The Two Houses of Saints

Theology
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That which, above all else, marks the difference between the Church and Israel, and indeed we may say between the Church and the entire population of the millennial earth, is that the Church is blessed in the Lord Jesus Christ and is with Him: Israel and the millennial nations will be blessed by Him and we will be under His reign.

The Church is Christ Body—His Bride, and participates thus in His exultation to be head over all things both in heaven and on earth. As the body partakes with the head of all the vital energies by which the whole is actuated, so does the Church even now partake with the Lord Jesus of His risen life, and receive from Him the anointing of the Holy Spirit: and as the bride participates in all that is possessed by her husband, so is the Church, the Bride, the lamb’s wife, to participate in His inheritance of all things. Her oneness with Him is the great distinction of the Church.

There are many things in which those who compose the Church differ not from saints of other dispensations, whether past or future. True believers between the day of Pentecost and the descent of the Lord Jesus into the air at the Rapture, constitute the “Church;” and these in common with the Old Testament saints and millennial saints, are chosen of God the Father, redeemed by the Blood of the Savior, quickened and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they are all preserved by almighty grace. In these things the Church differs not from other saints.

That which distinguishes the Church is her oneness with the Lord Jesus Christ. “At that day you shall know (here upon the earth) that I am in the Father and you in Me, and I in you” (Jn 14:20). Of none but the Church could these words be spoken. Of no others could it be said, and the glory which thou gave Me I have given them that they may be one, even as We are One: I in them and You in Me and they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and has loved them as You have loved Me (Jn 17:22, 23).

Israel and the nations in millennial times will constitute “the world,” who, by seeing the Church in the same glory as the Lord Jesus, are to know that she is the object of the same love of the Father as the Lord Jesus Himself is loved. Israel and the nations will be happy, Israel preeminently so, under the reign of the King and His glorified Saints: but no distinction can be made more marked, no contrast more striking, than that which exists between the Bride of the lamb and the nations over which she, with her Lord and Bridegroom, is to reign.

Israel’s distinctive calling is to earthly blessings. Had they been obedient, wealth, power, fame and prosperity, would have been the tokens of God’s approval of their ways. By their disobedience, their idolatry, and especially their rejection of the Savior, they have come under the inflictions of God’s wrath, and that wrath has been manifested against them in all the heavy temporal judgments which have overtaken them. We refer now to God’s dealings with them nationally, in His providential government of the earth. As individuals they are, of course, in common with all men, amendable to eternal judgment and if not saved “by grace through faith,” that judgment will result in eternal ruin.

But it is with God’s dispensational dealings that we are now occupied; the scripture leaves no room for doubt that in this world, the wrath of God against Israel has been, is, and will yet be, manifested by the infliction of temporal calamities.

Prophecy, on the other hand, proves that God’s approbation of Israel, when nationally restored and saved, will be manifested in abundance of temporal prosperity and blessings. Israel’s is an earthly calling: and with Israel, consequently, adversity on earth is a token of God’s displeasure—prosperity a sign of His favor and His smile.

The Church having no present inheritance, except as one with the Lord Jesus in heaven, present earthly trials and sufferings are not her token of divine disapproval. Nay, they are as much her proper portion with Christ on earth, as the glory given by the Father to the Lord Jesus, and given by Him to the Church, is her portion with Him in heaven. Hence the sufferings of the Church are her glory. “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up that which is behind in the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body’s sake, which is the Church” (Col 1:24). “For unto you is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake” (Phl 1:29).

—W. Trotter (1818-1865)

MJS daily devotional excerpt

The life that emerges from death is administered by a loving, nail-pierced hand.

“As with the seed that is buried once for all, but then disintegrated through a gradual process that sets free the new life, even so does our Father deal with our old nature by delivering it to death with the Lord Jesus once for all, and then bringing about its mortifying in detail through the circumstances of daily life, until the power of the old man has lost its hold on us.” -L.T.

