What is the "Sin Nature?"

Theology
41

"The beauty of Ecclesiastes 12:7 is that it perfectly reverses Genesis 2:7. Scripture doesn’t need to introduce an invisible anatomical cord to explain death. God’s Word shows that death is simply the separation of the two things he put together in Eden: the physical ‘dust’ goes back to the earth, and the breath/spirit (ruach) goes straight back to the God who breathed it. That is the moment the ‘earthly tent’ is folded up so we can inherit the spiritual body Paul promised.

If the silver chain (cord) snaps, the golden bowl holding the oil drops and shatters, permanently extinguishing the light. It is a vivid metaphor for how suddenly and fragilely life can end. When Jesus warns to fear the one who can destroy both soul and body, he establishes that the soul is distinct from physical flesh and survives physical death.

Paul refers to our current physical bodies as an “earthly tent”—temporary, fragile, and distinct from the eternal “building from God” we inherit. While you mentioned 2 Corinthians, Paul explicitly uses the phrase “spiritual body” in 1 Corinthians 15:44: “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.” As we already discussed, Christian theology generally teaches that a “spiritual body” isn’t a formless ghost, but a transformed, perfected physical reality, much like the resurrected body of Jesus, which could be touched and eat food, yet was no longer bound by mortal limitations or decay.

How else would you explain how we will exist on a new physical earth without a physical body?
Peter

1 Like
42

Davy, your interpretation is not supported by the grammar of Paul’s argument. The problem is that you have changed the referent of Paul’s pronouns. In 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, Paul repeatedly writes, “it is sown… it is raised” (σπείρεται… ἐγείρεται). Both verbs are third person singular passive indicatives, and they refer back to the same singular subject throughout the passage. The question Paul is answering in verse 35 is, “With what kind of body (σῶμα) do they come?” Therefore, the grammatical antecedent of every “it” is the body. Paul never changes the subject to the spirit or the soul. To claim that “it” suddenly refers to the spirit is not something the Greek text says; it is something imported into the text.

Paul reinforces this by using the noun σῶμα (“body”) in both halves of the contrast: “It is sown a natural body (σῶμα ψυχικόν); it is raised a spiritual body (σῶμα πνευματικόν).” Notice that the noun never changes. Only the adjective changes. If Paul intended to contrast a physical body with an immaterial spirit, he could have written “a body is sown, a spirit is raised” (πνεῦμα). He does not. Instead, he deliberately repeats σῶμα twice, indicating continuity of the same entity while describing a change in its condition or mode of existence. Grammatically, the adjectives ψυχικόν (“natural”) and πνευματικόν (“spiritual”) modify the noun “body”; they do not replace it.

The adjective πνευματικός (“spiritual”) does not mean “made out of spirit.” In Paul’s writings, adjectives ending in -ικός often describe what characterizes or governs something rather than the material from which it is composed. For example, “spiritual gifts” (πνευματικά), “spiritual food” (βρῶμα πνευματικόν), and “spiritual drink” (πόμα πνευματικόν) in 1 Corinthians 10 are not immaterial gifts, food, or drink. They are real gifts, real food, and real drink characterized by the work of the Spirit. Likewise, a “spiritual body” is a body characterized, empowered, and perfected by the Holy Spirit, not a body that has ceased to be a body.

Verse 45 confirms this reading. Paul quotes Genesis 2:7: “The first man Adam became a living soul (ψυχὴν ζῶσαν); the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit (πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν).” Here Paul is not contrasting the substances of Adam and Christ but their roles. Adam received life; Christ gives life. The adjective “life-giving” (ζῳοποιοῦν) modifies “Spirit” and emphasizes Christ as the source of resurrection life. Nothing in the grammar says believers cease to have bodies or become pure spirits.

Your appeal to 2 Corinthians 5 likewise overlooks Paul’s syntax. Paul says he longs “not to be unclothed, but to be clothed upon” (οὐ θέλομεν ἐκδύσασθαι ἀλλ’ ἐπενδύσασθαι). The infinitives describe two opposite conditions. To be “unclothed” is to exist apart from the body, while to be “clothed upon” is to receive the resurrection body. If Paul believed the believer’s final hope was simply to exist as a disembodied spirit, he would not reject the “unclothed” state. Instead, he longs for mortality to “be swallowed up by life,” language that deliberately parallels 1 Corinthians 15:54, where the resurrection body is received.

