Well zed! @Pater15 -Powerfully stated. You’ve shown how trusting God’s wisdom leads us into the very life He intends, and how His Spirit convicts us for our good. A needed reminder of Romans 8:6, that life and peace are found only in the Spirit.
J.
And That, Beloved, is my answer to you. What you said to me is my gift to you. A mirror to see clearly. Be free.
Sacrificial Love is a key on to itself. It allows me to step aside so I can better reflect you. That you might see yourself. And the truth you refuse to hear.
Love transforms. It heals. It saves.
Yes, children are needy. And selfish. But that does not make them monsters. It makes them human. None of us can exist or be well without Love. Maturity brings better with time if you allow your garden to bloom. But cut it away too soon and you will have nothing to show for your life. No one will visit you. And you will only have resentment. And blame. And the weight of failure. But you still have time to tell them that you love them. And then to show them that love. Waste not that time on me.
I love you and I set you free from the burden that brings you so much agony. God restores all things and makes them new. So again, with love, I command you in Christ- Be Free.
@Tillman
I’m wondering, can you look at a given sin and explain what makes it a sin? How do you define what a sin is?
Is a sin only a sin because God says so? Or does God have a reason behind naming a sin a sin?
Currious about your point of view here.
KP
God tells us what sin is or what it is not.
Exodus 20, The Ten Commandments.
”So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.” James 4:17
“Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21
Sin as a Condition of the Heart. Sin is not limited to outward actions. It includes: thoughts and attitudes such as pride, selfishness, and harmful intentions, Matthew 5:21–22, 27–28, omissions or failing to do what is right, James 4:17 JW.ORG.
Inherited sin—all humans are born with a sinful nature from Adam Romans 5:12; Psalm 51:5 GotQuestions.org.
The Bible teaches that sin is any action, thought, or attitude that violates God’s law. A rebellion against God’s authority and holiness. Inherited from Adam and passed down to all humanity. If continued willfully, separating us from God, with both spiritual and physical consequences.
Peter
Thank God I live by the New Law, and the New Covenant, and not the old letter of the Law. It is really a beautiful place to be- This side of the New Creation. I totally recommend it.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.
John 13: 34-35 34 I give you a new law. That law is, “Love each other.” As I have loved you, so you also love each other.35 This is how all people will know that you are my disciples.’
Galatians 6:2 "Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Romans 3:28 “a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Matthew 5:17
“Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” Revelation 14:12
By your reasoning, the Big Ten need not be obeyed anymore because Jesus came? Is it now ok to worship any other Gods, murder, or live in sexual immorality? Yes, we do not live by the old Jewish Law. But we do need to live by the BIBLE—the Word of God.
I know, I know, that means you have to stop sinning and seek forgiveness. You do not seem to like that part. But then again, I saw your other post. Perhaps we are making headway.
Peter
As you can see, I have answered this in another post.
Love does not forgive sin. Only Christ does.
Romans 13:8–10 is about how believers live after they have already been forgiven through Christ. Paul is describing the ethical shape of a life transformed by grace, not a new method of earning forgiveness. Paul is not saying Love fulfills the law. It doesn’t. It doesn’t erase past sin. Paul is saying that when you love your neighbor, you naturally live in harmony with God’s commands. Love is the expression of a forgiven life, not the cause of forgiveness.
Love is the ongoing debt of a redeemed person. Paul uses the metaphor of a “debt” to show that love is a continual responsibility. But this “debt” is not a payment for sin. It’s the fruit of a heart changed by grace.
Peter
I think you are spiraling, man. LOVE does not forgive sins? Really?
That is exactly what the Scripture I quoted says. LOVE is the fulfillment of the Law. Verbatim. If you can’t see what is right, there in front of you… how can I possibly help you?
I think you are holding on so tightly to this idea that you have of how everything works that you are failing to see what is right in front of you. You are reasoning away the Truth that is right there in plain sight.
I am not making up anything about the Law of LOVE replacing the Old Law, Everything I quoted and explained in previous posts and the Scriptures I used to validate it. It seems like you just can’t let go of this need to perform and reach perfection. But you cannot reach it, brother. You have to let go of this impossible expectation that you will ever meet the Old Law. It is impossible. No one can. Why do you think the Ancient Jewish People had daily sacrifices?