“We are going to have to learn death in order to know life. Redemption must be known first, and the ultimate effect will be death to sin, to selfishness; and all this is very trying. One might be tempted to say, “All this trial comes upon me because I have not been redeemed.” Not so; it is just because you are redeemed. We may seek to avoid the bitter waters of Marah, but our Father will bring us to them. He intends to break down what is of the old man, and then, in His own good time, He will pour in that which sweetens all.

“But because God has brought me to Himself, He is putting His finger on everything that hinders complete dependence upon Him, or my soul’s full enjoyment of Himself. So count it not strange, though it be a fiery trial which is to try you; for the Father will have you drink of the very thing (death) that redeemed you.” -J.N.D.

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On the basis of Holy Scripture and the ancient confessions of the Church, I am unable to embrace the modern doctrines of Dispensationalism.

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What a profound truth to start the day. “Her oneness with Him is the great distinction of the Church.” It is so easy to forget the sheer weight of our identity in Christ that we aren’t just rescued bystanders, but His Body, sharing in His risen life right now. Thank you for sharing this reminder of who we are in Him.
Peter

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Is THIS what you mean, @TheologyNerd? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3zPSAt1weE

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Appreciate the encouragement Brother! God bless!!

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I think Scripture is pretty much the same throughout the Bible. It’s just worded differently to assist understanding. We are boundedly to remember T.N., “It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God” (Luk 4:4)."

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@PeterC That looks like a decent explanation for the distinction between dispensation(s) in more standard Christian usage in contrast to Dispensationalism.

My comment was largely addressing the entire system of Dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is a sort of “total” approach to reading the Bible, it’s an entire approach, methodology, and hermeneutic to the Bible as well as a specific set of theological and doctrinal ideas: Of which we can trace, generally, back to John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren.

So, for example, the idea that God has two groups of people, one earthly and one heavenly, Israel and the Church, with different sets of promises, that is an idea that goes back to Darby and is a cornerstone idea of Dispensationalism.

Historic Christian teaching, on the contrary, maintains that Israel and the Church are fundamentally the same thing. The Covenantal promises and unfolding revelation throughout history served the purpose of leading, ultimately, to the coming of Jesus. God chose Abraham, because through Abraham would come the Seed, Jesus Christ. The covenant established at Mt. Sinai was, ultimately, about pointing to the greater and fuller reality of Christ, which is why St. Paul calls the sabbaths, new moons, etc “shadows”. God took the familiar concept of cultic sacrifice, but in such a way that would, ultimately, point to Christ’s perfect sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

The New Testament proposition is that, in Christ, the people of God–Israel–is made bigger and fuller, and Gentiles who hear the Gospel and believe in the Messiah are made members of the “commonwealth” of Israel. Thus the uncircumcised Greek who hears the Gospel and believes, is baptized, is now a son/daughter of Abraham. The Old Covenant established through Moses had the purpose of looking forward to the greater Covenant established through Jesus Christ, which is why the author of Hebrews describes the Old Covenant as having been abolished.

The point of everything in the Bible is Jesus Christ. God did not promise to Abraham a parcel of land, inherited by his descendants through Jacob, led through the wilderness by Moses and then by Joshus for the sake of having a piece of Levantine real estate–but because these things led to, point to, and have greater fulfillment in Jesus.

Israel is the Church.
The Church is Israel.*

Not two peoples.
Not two sets of promises.

One people, and one promise, in Jesus Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female. There is only the one new man in Jesus Christ. For all former divisions have fallen, Christ has become the peace between people. What value has circumcision or uncircumcision? There is no distinction, what matters if faith in Jesus. That is why the Apostle speaks of the circumcision made without hands, when we were brought to the font of Holy Baptism and by the work and power of God, made members of Christ.

By the same token, I do not believe in a literal Millennium. Christ does not come to become a lesser king, He is already King of kings, He is already King of the Universe, the Lord over all creation. When He, as Holy Messiah, was raised up and then ascended, He–in fulfillment of the words of Daniel–was given everlasting kingdom and dominion. When He comes, it is not to establish an earthly kingdom that lasts for only a thousand years, He comes to judge the living and the dead, and to deliver all things into subjugation to His Father wherein God shall be all in all, and so there shall be new heavens and new earth, and God shall dwell with HIs people, and He shall be their God, forever and ever.