Even 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not support your conclusion. Paul writes, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” The second clause explains the first. “Flesh and blood” is a Hebrew idiom referring to mortal, corruptible humanity, not to the physical substance of the human body. This is confirmed by the next verses, where Paul twice uses the demonstrative pronoun τοῦτο (“this”): “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (vv. 53-54). The repeated τοῦτο points to the present body as the one being transformed. Paul does not say another body replaces this one; he says this corruptible body must put on incorruption.

Grammatically, therefore, Paul’s argument is remarkably consistent. The same body that is sown is the body that is raised. The same grammatical subject runs through the entire passage. The noun remains σῶμα from beginning to end, while the adjectives describe its transformation. Paul’s doctrine is one of continuity through glorification, not replacement through abandonment. The resurrection is not the exchange of a body for a spirit; it is the transformation of the body into an incorruptible, glorious, Spirit-empowered body, patterned after the glorified body of the risen Christ.

The Unchanging Subject (Sōma)
In the Greek text, the verbs used are σπείρεται (speiretai - “it is sown”) and ἐγείρεται (egeiretai - “it is raised”). Both are third-person singular passive indicatives.

Crucially, they both refer back to the exact same grammatical subject established earlier in the passage: σῶμα (sōma - “body”). Paul deliberately repeats the noun sōma twice:

Sow: σῶμα ψυχικόν (a natural body)

Raise: σῶμα πνευματικόν (a spiritual body)

Because the noun never changes, the grammar dictates continuity. It is not a matter of a physical body being discarded and replaced by an immaterial ghost; rather, the same body is being transformed from one state into another.

The demonstrative pronoun “this” emphasizes that the very same mortal, corruptible body we possess now is the one that will be transformed, glorified, and clothed with immortality.

. Jesus did not abandon His body and receive an unrelated spiritual body; rather, the tomb was emptied, the crucified body was raised, transformed, and glorified. Paul’s argument in 1 Corinthians 15 rests upon that historical reality. Consequently, any interpretation that severs the resurrection body from the body that dies fails to do justice either to Paul’s grammar or to his Christology.

You are conflating the “body” TO spirit.

J.

44

If your position is that the soma pneumatikos is a non-physical body made up of some kind of “ghost stuff” then you are denying the core doctrine of the Christian faith.

Jesus rose from the dead.

If your Jesus has a body that decayed in the tomb, and is a ghost up in heaven, then you have a false Jesus.

1 Like
45

The KJV English is more accurate than you think. And Paul was… pointing to the difference between a flesh body and a spiritual body. So you don’t need the Greek to understand that point.

But what you do… need to see in the Greek is the 4 different Greek words Paul uses in 1 Cor.15:53-54 to describe the differences between the two ‘types’… of bodies.

1 Cor 15:44

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
KJV

1 Cor 15:48-54
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
KJV

Have you even bothered to look up where Paul was quoting that last phrase from, “Death is swallowed up in victory”?

Then when we get to 2 Corinthians 5, Paul makes it clear that we already have that ‘other’ body made up of spirit…

2 Cor 5:1-8
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

That is not about a ‘will have’ future body; that is about a spirit body we have at present which God also made for us that dwells in our flesh with our soul. Even though Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 does not spell out that is what it is pointing to with the word for “spirit” that goes back to God, that is what it is about, even as Peter revealed this too in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 when Jesus during His resurrection went and preached to the “spirits in prison” of those who died back to the flood.

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

How does one live according to God in the spirit once their flesh body is dead? If you try to say they are still in a flesh body in the heavenly then that is definitely error away from The Word of God as written.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

46

I see that ploy all the time by those who don’t read all their Bible, and especially in this case 1 Cor.15 and 1 Peter 3…

1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
KJV

At some point after Lord Jesus’ flesh body rose, He was changed (quickened) back to His Spirit body. Flesh and blood, like Paul said, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Our flesh body won’t be changed like Lord’s Jesus’ flesh was, which His spirit body still contains the marks of His crucifixion as a remembrance. Open up a buried casket of anyone else and their dead bones are still there decayed or decaying.

Where the idea that our resurrection will involve another flesh body is from old Jewish traditions. The New Testament Scriptures give us more detail though about the three parts that God created us with, and that it is our ‘spirit’ body that is raised at the resurrection, not our flesh body.

