life in the new birth (John 3:6), and we must continue to live, day by day, in the Spirit.
To walk in the Spirit means that we yield to His control, we follow His lead, and we allow Him to exert His influence over us. To walk in the Spirit is the opposite of resisting Him or grieving Him (Ephesians 4:30).
Galatians 5 examines the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. The context is freedom from the Law of Moses (Galatians 5:1). Those who walk in the Spirit “eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope” (verse 5) and are free from the Law (verse 18). Also, those who walk in the Spirit “will not gratify the desires of the flesh” (verse 16). The flesh—our fallen nature under the power of sin—is in direct conflict with the Spirit (verse 17). When the flesh is in charge, the results are obvious (verses 19–21). But when the Spirit is in control, He produces godly qualities within us, apart from the strictures of the Law (verses 22–23). Believers “have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (verse 24), and now we walk in the Spirit (verse 25).
Those who walk in the Spirit are united with Him and are the bearers of the fruit the Spirit produces. Thus, those who walk in the Spirit walk in love—they live in love for God and for their fellow man. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in joy—they exhibit gladness in what God has done, is doing, and will do. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in peace—their lives are not defined by worry or anxiety (Philippians 4:6). Those who walk in the Spirit walk in patience—they are known for having a “long fuse” and do not lose their temper. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in kindness—they show tender concern for the needs of others. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in goodness—their actions reflect virtue and holiness. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in faithfulness—they are steadfast in their trust of God and His Word. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in gentleness—their lives are characterized by humility, grace, and thankfulness to God. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in self-control—they display moderation, constraint, and the ability to say “no” to the flesh.
Those who walk in the Spirit rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them in thought, word, and deed (Romans 6:11–14). They show forth daily, moment-by-moment holiness, just as Jesus did when, “full of the Holy Spirit, [He] left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness” to be tempted (Luke 4:1).
To walk in the Spirit is to be filled with the Spirit, and some results of the Spirit’s filling are thankfulness, singing, and joy (Ephesians 5:18–20; Colossians 3:16). Those who walk in the Spirit follow the Spirit’s lead. They “let the word of Christ dwell in [them] richly” (Colossians 3:16, ESV), and the Spirit uses the Word of God “for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16). Their whole way of life is lived according to the rule of the gospel, as the Spirit moves them toward obedience. When we walk in the Spirit, we find that the sinful appetites of the flesh have no more dominion over us.
I know this might not what you want to hear or on topic, but would appreciate your input.
J.
Yeah, exactly, 100%, all the time, every time, without exception, believe the Spirit, believe the word always. It’s God Himself talking to us.
This is God’s help and comforter for the BELIEVERS. An always present help in times of need.
In my opinion, the worst offenders in grieving the Holy Spirit, are those Christians who believe that they are saved (and they might be saved) and that’s the end of their purpose on the earth. That the rest of their earthly life is just idle time, and that Jesus’ saving grace covers their past, present, and future sins, and that’s all they are concerned about. Now their concern is the pursuit of other imperatives of their composition. Be great, have fun, win the rat race, enjoy “the good life”. Some good, others not so much.
They tend to believe that the ground is level at the foot of the cross, and that they aren’t losing anything by toying around with sin. Grieving the Spirit. Trampling the blood of Christ in the mud of compromise. These will be called the “least” in heaven. And for some individuals, it’s likely that, like Judas, they aren’t saved at all.
In any case, we are still choosing what we want to believe. The comforter is here to help us, because life is still really hard. I haven’t mentioned the conscience that God has equipped us with yet, which is an invaluable tool in helping us to not sin AGAIN, since our conscience activates after the fact, when we know we just sinned. Our conscience helps us to dread doing something so stupid again, by bringing on the conviction the first time.
Absolutely, I’ll explain what I mean by that. It may be true that someone might post a viewpoint that is factually wrong. The point is that they believe it to be true, or they might believe something that is true, but they are hesitant to share it because they don’t want the rest of us to jump on them.
So what I mean to say is that there are no unwelcome viewpoints, (unless you’re a troll - then I’m coming after you), because the point of the discussion is to get to the truth. And I value the viewpoints of others as scrutiny on my own viewpoints, which could be wrong as well.
It is true that others have already shared viewpoints where I said to myself “Hmmm, I never thought of that. That seems to be accurate.” Or “Okay that’s definitely true, so is what I’m sharing valuable for building up the body of Christ?” And so on.
So I hope that everyone will feel free to share their viewpoints on a very difficult subject.
Your brother
i am not surprised that she could be deceived after all she had not been lied to before . what bothers me is she did not listen to her husband Adam . a major failure we live with even today. sure Adam was deceived as well yet he had first hand knowledge he ignored .
This may be too simplistic, however, we WERE good when God created us. After the fall, flesh becomes corrupt to the point that even Jesus did not want to be called good.
“And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” Luke 18:18-19
However, at the time of creation, we were good.
Peter