The entire system of Dispensationalism is one that I consider incredibly erroneous and deeply at odds with the fundamental teaching of God’s word, the entirety of the Christian confession. And, while I am not seeking to be offensive, I think the worst offense committed by Dispensationalism is that, in at least it’s Classic form (e.g. Classic Dispensationalism) the Cross of Jesus Christ represents not the fulfillment of the entire redemptive drama of Scripture and history, but rather God’s “Plan B” due to Jesus’ failure to accomplish “Plan A”. Under Classic Dispensationalism, Jesus came to establish an earthly kingdom for the Jews where He would be the king of earthly Israel, when the Jewish people failed to fully accept Him as King, God went with a back up plan: Jesus would suffer, die, and then rise and God would instead raise up a people among the Gentiles, for a temporary period (a dispensational parenthetical called the Church Age, or Dispensation of Grace), until God “raptures” the Church out of the world and then goes back to His original plan of dealing with earthly Israel. This also means, whether implicity or explicitly, depending on what Dispensationlist teachers one listens to, that Grace belongs only to this current dispensational parenthesis. While not all Dispensationalists abviously, but many do, maintain that under previous dispensations yes a person was saved by obedience to the Law, and after the rapture, that will be the case again. And there, also, is taught that during the Millennium there will be a re-establishment of the cultic sacrifices of animals, a return to Sabbath observance, there will be an earthly temple in Jerusalem, etc. Which should be seen as monumentally offensive to any Christian who believes in the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ.

*While I did not address it here, I do have a nuanced view on this subject that I have presented in these two statements in an overly-simplistic manner, as I was focusing on the biblical ideas of covenant and covenant fulfillment.

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As outlined here @TheologyNerd

Chapter 7. Of God’s Covenant with Man

  1. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God’s part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.a

  2. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,b wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity,c upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.d

  3. Man, by his fall, having made himself uncapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,e commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved,f and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.g

  4. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in Scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.h

  5. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the gospel:i under the law, it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;k which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,l by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the old testament.m

  6. Under the gospel, when Christ, the substance,n was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s Supper:o which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,p to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;q and is called the new testament.r There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.s

‍a. Isa. 40:13–17.; Job 9:32–33. ; Ps. 113:5–6.; Job 22:2–3. Job 35:7–8.; Luke 17:10.; Acts 17:24–25.
b. Gen. 2:16–17. ; Hos. 6:7.; Gal. 3:12.
c. Gen. 3:22.; Rom. 10:5.; Rom. 5:12–14.; See Rom. 5:15–20.
d. Gen. 2:17.; Gal. 3:10.
e. Gal. 3:21. ; Rom. 3:20–21.; Rom. 8:3.; Gen. 3:15.; See Isa. 42:6.
f. John 3:16.; Rom. 10:6, 9.; Rev. 22:17.
g. Acts 13:48.; Ezek. 36:26–27.; John 6:37, 44–45.; 1 Cor. 12:3.
h. Heb. 9:15–17.
i. 2 Cor. 3:6–9.
k. Heb. 8–10.; Rom. 4:11.; Col. 2:11–12.; 1 Cor. 5:7.
l. 1 Cor. 10:1–4.; Heb. 11:13.; John 8:56.
m. Gal. 3:7–9, 14.; Ps. 32:1–2, 5.
n. Col. 2:17.
o. 1 Cor. 1:21.; Matt. 28:19–20.; 1 Cor. 11:23–25.
p. Heb. 12:22–24.; 2 Cor. 3:9–11.; Jer. 31:33–34.
q. Luke 2:32.; Acts 10:34.; Eph. 2:15–19.
r. Luke 22:20.
s. Gal. 3:8–9, 14, 16.; Rom. 3:21–22, 30.; Rom. 4:3, 6–8.; See Gen. 15:6. Ps. 32:1–2.; Rom. 4:16–17, 23–24.; Heb. 4:2.; See Rom. 10:6–10; 1 Cor. 10:3–4.