47

So you don’t believe God’s Word when it speaks of angels manifesting on earth with the image of men? How does that happen, since angels don’t have flesh bodies? Even Lord Jesus in John 8 revealed that He had appeared to and spoken to Abraham (See Genesis 18).

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

If our flesh body is killed, but it does not kill our soul, then what happens to our soul? Where does it go? And I must warn you, the false idea that our soul is like a drop of water out of the Great Ocean (a metaphor put for God), and at death of our flesh it loses consciousness as it is absorbed back into the Great All, is actually a primitive eastern pagan doctrine not written in God’s Word.

The “spirits in prison” of 1 Peter 3 and 4 is not a metaphor either. At Lord Jesus resurrection, in His ‘quickened’ spirit body is how He went and preached The Gospel to the dead “spirits in prison” (i.e., Satan’s prison house), and would lead out those who believed, which was a prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that He would do that. Some of men’s doctrines instead treat those “spirits in prison” as demons, and that Jesus was only declaring His Victory over them. No, because 1 Peter 4:5-6 reveals that The Gospel was preached also to the ‘dead’ so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

And don’t forget, that per Hebrews 11:3, when God spoke and the world came into existence, the material universe He created was created from Spirit, because that was the only relam that existed before He made His material creation, for God is a Spirit per John 4.

And He (the full Godhead) has promised He will return back to this earth, as His Garden of Eden was once upon this earth He created per Genesis 2.

So you ask how is it possible to exist on the new earth without a flesh physical body, then don’t you believe the Genesis 2 Scripture when God’s Eden (Paradise per the Septuagint) was once upon this very earth, and His River in Eden flowed on earth to feed four other rivers upon this earth? And God walked in His Garden then, on earth? Don’t you believe that as written?

48

Luke 24:36–43 (ESV)

36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!”

37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.

38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”

42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

43 and he took it and ate before them.

This is probably the strongest passage. Jesus explicitly distinguishes Himself from a mere spirit.

John 20:24–29 (ESV)

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

The nail wounds remain identifiable, demonstrating continuity between the crucified and resurrected body.

John 2:19–22 (ESV)

19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”

21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

The very body that was destroyed is the body that was raised.

Acts 2:29–32 (ESV)

29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,

31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses."

Peter argues that Christ’s flesh did not undergo decay.

Acts 13:34–37 (ESV)

34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way: “I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.”

35 Therefore he says also in another psalm, “You will not let your Holy One see corruption.”

36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption,

37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.

Again, the emphasis is on the body not decaying.

Romans 8:11 (ESV)

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul bases our future bodily resurrection on Christ’s bodily resurrection.

J.

1 Like
49

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Job 19:25-27

For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last He will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Romans 8:11

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:18-23

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done well to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

Perhaps you should start reading the Bible more before firing off your empty accusations against those who actually know the Scriptures.

50

No, the 1 Cor.15:44-45 and 1 Peter 3:18-19 Scripture is that Christ’s flesh body was ‘quickened’ to a spirit body, for like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

The two body types are separate operations and of two separate realms of existence according to Paul in 1 Cor.15 and in 2 Cor.5.

51

You are mistaken.

Psalm 16:10, as interpreted by the apostles in Acts 2 and Acts 13, teaches that Jesus’ body did not undergo decay or decomposition in the tomb. Peter’s argument rests precisely on this point. Unlike David, whose body remained in the grave and decomposed, Christ was raised before His body experienced corruption.

In the Hebrew text of Psalm 16:10 we read, “For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will you let your Holy One see corruption” (ESV). The phrase translated “see corruption” is לִרְאוֹת שָׁחַת (lirʾôt šāḥaṯ). The verb רָאָה (rāʾâ) ordinarily means “to see,” but it frequently carries the broader sense of “to experience” or “to undergo.” The noun שַׁחַת (šaḥaṯ) can denote a “pit” or “grave,” but in this context it also carries the sense of “corruption” or “decay” associated with the grave. Peter’s inspired interpretation in Acts removes any ambiguity by applying the phrase specifically to the physical body of Christ.

The Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament that the apostles often quoted, renders the Hebrew with οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν (“nor will you allow your Holy One to see corruption”). The key noun is διαφθορά (diaphthora), which standard Greek lexicons such as BDAG and LSJ define as “corruption,” “decay,” or “decomposition.” Likewise, the infinitive ἰδεῖν (“to see”) carries the idiomatic sense of “to experience” or “to undergo,” just as Scripture speaks of someone “seeing death” or “seeing life.” Thus, “to see corruption” means “to undergo bodily decay.”

Peter makes this explicit in Acts 2:31 when he explains David’s prophecy: “He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.” Significantly, Peter adds the words ἡ σὰρξ αὐτοῦ (“His flesh”), making clear that he is speaking about Christ’s physical body. The issue is not merely that Jesus escaped the realm of the dead, but that His flesh did not experience decomposition.

Paul repeats the same argument in Acts 13:35–37. He contrasts David with Christ by saying that David “fell asleep… and saw corruption” (εἶδεν διαφθοράν), whereas “He whom God raised up did not see corruption.” Paul’s entire argument depends on the historical contrast. David’s body remained in the tomb and decayed. Christ’s body did not. Therefore, Psalm 16 could not ultimately have referred to David, but only to the Messiah.

This does not mean that Jesus did not truly die. Scripture is unequivocal that He died. His spirit departed, and His body lay lifeless in Joseph’s tomb. However, because He was raised on the third day, His body never entered the normal process of bodily decomposition. This accords with Jewish expectations reflected in John 11:39, where Martha says of Lazarus, who had been dead four days, “by this time there will be an odor.” Jesus, by contrast, was raised before corruption began.

Theologically, this is highly significant. The apostles are not teaching that Christ discarded His crucified body and received an entirely different one. Rather, they proclaim that the very body that was crucified, buried, and preserved from decay was raised and glorified. Peter’s emphasis that “His flesh did not see corruption” establishes continuity between the body laid in the tomb and the glorified body that emerged from it. This is one of the strongest biblical arguments against the notion that Jesus’ earthly body decayed while only a non-physical or entirely different body was raised. Instead, the New Testament consistently affirms that the crucified body was preserved from corruption, raised by the Father, and transformed in glory.

J.

1 Like
52

I don’t know that I can adequately define the sin nature. We know that the apostle Paul struggled with it in Romans 7, but he concluded that passage with
" Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives you life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

And then there is one of my favorite verses.

“For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Hebrews 10:14

the ‘perfect’ is past tense. The ‘being made’ is ongoing. Let this encourage you.

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@DavyP

Again, you are mistaken…

John 2:19–21

Jesus said,

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

John then explains:

“But He was speaking about the temple of His body (τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ).”

Notice that Jesus does not say, “I will receive another (ἄλλο or ἕτερον) body.” The demonstrative “this temple” points to the very body standing before His hearers. The body destroyed is the body raised.

Luke 24:39

After the resurrection Jesus declared,

“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Again, there is no suggestion of ἕτερον σῶμα (“a different body”) or even ἄλλο σῶμα (“another body”). Instead, Jesus stresses personal and bodily continuity. The hands and feet still bear the marks of crucifixion, demonstrating identity between the crucified and resurrected body.

John 20:27

Jesus tells Thomas,

“Put your finger here, and see My hands; put out your hand, and place it in My side.”

The wounds remain. Had Jesus possessed an entirely different body, this invitation would lose much of its evidential force. The scars testify that it is the same body, now glorified.

Acts 2:31

Peter says,

“His flesh did not see corruption.”

The noun σάρξ (“flesh”) refers to the body that lay in the tomb. Peter does not say God discarded that flesh and replaced it with ἕτερον σῶμα (“a different body”). Rather, that flesh was preserved from decay and raised.

Acts 13:37

Paul likewise says,

“He whom God raised did not see corruption.”

Again, there is no language of replacement. The body that escaped corruption is the body that God raised.

1 Corinthians 15

This chapter is especially important because Paul does use both ἄλλος and ἕτερος elsewhere in his writings, yet he deliberately avoids them when describing the resurrection body.

In verses 35–44 he repeatedly speaks of the body (σῶμα) being sown and the body being raised:

“It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body.”

The same grammatical subject continues throughout the contrasts:

sown in corruption, raised in incorruption,
sown in dishonor, raised in glory,
sown in weakness, raised in power,
sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body.