We are only saved in Christ. And the New Law guides us going forward after receiving Christ in our lives. Because, as Paul says, LOVE fulfills the Law.
Think you have it backward here @anon75384934
In Scripture, love is not the mechanism that forgives sin. The forgiveness of sin is grounded in the atoning work of Christ, specifically in His shed blood at the cross and vindicated in His resurrection.
The text is explicit. “Without shedding of blood is no remission” ~Hebrews 9:22. Forgiveness is juridical language. The Greek term ἄφεσις denotes release, cancellation, remission of debt. It is covenantal and sacrificial in structure. Sin incurs guilt. Guilt requires propitiation. Propitiation requires blood.
The cross is therefore not an illustration of love merely, but the objective satisfaction of divine justice.
Consider ~Ephesians 1:7, “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.”
The causal instrument is His blood. Redemption is accomplished by sacrificial substitution. Likewise ~Romans 3:24–26 grounds justification in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, whom God set forth as ἱλαστήριον, a mercy seat, through faith in His blood. That text explicitly ties forgiveness to the cross in order that God might be just and the justifier.
Now, love is not excluded. Love is the motive. “God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” ~Romans 5:8.
Love moves God to give the Son. But love does not cancel guilt apart from satisfaction. If love alone forgave, the cross would be unnecessary. The resurrection then would be redundant. Yet the resurrection is God’s public declaration that the sacrifice was accepted and the debt truly paid, ~Romans 4:25.
So we must distinguish carefully.
Love is the divine disposition that wills salvation.
The cross is the historical act that secures forgiveness.
The blood is the covenantal means of remission.
The resurrection is the vindication and validation of that accomplished atonement.
Therefore, sin is forgiven not by love abstractly considered, but by the crucified and risen Christ, whose sacrificial death satisfies justice and whose resurrection confirms justification.
Read Isaiah 53.
You agree?
J.
No. I’m giving you the Word of God. I am explaining to you what it means, and it is NOT what you are claiming. You keep deflecting and continuing to carry on with blasphemous stuff.
Absolutely. Are you saying apart from Jesus, love forgives sin? That is not a good road to go down.
Yes Love is what made God send Jesus. However, that does not mean Love saves or forgives. Jesus does. John 3:16-18 pretty much answers this. Forgiveness is not a guarantee.
Peter
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You are so close, @PeterC , Truly, you are. the question you need to ask is, What is LOVE and why is it so important for God to foster it within us that He would go so far as to Emulate it in the world through Christ?
LOVE is the missing piece. If you can just have Faith and believe. The Holy Spirit does not fail us. The Perfection you seek is found in LOVE. You only have to invite it into your heart.
Brother, I need to answer you carefully and directly, because what you are saying sounds spiritual, but it is not precise according to the Scriptures.
You say love is the missing piece, but Scripture never presents love as the instrument that removes sin. Forgiveness is grounded in the blood of Christ, not in our internal experience of love. “Without shedding of blood is no remission”[1]. Remission is tied to sacrificial death, not to emotional or relational disposition.
You say if you can just have faith and believe. Faith is indeed the instrument by which we receive justification, but faith has an object. It is not faith in love, nor faith in a feeling, but faith in the crucified and risen Christ. “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”[2]. The peace comes through Him, specifically through His atoning work, not through the cultivation of love within us.
You say the Holy Spirit does not fail us. That is true. But the Spirit’s ministry is to apply what Christ accomplished at the cross and sealed in the resurrection. He does not replace the cross, He testifies of it. “He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you”[3]. The Spirit points to Christ’s finished work, not to an internal perfection of love as the ground of forgiveness.
You speak of perfection found in love. In sanctification, love is indeed the bond of maturity. “And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness”[4]. But that text addresses growth in the regenerate community, not the forensic basis of pardon before God.
You say we only have to invite it into our heart. Scripture never frames salvation as inviting love into the heart. It frames salvation as repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, grounded in His death and resurrection. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”[5]. The resurrection is essential because it declares that the atoning death was accepted.
We must not confuse cause and fruit. Love is the fruit of the Spirit in those who are already justified. “The fruit of the Spirit is love”[6]. It flows from salvation. It does not produce salvation.
God’s love is the motive behind redemption. Christ’s blood is the means of redemption. Faith is the instrument by which we receive redemption. The resurrection is the divine vindication that redemption is accomplished. When we collapse those distinctions, we unintentionally shift the ground of forgiveness from Christ’s finished work to an inward condition.