J.

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I do not think I stated which side of the subject I stand on, so I want to be clear. 1 I do believe that Jesus came for the Jews. His own statements prove this. Calling the Woman a dog, and Gentiles dogs and pigs. When the Jews rejected Him, salvation was open to all.

Now, was this plan B, or planned from the beginning? 2-Looking at the big picture, I do not think God can be “Surprised,” nor do I feel Jesus can “fail.” Therefore, the only logical answer would be that it was planned. Jesus didn’t pivot to a Plan B. The Jewish leaders’ rejection of Jesus was the exact mechanism prophesied in Isaiah 53 to get Jesus to the cross. The cross didn’t interrupt Israel’s promises; it fulfilled them by broadening the definition of Israel to include everyone who believes.
Peter

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Yes, one from the two, Christian Jews and Gentiles. I wouldn’t think God would abandon and judge the Jews who love Him after 4 millennia. He knew most of the Jews would not except Him, but there are the Jews who still love God, and is why they will always be His people. Israel on the New Earth and Christians in the New Haven–ruling the New Earth.

A “dispensation” in merely a certain way God is dealing with people. Paul mention the dispensations of Grace, and the other dispensation is of Law. Eternity does not classify as a dispensation because it is not temporary.

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I respect the sentiment, I too have a great deal of affection toward our Jewish cousins. Where I struggle with this sentiment is why is the love of God expressed by Jewish people be quantifiably different than the love of God of any other non-believing people? That is to say: our Muslim friends and neighbors also love God, they love the same God of Abraham.

I’ll even add this caveat: While I believe, emphatically, that salvation is found no where else except in and through Jesus Christ; I am unwilling to stand in judgment and say that every person who is not a Christian will be damned. For example: what shall we say of the unreached? This, however, becomes a subject of ordered power and extraordinary power; of ordinary means and extraordinary means. That is to say, we have God’s revealed word, and by this know the ordered means by which God says He shall accomplish His work, this is why He has instituted His Church to go out and make disciples, to preach the Gospel, to baptize, etc. God desires that salvation be preached to the furthest reaches of humanity, in order that all should hear, and indeed believe, for in Christ there is salvation. But does that mean that God can, in ways He has not told us, choose to save a person? A child born in a remote village, orphaned at a young age, and perhaps raised by a pack of wolves, should this person if they perish before the chance to hear the Gospel be condemned, seemingly, for not having won a cosmic lottery ticket of being born at the right time and right place? Or should we instead choose to trust in God, that in the end God’s will is good, and we can therefore trust that heaven and hell are not inhabited based on cosmic chance; but rather based on God’s mercy and love (heaven) and human choice (hell)? I would regard this latter position to be favorable. It is not my place to say who will go to hell, but I do know that I, in my sin, deserve both death and hell; and I know that in Christ alone I have hope of everlasting life.

I bring all of this up to say this: I am not going to stand here and claim every non-believing Jewish person is condemned to hell. But neither am I going to claim that there is a salvation, apart from the perfect and finished work of Jesus Christ. There is no other name. Period. The Scriptures teach us, further, that the problem of sin is such that there is no one that loves God, apart from the work and power of God to regenerate man, we all come into this world at enmity with God, whether Jew or Gentile. This universal problem of sin is a foundational principle of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans: the universality of sin means nobody is justified before God on the basis of who they are, where they were born, or on what they do. Nobody can be justified by their works, instead all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This is also why the salvation wrought by Christ is, likewise, a universal one: So that all who believe are freely justified. We don’t get to just dismiss these absolutely critical teachings of Scripture.

So what does that mean? Well, in a sense, it means nobody loves God. The words “I love God” mean nothing on themselves–but is meaningful only in good works, and since in Adam we sinful and dead in our trespasses, our works are unrighteous. Even our most noble works are sinful before the burning truth of God’s Law.

Being Jewish, then, means nothing as it pertains to justification before God. For this reason circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, as the Apostle St. Paul clearly says.