Paul never says:

“A different (ἕτερον) body is sown.”

Nor does he say:

“Another (ἄλλο) body replaces the first.”

Instead, the same body undergoes transformation.

The lexical distinction

Although the distinction is not always absolute, Greek generally uses:

ἄλλος (allos) - another of the same kind.
ἕτερος (heteros) - another of a different kind.

For example:

Galatians 1:6–7

“You are turning to a different (ἕτερον) gospel, which is really not another (ἄλλο).”

Paul intentionally contrasts the words. The so-called “different gospel” is not merely another legitimate gospel of the same kind, because there is only one true gospel.

If the New Testament authors had wanted to teach that Jesus left His earthly body behind and received an entirely different kind of body, ἕτερος would have been a natural word to use. If they wished to stress another body of the same kind, ἄλλος was readily available. Yet in the resurrection narratives and in 1 Corinthians 15, neither term is used. Instead, the consistent emphasis is on the same body being raised and transformed.

This is reinforced by the agricultural analogy in 1 Corinthians 15:36–38. The seed that is sown is not identical in appearance to the mature plant, yet there is genuine continuity between the two. Paul is illustrating transformation, not replacement. Likewise, the body that is buried is the body that is raised, but it is raised glorified, imperishable, powerful, and “spiritual” (πνευματικόν), that is, fully animated and perfected by the Holy Spirit.

There are plenty of excellent biblical study tools available online to help you rightly divide, or more literally, “cut straight,” the Scriptures.

J.

54

No, the Bible Scriptures do not lie. But the old Hollywood horror movie ‘ghost’ idea applied to a body of ‘spirit’ is used instead of heeding the actual Bible Scripture, Scriptures like I posted which no one has been able to counter. Here, let’s break down what Apostle Paul said about that other body in 2 Corinthians 5…

2 Cor 5:1-9
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

That “earthly house” Paul points to is about our flesh body. It is made up of the material of this earthly creation by God, i.e., matter.

But that “building of God, an house not made with hands,” Paul refers to the “spiritual body”, a body that is NOT made up of material matter, NOT a flesh body. And to make sure we understand Paul, he even said that body not made with hands is “eternal in the heavens.” Can’t get any more plain than that.

And the subject context of that verse? Paul described that if our earthly flesh body were suddenly dissolved (i.e., destroyed), we still have ANOTHER BODY from God, non-material, eternal in the heavens. That is what our ‘spirit’ part is which Hebrews 4:12 points to. It is the “image of the heavenly” that Paul mentioned in 1 Cor.15, and is a different type body than our flesh.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
KJV

For in what… do we groan, desiring instead that our spiritual body from heaven be manifested. In our flesh body, our ‘spirit’ groans seeking to be RELEASED from the flesh. Right there Paul is describing TWO SEPARATE OPERATIONS, the earthly vs. the heavenly. So how in the world can anyone try to HIDE this, Paul was very clear about it?

Per 2 Cor.12, Paul described one who was ‘out of body’. I believe Paul was being modest and was speaking of himself, for he was once stoned by the Jews and was reckoned dead, but the disciples stood over him, and he rose up, didn’t die. Paul said he didn’t know whether he was in the body (i.e., flesh body), or out of the body, that God knew. That right there is Paul admitting the TWO SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT BODY TYPES.

55

Brother @TheologyNerd I concur with you re the “sinful nature” vs “sin nature.”

St. Paul writes, “For freedom Christ has set us free (5:1).” Because of the forgiveness of sins, received from Christ Jesus, the Christian is declared righteous before God. One does not need to look to works of the law in order to have a clear conscience before God. Through faith in Christ Jesus the Christian’s conscience is free. “[H]owever, believers in this life are not perfectly, wholly, completive vel consummative [completely or entirely] renewed – even though their sin is completely covered by the perfect obedience of Christ so that this sin is not reckoned to them as damning, and even though the killing of the old creature and the renewal of their minds in the Spirit has begun – nonetheless, the old creature still continues to hang on in their nature and all of its inward and outward powers.”[1] In other words, those who have faith in Christ are justified before God yet continue to have the old sinful nature.

There’s nothing we can do to change our sinful nature.