And brother, that is too precious a doctrine to blur.
J.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. - KJV Hebrews 9:22 ↩︎
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. - KJV Romans 5:1 ↩︎
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. - KJV John 16:14 ↩︎
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. - KJV Colossians 3:14 ↩︎
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - KJV Romans 10:9 ↩︎
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, - KJV Galatians 5:22 ↩︎
1 John 4:7-12
**7 **Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. **9 **In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. **10 **In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. **11 **Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. **12 **No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
LOVE does forgive sin. Because God forgives sin. And God, as the above Scripture clearly states, is LOVE.
And as the above Scripture shows, LOVE is the pinnacle of all that God does.
And as the above Scripture explains, LOVE makes the first move. It is not your step toward repentance that leads God to move in any way to save you. God makes the first move to find you and bring you home. Like the Good Shepherd.
But the first son never understood his father’s LOVE for the prodigal.
The section you quoted is from First Epistle of John 4:7–12, and verse 10 is decisive. It does not say love forgives sin. It defines love in a specific historical act: “He loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” The term there is ἱλασμός, a propitiatory sacrifice. That is sacrificial, judicial, atoning language. The forgiveness is grounded in the Son being sent as propitiation. Love is the motive. The cross is the means.
If love itself forgave sin, propitiation would be unnecessary. Yet the text insists that God sent His Son precisely as propitiation. That means wrath is satisfied and guilt is removed through atoning death, not through the abstract attribute of love.
You say God is love, therefore love forgives sin.
But Scripture never argues that way. God is also holy, righteous, and just. “That he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus”[1]. The cross is necessary so that forgiveness does not violate justice.
Love does not override righteousness; it acts through a righteous satisfaction.
Notice also that 1 John 4:7–8 speaks of the evidential mark of regeneration. “Everyone that loveth is born of God.”
That is not the ground of forgiveness but the evidence of new birth.
John is describing the fruit of salvation, not the basis of it. This aligns with “The fruit of the Spirit is love”[2]. Fruit follows life. It does not produce it.
Then verse 12 says, “If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.” That is sanctification language. “Perfected” there refers to love reaching its intended maturity in the believing community. It does not say love atones for sin. It says love manifests the indwelling God.
If we want a direct statement about what removes sin, Scripture is unambiguous: “The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”[3]. Cleansing is tied to blood, not to the attribute of love in abstraction.
And the same epistle keeps the categories distinct: “We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins”[4].
Again, propitiation, not love as an isolated concept.
So we must be precise, don’t you think?
God is love in His nature.
Love moved Him to send the Son.
The Son became the propitiation.
The blood secures remission.
The resurrection vindicates the sufficiency of that sacrifice.
To say “love forgives sin” without qualification negates motive and mechanism, attribute and atonement, disposition and propitiation. John himself will not allow that distinction you make, because in the very chapter you quoted he anchors love in the sending of the Son as a sacrificial satisfaction.
Your denial of the cross and the atonement in Yeshua is frightening.
You agree?
J.
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. - KJV Romans 3:26 ↩︎
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, - KJV Galatians 5:22 ↩︎
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. - KJV 1 John 1:7 ↩︎
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins. - KJV 1 John 2:1–2 ↩︎
1Jn 4:1 Dearly beloved, stop believing every so-called spiritual utterance, but keep testing them to see whether they come from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 In this way you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spiritual utterance which owns that Jesus Christ has come in human form comes from God,
1Jn 4:3 and no spiritual utterance which disowns Jesus can come from God; it is the utterance of Antichrist. You have heard that it is coming, and right now it is already in the world.
1Jn 4:4 You are children of God, dear children, and you have conquered these men, because He who is in our hearts is greater than he who is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are children of the world; this is why they speak what the world inspires, and why the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are children of God. Whoever knows God by experience listens to us; whoever is not a child of God does not listen to us. This is the way to distinguish a true spiritual utterance from one that is false.
J.
@Tillman, the “new law” of John 13:34-35, for example, is not brand-new, but it is a new form of the old-covenant’s commands in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18:
Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
The different form of those commands is that we love God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the one God of the old covenant, because the Gospel of John reveals that he is that great God.
As a result, there is continuity and discontinuity between the old and new covenants, just as we are still ourselves, though renewed.
Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?