Let us also recall the words of St. John, “If anyone says they love God but hates their brother, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.” This, again, demonstrates that love of God cannot be divorced from good works, if I claim I love God but then see my neighbor hungry and drive by without car, I show that I do not love God, but indeed I despise God. For this is the wickedness of my flesh at work: That I despise God and despise the things of God, and I am in desperate need of mercy to forgive me and renew me, that I should be transformed day-by-day.

Being Jewish means nothing.
Being Gentile means nothing.
What matters is Jesus Christ, and what He has done once and for all.

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Hard disagree.

The new heavens and new earth is not about two destinations. It’s about the full renewal and healing of creation. The heavens, aka, the skies. This is not about the sublime and incomprehensible abode of God, the unapproachable light of God that we euphemistically call “heaven” by analogy to the heights of the skies (c.f. “The heavens cannot contain You, not even the heavens of heavens, how much less this house which I have built?” “the heavens are Your throne and the earth is Your footstool”)

This is about the “skies and land” going back to Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, which is to say, everything which exists. We’d call that the physical universe. Ha-eretz, the land, or earth, is the “down here stuff” while ha-shamayim, the skies or the heavens, is the “up there stuff”. Which is also why the sun, moon, and stars are in “the heavens” it’s why birds and flying things were created to dominate “the heavens”.

So when the Prophet Isaiah declares that God will make new heavens and new earth, this is about God’s covenant faithfulness to His creation. It’s why Isaiah then talks about predator and prey animals co-habitating in peace. Men of a 100 years old will be as though they are young men.

St. John in his Apocalypse, the Revelation, also looks and beholds new heavens and new earth; the tyranny of death and sin is no more, the old is gone, and “see! I make all things new!”.

It is here that St. John beholds the union of Heaven and Earth, I’m using Heaven here to specifically talk about God’s abode rather than “the skies”, in the form of a heavenly Jerusalem descending out of the heavens–this city, which obviously isn’t a literal city, contains clear symbolic language: there are 12 gates, 12 foundations, 12 precious gemstones; there is clearly Twelve Tribes/Twelve Apostles symbolism going here, which is explicitly stated in the text (Revelation 21:12-14).

The touch-down of the heavenly city establishes a new order for creation where it is as though God directly dwells on the earth with His people,

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, 'Behold the dwelling place of God is with human beings, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God will wipe away all the tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And He that sat upon the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, ‘Write, for these words are true and faithful.’ And He said unto me, 'It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end! I will give unto the one that is thirsty from the fountain of the water of life freely. … And I saw no temple therein, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day; for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.” (Rev 21:3-6, 22-26)

This isn’t about one eternal destination for one people, and another for a different people.

This is about the final and ultimate state of all things. For the dead will be raised, unto bodies incorruptible and imperishable, even as Christ our God and Lord was raised up from the dead. And we shall dwell with God forever. Where? In a place called heaven? No! We shall forever dwell in God’s renewed creation. The absolute beauty of this here is that there is, no longer, a distinction between God’s dwelling place, “Heaven” if we should like to call it that, and the dwelling place of man. This calls us back to Genesis where we read God would walk in the midst of the Garden with Adam and Eve.

This is Eden language, but dialed up to 11. This is not some mere restoration of pre-fall Eden. This is what all things look like after God accomplishes His glorious purposes with which He purposed all of creation.

The fall was not something that caused God to have to re-think His entire creation project. What God intended to do, He was still going to do.

But bringing about God’s good and glorious purposes for His creation, on account of the fall, means addressing and undoing the fall. And that’s what the entirety of the divine drama of redemption in the Bible is all about. And it’s right there in the promise which God made after expelling Adam and Eve from the garden, that the Seed of the woman would crush the serpent. And it’s right there being anticipated as we read the lineages of the patriarchs, finally settling down when we read about an old man pastoralist with his barren wife, Abraham and Sarah. Even when we, before this, read of the great flood of Noah’s time, we are indeed seeing the finger prints of redemption (notice, how in the flood story, the problem of sin isn’t resolved? As though God would tell us that merely destroying the world and starting over isn’t going to fix things, what is needed, is redemption, and that story of redemption begins with Abraham. The story of the flood also gives us the prototype language of rescue in the form of the Ark).