From time to time, we may have calmed our consciences by pulling the plug on a sinful habit or two. Perhaps we flushed a few pills down the toilet, vowed not to gossip so much about our coworkers, or made a New Year’s resolution to stop straying from our spouse or losing our temper with our children. But, when it came to quitting sin once and for all, we simply couldn’t do it. Sin was as much a part of us as a heart that pumps blood, lungs that breathe air, and skin that produces hair. Even if we succeeded in cutting off one evil habit, a forest of other iniquities soon sprouted in its place. “Inherited sin in a man is like his beard,” Martin Luther once commented. “Though shaved off today so the man is very smooth … it grows back by tomorrow morning.”

The theological term for this pervasive presence of sin in every human life is “total depravity”—a unfortunate phrase that sounds at first as if people are completely evil, which isn’t true at all. “Depravity”—from the Latin word for “crooked”—simply means that God’s design for humanity has been twisted in the wrong direction; “total” reminds us that this twistedness touches everything we are and everything we choose. Every human deed done outside of Christ carries within it a seed of death. Michael Horton puts it this way:

The stain of sin [has corrupted] us physically, emotionally, psychologically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. That doesn’t mean … we are all brute savages who always carry out every possible evil; it does mean that there is no island of purity from which we might mount a campaign to save ourselves.
Bible Study with Luther: Galatians 5:16-26 - Lutheran Reformation.

“Challenge me, Lord. Change me, Lord. Expose my wickedness.”

J

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How did Angels inpreganate Human Women? How did the Angels kill and destroy? Truth is. You do not know. Nor do I. Our imperishable Bodies may very well be like the Angels. Or something completely new, that we cannot understand.

I did not know we were discussing classical Hinduism or some schools of Buddhism? I thought we were dealing with the Word, which tells us this. When a believer’s physical body dies today, their soul immediately enters the conscious, joyful presence of God while awaiting the final resurrection.

Luke 23:43: Jesus tells the dying thief on the cross,

"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

The thief didn’t dissolve; he was personally with Jesus.

Paul writes

“Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8

Philippians 1:23?

“I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.”

For unbelievers, the soul enters a state of conscious separation from God, awaiting final judgment (as seen in Jesus’ depiction of Sheol/Hades in Luke 16:19-31). Christianity does not teach that we remain disembodied souls forever. The ultimate Christian hope is the resurrection of the body.

At Christ’s return, the souls of believers are reunited with new, glorified, physical, immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). We will live, breathe, eat, and worship on a physically restored New Earth.

God can do whatever He chooses to do.
Peter

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Compelete misread of Scripture. Or, a twist of Scripture to claim it says something else.
Peter

1 Like
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Oh really, you want to drop terms like Hinduism and Buddhism, when you don’t really know what those religions are about? Nice try at a smear campaign, but it does not work with me.

Is the Book of Jude too small of a New Testament Book for you to consider? Is that why you bypassed the following?

Jude 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
KJV

That’s about the fallen angels in the days of Noah per Genesis 6. They left their original state in the Heavenly, and that is how they were able to impregnate the daughters of Adam. And it was the literal daughters of the man Adam they went after, which is shown in the Hebrew of Genesis 6. Satan knew that would be the lineage that Christ would be born through.

In Genesis 18, three men appear to Abraham at his tent door, and Abraham calls one of them Lord. And he is then shown later in that Chapter speaking with The Lord about how many will be destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah. When Abraham saw them at his tent door, he prepared EARTHLY FOOD for them, and they did eat. The two angels that appeared to Lot in the next Genesis 19 Chapter were the two that were with The Lord, and Lot prepared EARTHLY FOOD for them also.

Per Hebrews 13:2, we are told to be hospitable to strangers because some have entertained angels and didn’t know it.

The Israelites in the wildernes ate ‘manna’ from Heaven. Do you know what ‘manna’ means in the Hebrew? It’s means, ‘what is that’. That is what the Israelites said when they saw manna come down from heaven, looked like cakes, etc. Such comes the tradition of Angel’s Food Cake today.

So we can eat the heavenly ‘manna’, and angels can eat our earthly food. Does that not give you a clue about the flesh body and the angelic body having similarities? Especially since God has promised that the meek shall inherit the earth, and that means in the “spiritual body” that Apostle Paul taught.

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Not at all, as I was quoting the actual written Bible Scripture, not simply giving an opinion like you have been doing.