What we behold at the conclusion of the Apocalypse, of the new heavens and the new earth, is that God has done right by His creation, He has not abandoned it to death and futility (see Romans 8:18-23), but to redemption in Christ Jesus.

The Age to Come doesn’t have segregation. For all alike shall dwell in the beatifying light of God in Christ forever and ever.

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I do not think the rejection by the Jewish establishment was causal in opening up salvation to all. The rejection by the Jewish establishment is, I think, what was prophesied long ago, and it represents one of the ways God’s ways runs contrary to the ways of the world. God’s ways run contrary to the world’s ways of power, something we see time and again throughout Scripture.

So that Jesus became the enemy of the religious establishment in the same way that Jesus was viewed as a threat to the political establishment, even though Jesus did not come seeking to elevate Himself to a place of earthly glory (and, indeed, rebukes the devil when the devil tries to tempt Him with earthly power) He was nevertheless a threat to the powers-that-be both religious and secular. So the rejection and animosity by the religious powers just shows us just how antithetical Jesus and His proclamation of the kingdom was to the established powers of the time (and still continues to be right up into our own time).

Jesus never came to establish an earthly kingdom, the kingdom He preached was God’s kingdom: The proclamation that God, indeed, is King, and what it means for God to be King (the last shall be first, the slave shall be called greatest of all, that kingdom comes not with chariots and a diadem of gems, but comes riding on a donkey, is crucified, and wears a crown of thorns).

Indeed, our Lord says He came for the lost sheep of Israel, His earthly ministry was focused on His own kinsmen. Yet, He does not deny the Canaanite woman, He does not reject the centurion, He does not ignore the Samaritan woman. Salvation was always for the whole world. The earthly ministry of our Lord does not exclude the salvation of non-Jews; it was in order that He should, indeed, be betrayed, crucified, and on the third day rose again–in accordance with the Scriptures.

It was always meant to be that Jesus would be crucified and rise again, He said so.
It was always meant to be that salvation would be for the whole world, the Scriptures declare this from beginning to end.

The only thing that the rejection by the Jewish religious establishment did was demonstrate just how unlike Jesus was from the powers of wickedness at work in the world. Demonstrating that sin is in every man, that the way of the world is always wickedness, violence, and rejection. And that God’s way of doing things is always going to be unlike the world’s ways of doing things.

Whether it’s the imperial power of Rome represented by Pilate, or the religious power structures represented by the Sanhedrin and the corrupt priestly establishment among the Sadducees, or even just you or me, sinners who, in our flesh, crave power and glory and abhor the weakness of the cross. God’s ways always conflicting with ours and the world’s.

Even still, our Lord declares even in the midst of His passion, “Forgive them”, for even in the heart of suffering mercy triumphs over evil, that’s how God wins. Not with armed forces, but through the suffering of the cross and the empty tomb.

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I like everything you said, and the way you put it, but the eschatology of Israel that I share are from articles of the Plymouth Brethren (16th-1800’s). I admit that their teachings are unique to the average Bible believer, but they have a lot that I like and believe.

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As the Plymouth Brethren were, in part, started by John Darby that makes sense.

I consider Darby to have been a false teacher whose ideas, having infiltrated their way in varying degrees, to other parts of the Protestant world is troubling and worrisome.

I consider Dispensationalism a fringe set of ideas, and dangerous.

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There was a dispensing;

Col_1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

There will be a dispensing;

Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The new covenant that Jesus offered to Israel was for Israle;

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

There will be a time of Jacob’s trouble;

Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

At the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to rule the earth for a thousand years a faithful remnant of Israel will finally be the nation of priests that they were intended to be.

To take the prophecies for Israel and try to make them be about us is an unfair twisting of God’s word.

Plan “F”?

God created heaven and earth perfect. This was plan “A” When Satan’s pride led him to rebel against God and take a third of the angles with him, God had plan “B”. When Adam and Eve sinned, plan “C” went into effect. However, just a few generations after Adam and Eve people became so wicked (amplified by angelic interference) that the world was destroyed with a flood and only eight people were saved. This brought us to plan “D”. However, with the Tower of Babble, it was apparent that a more direct means of getting people to know about their creation, God, and the need for faith a plan “E” was needed. The nation of Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests who would bring the knowledge of God to the whole world.

God put an awful lot of work into plan “E”. The Old Testament of the bible is almost all about What Israel was supposed to do, promises to Israel about the future, and a continual record of their disregard for God. Sending Jesus as the promised Messiah was the culmination of the plan of God to offer a way back to eternal life that was lost by Adam and Eve. Since Israel did not accept the kingdom offered by Jesus at his ministry to the nation, dramatic circumstances will be brought on earth such that a faithful remnant of Israel will be persuaded to received the kingdom. However, this cataclysmic event will not happen until after plan “F” has run its course.

The nation of Israel was supposed to receive the gospel of the kingdom and her king, Jesus, and subsequently bring the knowledge of God to the world. This knowledge instead was spread by those through the gospel of the grace of God introduced by Paul who was called to be an apostle to the gentiles. This might be called plan “F”. When the full number of the gentiles come in, plan “G” would be established where Jesus returns to earth and rules as king from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

These various plans are not the result of God not having control (being all knowing he knew that we would fall short), but of his allowing humans and angles to have free will. The angels were created all at once and with knowledge. They made their choice all at once. Humans are born sequentially and in ignorance. As a result, God endures the evils that result from bad choices until he can harvest a “crop” of those that surrender to his will.

Some call these “plans” covenants or dispensations. However, these names can be misleading. The world “plan” can also be misleading. It does convey that God is in charge, however, it fails to convey that they might better be called opportunities. Each of these “plans” demonstrate that no matter what the circumstances, most people will ultimately reject God and seek to go their own way. God structured our redemption to be based on faith (trust). Trust is given to that which is true. Israel would keep their laws when they trusted God as a demonstration of faith. Today with plan “F” those who trust in Jesus and his payment on the cross for our sins are regenerated unto the eternal life that is in Christ, can have the Holy Spirit make them better people, and have access to the wisdom of God..

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

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I believe the Brethren has the most advanced spritual-growth teachings within Christianity.

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I would ask why you believe that is so, but I feel that would radically change the course of the conversation here, and would be better served in a totally separate discussion thread.

As it stands, I would only reiterate the things I’ve stated already. Dispensationalism is a spiritually dangerous theological system and is a fundamentally erroneous hermeneutic. Any system which denies the pre-eminence of Jesus Christ, His atoning work, the universal necessity of grace, teaches deep falsehoods is not a system which any Christian ought to entertain.

I would not necessarily go so far as to call Dispensationalism heresy, though it comes very close.

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It’s just that Israel has been and will ever be God’s “people.”

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I don’t deny that.
But according to the New Testament, all who belong to Christ are Israel, through faith. Whether Jew or Gentile.

Faithful Israel = the Church.

Which is why the Apostle St. Paul says in Ephesians that the Gentiles who have heard the Gospel and believed are now citizens of the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11-22) and offers the comparison to the time of the Prophet Elijah, concerning a faithful remnant of Israel even when many had been seduced to false worship during the reign of Ahab. It’s not that God has kicked unfaithful Israel, non-believing Jews, to the curb; in the same way God has not ignored the plight of the nations who have never known Him. He is the God who desires the salvation of all. It is in this hope, of course, that the Apostle St. Paul can say that he hopes and longs for a time when “all Israel” shall be saved–because of course He hopes and prays that eventually all His kinsmen will come to hear and believe the Gospel. Even as the Apostle hoped and longed that all men would hear and believe. We should all have such hope and longing, for that is God’s will, that none should perish. For, as the Apostle says to his spiritual son Timothy, God is the Savior of all people, especially of those that believe.

But God doesn’t have two peoples. He has His people, who believe. Those who came before Christ had faith, and it was reckoned to them as righteousness as our holy father Abraham before us.

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