Instead of mocking me, maybe you ought to read what I quoted from Scripture about Jesus’ flesh being ‘quickened’ by The Spirit at some point before He ascended into Heaven…

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
KJV

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Either you believe those Scriptures as written, or you don’t. And so far, you reveal that you do not… believe those Scriptures as written. So I rest my case.

60

Davey, there’s no smear campaign here. I brought up Eastern concepts only because the ‘drop of water in the ocean’ metaphor is historically the classic definition of Nirvana or Brahman. I’m glad we both agree that the Bible teaches personal, conscious existence after death. Let’s look at the scriptures you raised.

You quoted 1 Corinthians 15:50 (“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”) to argue that we will not have physical bodies in eternity. But you are missing a massive biblical distinction.

In the Bible, “flesh and blood” is a Hebrew idiom meaning mortal, corruptible, fallen humanity (see Matthew 16:17, where Jesus says “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you,” or Ephesians 6:12). Paul is saying our current, decaying, mortal state cannot enter eternity. It must be glorified.

Luke 24:39: When the disciples saw the resurrected Jesus, they thought He was a spirit, exactly what you are arguing we will be. Jesus corrected them instantly:

“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Jesus had a physical, resurrected body of “flesh and bones.” He was not a disembodied spirit. If we are to be made like Him (1 John 3:2), our resurrected bodies will also be physical “flesh and bones,” not immaterial spirit-bodies.

You’re thinking “spiritual body” means “made of spirit.” In Greek, this is a linguistic misunderstanding. Paul contrasts a soma psuchikon (“natural body”) with a soma pneumatikon (“spiritual body”). Pneumatikos does not mean “made of spirit-stuff.” It means “driven/dominated by the Holy Spirit.”

In 1 Corinthians 2:15, Paul talks about the “spiritual man” (pneumatikos).

“The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.”

A spiritual man is not a floating ghost; he is a physical human being who is led and animated by the Holy Spirit. In the resurrection, our physical bodies will no longer be animated by weak, mortal life (psuche), but will be fully animated and immortalized by the Holy Spirit (pneuma).

Genesis 18 & Jude 6? I absolutely believe Genesis 6, Jude 6, and Genesis 18. Angels did manifest, and they did eat. But angels are a completely different order of creation than humans (Hebrews 2:16). God did not design humans to be angels. He designed humans to be physical rulers of a physical earth.

Jesus’ resurrected body was physical flesh and bones. He ate physical food (Luke 24:42-43) to prove He wasn’t a ghost. If we are to bear the image of the heavenly man (1 Cor 15:49), then our resurrection bodies will be physical like His—perfectly animated by the Holy Spirit (pneumatikos), no longer subject to the decay of ‘flesh and blood.’

“Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

We are not angels. Christ did not die to turn us into angels; He died to resurrect us as glorified, physical human beings to dwell on a physically restored New Earth. To deny the physical nature of the resurrection is to deny the very nature of Christ’s victory over the grave.
Peter

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Your mention of that “physical bodies” phrase is really all I need to know that tells me you don’t really understand about that other dimension of Spirit regarding Paul’s “spiritual body” of 1 Corinthians 15, which is the resurrection ‘type’ body.

Hollywood with all its horror movies and occultists with their trying to play around in that other dimension have duped many brethren away from what God’s Word actually teaches about that ‘other’ type body we already presently have.

The word ‘physical’ is too often associated with a flesh body, when Paul’s “spiritual body” has physical properties too, it’s just not made up of material matter of this earthly dimension.

Have you not understood what Apostle John said in John 4 that “God is a Spirit”? So likewise our Lord Jesus as The Christ before He came in the flesh was ‘a’ Spirit without a flesh body. Yet He appeared to Abraham, and even ate earthly food which Abraham prepared for Him, along with the two angels that appeared with Him to Abraham (Genesis 18).

Do I really… need to take you through all those Bible Scriptures about angels appearing on earth with the image of man, yet without flesh type bodies?

Have you not wondered how even God’s Garden of Eden (Paradise in the Septuagint) was once here upon this earth per Genesis 2 and He literally walked in it on earth? And then how in Revelation 21 & 22 He promised to return to this earth to live with us, and return His River that once here on earth too per Genesis?

Has your flesh deceived you that much that you forget all those Bible Scriptures about that?